one of my friends was wondering, if you get pulled over by a officer and he asks to search your car and you say "no" what would happen? i doubt they can get a warrant that fast, so would they just tow the car?also i heard that if a officer has reasonable cause to search a car he/she can search the car but not your purse,bag,person?
Last edited by budweiser175; 07-02-2009 at 02:41 AM.
An officer has reasonable cause to search if he/she believes the car was used in an unlawful act. The only other way to search a car is by warrant or consent. Most people say give consent anyways anyways. If the officer sees an item in plain view/ odor of alcohol/drugs he can search. If you say no, the officer can't really do anything. Not a good idea because you'll get tickets for every vechicle code infraction on your car. I've never heard of the car being towed though. An officer can search anything in the, person, belongings, immediate area, or items in plain view. The search must be lawful and you must be notified of why you're being searched. Just let the officer search, you shouldn't have anything illegal with you anyways.
one of my friends was wondering, if you get pulled over by a officer and he asks to search your car and you say "no" what would happen? i doubt they can get a warrant that fast, so would they just tow the car?also i heard that if a officer has reasonable cause to search a car he/she can search the car but not your purse,bag,person?
I have told an officer no when he asked me if he could search. He asked me why he couldn't search and I told him I didn't have time for it. He wrote my ticket and let me go. If they don't have probable cause they can't search if you say no.
If they have reason to believe that you have something in your car like drugs that you will destroy before they can get papers then they can search with out them. They can also have another car come and watch you while they go see the magistrate to get papers if it is that bad. Most of the time like others have said its better just to say yes. The only reason i could see somebody getting it towed would be because most places have dept. rule that anything in their impound yard or they get towed has to have an inventory sheet filled out. That includes everything in the car. I am not sure what the reason for getting the car towed would be unless it was unfit for the highway or used in an illegal act.
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An officer has reasonable cause to search if he/she believes the car was used in an unlawful act. The only other way to search a car is by warrant or consent. Most people say give consent anyways anyways. If the officer sees an item in plain view/ odor of alcohol/drugs he can search. If you say no, the officer can't really do anything. Not a good idea because you'll get tickets for every vechicle code infraction on your car. I've never heard of the car being towed though. An officer can search anything in the, person, belongings, immediate area, or items in plain view. The search must be lawful and you must be notified of why you're being searched. Just let the officer search, you shouldn't have anything illegal with you anyways.
Good explanation However, there are other warrant exceptions to a lawful search.
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Originally Posted by tistan
I have told an officer no when he asked me if he could search. He asked me why he couldn't search and I told him I didn't have time for it. He wrote my ticket and let me go. If they don't have probable cause they can't search if you say no.
That is not correct. As noted above there are many exceptions that allow a lawful search without consent and with as little as reasonable suspicion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Cobra
If they have reason to believe that you have something in your car like drugs that you will destroy before they can get papers then they can search with out them. They can also have another car come and watch you while they go see the magistrate to get papers if it is that bad. Most of the time like others have said its better just to say yes.
That wont fly. The Supreme Court has ruled that you cant extend the length of a traffic stop to accommodate a fishing expedition. If the officer has probable cause, that combined with the automobile exception allows for a warrantless search. If there is no P.C. or other exception the time it would take to get to a magistrate would be beyond the time for a completed traffic stop and thus would turn into a siezure of the person and vehicle in contravention of the 4th amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure. Same applies to calling a K-9. As long as the total stop does not take any longer a K-9 can be utilized. Such a K-9 sniff is not considered a 4th amendment search.
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Automobile searches are treated a little differently because of "the inherant mobility" of the vehicle and it's likelihood of a failure of justice. If there is PC to search..it can be searched w/o warrant or detained until warrant. I might add courts have ruled that detention is not long enough to be unreasonable. i.e. arrest. In this state, a drug dog alerting car is PC to search..
As to towing...a defendant parked his car and walked away...drug dog alerted on car..another dude came to pick up car for - presumably the driver. We towed the car [to secure it] , had a search warrant issued and Motion to Suppress was denied...
