(GAS)Fuel System Upgrade Options: What You Need To Know

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SVT GI

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This is a thread I did on another forum and thought about how many fuel system related questions come up here that seem to be repetative, so I thought I'd share with svtp.

This thread is to give people options to fuel their HP goals. If you have a Terminator, whether supercharged or turbo’d, a Terminator setup in another type of car, or IF it is feasible to install this type of setup in your car, then this will point you in the right direction. Most people upgrade their systems to the next level just for peace of mind. Some build their systems within a specific HP range and buy the minimum required components to support it, either for budget reasons or they just can’t justify going to the next level. There is nothing wrong with any of these reasons.

I’m simply giving you BASIC options for certain HP goals you may have. Many will argue that they can extend the HP range of certain setups, while others will argue that you cannot. I’m not here to say that one setup is better than the other in terms of specific components and possible combinations of those components. Every car will not respond the exact same way with given HP mod’s and fuel system components however, they are close. There are too many variables that come into play, built engine vs. stock, boost, timing, type of fuel from pump to C16