If they ask, it's because they have no probable cause. You can say no and that may be the end of it. If they are convinced you have drugs in the car, they can hold you until an canine arrives and does a walk around. However, there is a limit to the amount of time they can hold you waiting on that canine. The last word I heard thru appealate courts was that much beyond 45 minutes is considered unreasonable. Then again, if they just want to get the drugs and guns and blow any chance of conviction, they will just enter the vehicle without your permission. Once they get the contraband, you'll never get it back. A bad search doesn't get your good returned...it just prevents a conviction for the offense.
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If they ask, it's because they have no probable cause. You can say no and that may be the end of it. If they are convinced you have drugs in the car, they can hold you until an canine arrives and does a walk around. However, there is a limit to the amount of time they can hold you waiting on that canine. The last word I heard thru appealate courts was that much beyond 45 minutes is considered unreasonable. Then again, if they just want to get the drugs and guns and blow any chance of conviction, they will just enter the vehicle without your permission. Once they get the contraband, you'll never get it back. A bad search doesn't get your good returned...it just prevents a conviction for the offense.
Officers are trained to asked for consent regardless of P.C. as it is more definitive.
Although not 100% on topic, this is closely related to the question imposed by the OP. Thought I'd throw it out there.
A long time friend in law enforcement passed this info on to me. He said.... Just say "No" to all requests to search your vehicle and be smart, accept the officers offer to "Remain Silent" when asked if you want to talk. They aren't going to ask to search your car unless they suspect something or are hoping to find something! If they truly suspect something your best bet is to STFU and refuse any request to search your vehicle or answer any questions.
Know your rights gentleman! Even if you have nothing to hide there can still be serious repercussions from allowing law enforcement to search your car or by answering his or her questions and saying something you really shouldn't have, or in a way that could be misconstrued. Watch these for some good insight into all of this... Videos are long.... but well worth the time to watch. You get both sides of the issue. Both Lawer and Law Enforcement points of view. Vids are big so you'll probably have to click their header and watch them from the main YouTube page.
Good explanation However, there are other warrant exceptions to a lawful search.
That is not correct. As noted above there are many exceptions that allow a lawful search without consent and with as little as reasonable suspicion.
That wont fly. The Supreme Court has ruled that you cant extend the length of a traffic stop to accommodate a fishing expedition. If the officer has probable cause, that combined with the automobile exception allows for a warrantless search. If there is no P.C. or other exception the time it would take to get to a magistrate would be beyond the time for a completed traffic stop and thus would turn into a siezure of the person and vehicle in contravention of the 4th amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure. Same applies to calling a K-9. As long as the total stop does not take any longer a K-9 can be utilized. Such a K-9 sniff is not considered a 4th amendment search.
so they cant have another car come watch you while they get papers? i thought if they have no reasonable cause they can't bring a k-9 to search the car?time for a completed traffic stop?so there is a certain time to how long a traffic stop is supposed to be? my old neighbor was saying something that you can file a paper on the spot and sell your car for a $1 to a friend or something so they cant search it? it was something weird like that, then you can buy it back?
also this is off topic but my school would take our cell phones and would look through our texts? i didn't think they are allowed to do that? if we refuse,took out battery,sim card,etc. we would either get kicked out,suspended,etc and keep in mind i do go to a good and well known public school in my area. they even try filling a chin or something like that so that it would go through court?
Most "public schools" bar or limit the use and possession of cellphones and your Board of Education may- like mine- specifically allow for the confiscation of cellphones and their contents. You have VERY LITTLE expectation of privacy at public schools.
As for PC to search and developing PC, it all depends on the circumstances. There is no specific time in which an investigatory detention becomes an arrest as again- it depends on the circumstances.
When we did motor vech law they told us that we can hold the car as long as a normal traffic stop should take. so if the dog can not get to the stop in time you can not hold them. Also we were told that you can hold the car the same time in order to get papers which only takes about 5 min here. a smart lawyer is going to say that you held them to long or you did not have PC. As long as we articulate the reason for the length of the stop it should fly.
so they cant have another car come watch you while they get papers? i thought if they have no reasonable cause they can't bring a k-9 to search the car?time for a completed traffic stop?so there is a certain time to how long a traffic stop is supposed to be? my old neighbor was saying something that you can file a paper on the spot and sell your car for a $1 to a friend or something so they cant search it? it was something weird like that, then you can buy it back?
You are confusing two terms of art; probable cause and reasonable suspicion. There must be some reasonable suspicion to call a K-9. If not it is a waste of time and a fishing expedition. Your old neighbor has watched too much tv.
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Originally Posted by jshen
As for PC to search and developing PC, it all depends on the circumstances. There is no specific time in which an investigatory detention becomes an arrest as again- it depends on the circumstances.
Indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Cobra
When we did motor vech law they told us that we can hold the car as long as a normal traffic stop should take. so if the dog can not get to the stop in time you can not hold them. Also we were told that you can hold the car the same time in order to get papers which only takes about 5 min here. a smart lawyer is going to say that you held them to long or you did not have PC. As long as we articulate the reason for the length of the stop it should fly.
That is a good basis for the officer on the street. There is also a reason that larger agencies have the ability to contact the "duty" State's Attorney to ask for advice on stops that fall into the gray area.
My take is that under no circumstances should you ever allow a cop to search your vehicle. I have never took any drugs and haven't drank any alcohol in over 5 years and would still never let a cop search my vehicle. As far as the K-9 unit not being part of the 4th amendment, that is just another way the government proves that they do what they want. Short story for example. My brother, his gf, me and my wife were going into town one day. We were in my parents van since it was all 4 of us. A cop saw us and noticed that my brother didn't have his seatbelt on. So he pulls us over and ask my brother to get out of the van. When he does, my brother just leaves the door open. Later the cop made the rest of us get out of the van also. He then asked my brother if he could search the vehicle. My brother told the cop that he would rather he didn't search it. So, he went and got the K-9 unit out of his vehicle to search the van. In my opinion, that dog should have no more right to search that vehicle than the cop did. Since my brother happen to leave the door open, the cop said the dog had the right to go in there if it smelt something. The dog went right past the door and the cop pulled it back to the door several times to make it go in there, even though it didn't smell anything. So, after all this ranting, I just don't believe the dog should have the right to search a vehicle if you don't give the cop permission to search it. If I kill that dog, I would be charged just like I killed a cop, so the dog should have no more right than the cop, if in fact the dog is considered a cop also.
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Last edited by 93DangerRanger; 07-13-2009 at 01:02 PM.
My take is that under no circumstances should you ever allow a cop to search your vehicle. I have never took any drugs and haven't drank any alcohol in over 5 years and would still never let a cop search my vehicle. As far as the K-9 unit not being part of the 4th amendment, that is just another way the government proves that they do what they want. Short story for example. My brother, his gf, me and my wife were going into town one day. We were in my parents van since it was all 4 of us. A cop saw us and noticed that my brother didn't have his seatbelt on. So he pulls us over and ask my brother to get out of the van. When he does, my brother just leaves the door open. Later the cop made the rest of us get out of the van also. He then asked my brother if he could search the vehicle. My brother told the cop that he would rather he didn't search it. So, he went and got the K-9 unit out of his vehicle to search the van. In my opinion, that dog should have no more right to search that vehicle than the cop did. Since my brother happen to leave the door open, the cop said the dog had the right to go in there if it smelt something. The dog went right past the door and the cop pulled it back to the door several times to make it go in there, even though it didn't smell anything. So, after all this ranting, I just don't believe the dog should have the right to search a vehicle if you don't give the cop permission to search it. If I kill that dog, I would be charged just like I killed a cop, so the dog should have no more right than the cop, if in fact the dog is considered a cop also.
The dog did the exact same search a human officer would do. It used its eyes, ears, and mostly nose to smell for certain controlled substances. An officer uses the exact same senses when searching the outside of a vehicle. If he detects the scent of alcohol or marijuana, that's PC to search the rest of the vehicle. In turn, if a K-9 with its heightened sense of smell detects controlled substances, it will indicate such and provide PC to search the rest of the vehicle.
So it's the same thing whether it's a human or dog, but the dog has much better senses.
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[quote= a smart lawyer is going to say that you held them to long or you did not have PC. As long as we articulate the reason for the length of the stop it should fly.[/QUOTE]
No-any lawyer worth his fee will file a motion to suppress as that's the only avenue of defense/relief..evidence suppressed- case most always goes as well..
So, after all this ranting, I just don't believe the dog should have the right to search a vehicle if you don't give the cop permission to search it. If I kill that dog, I would be charged just like I killed a cop, so the dog should have no more right than the cop, if in fact the dog is considered a cop also.
So after taking time to read that post- Forrest Gump comes to mind
In Washington state PC will not get you a search, just a warrant. Per some case law from the 1980s. Just a consideration for those of you that make it to the Evergreen state.
Also, per a recent SCOTUS ruling, searches incident to arrest are limited to searches for evidence of the crime that caused the arrest. No more searches for drugs when arresting someone for driving without a license... but towing and inventory is still fair game.
Anyone know anything about visible "marijuana gleanings"? My brother had a KSP dog alert like crazy on his truck during a fishing expedition and when an exhaustive search of the vehicle returned no drugs, he was accused of having visible marijuana residue on the floor of his truck. I asked my cousin about it (CBP) and he has never heard of such a thing.
In Washington state PC will not get you a search, just a warrant. Per some case law from the 1980s. Just a consideration for those of you that make it to the Evergreen state.
That is not accurate. Probable cause plus exigency is a warrant exception in EVERY state. The automobile exception is a warrant exception in EVERY state.
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Originally Posted by EvergreenSVT
Also, per a recent SCOTUS ruling, searches incident to arrest are limited to searches for evidence of the crime that caused the arrest. No more searches for drugs when arresting someone for driving without a license... but towing and inventory is still fair game.
You are oversimplifying. The Court case is a limit on New York v. Belton that pertains to a search of the vehicle after the person has exited the vehicle and arrested not within reach of the vehicle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvergreenSVT
Anyone know anything about visible "marijuana gleanings"? My brother had a KSP dog alert like crazy on his truck during a fishing expedition and when an exhaustive search of the vehicle returned no drugs, he was accused of having visible marijuana residue on the floor of his truck. I asked my cousin about it (CBP) and he has never heard of such a thing.
I'm not sure if commercial vehicles fall on the same line, but.. We have several state troopers here in KS that will do a "random" inspection, vehicle and driver. Then he searches the truck to find documents that don't "jive" with the logbook (ie: fuel tickets, reciepts, anything with a date/time) I know of one trooper that searches the truck everytime he has an inspection, no matter what. Would looking for those items, even if fuel tickets and several documents have been provided be ok?? I have talked to several guys that have been searched and it doesn't matter how much you provide they search the truck looking for more. When does it go beyond probable cause??
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Simply, car searches, incident-to-arrest of one of the occupants, are finished. No automatic search of the passenger compartment, and no searching the "wingspan" of someone arrested from the vehicle.
Of course, searches may still be conducted based upon probable cause and consent, where applicable, but the days of the automatic, post-arrest vehicle search are over.
Under the “search incident to arrest” exception, when a suspect is arrested, the police may search the suspect’s person and his “grab area.” The “grab area” is defined as the entire area where a suspect can potentially reach for a weapon or to destroy evidence. The United States Supreme Court has held that when a suspect has been arrested, the police may search the passenger compartment of his vehicle even if the suspect has been taken out of the vehicle and secured outside of the vehicle. However, the New Jersey Supreme Court has held that, under the New Jersey Constitution, if a suspect has been removed from his vehicle and has been secured outside of the vehicle, the passenger compartment of the vehicle is no longer part of the “grab area,” and therefore, the police cannot search the passenger compartment without a warrant unless some other exception to the warrant requirement exists.
Basically if a LEO doesn't see or smell anything they are not allowed to even stick they're hand past the window into the car without a warrant. But we all know they're are many loop holes.
However, there are other warrant exceptions to a lawful search.
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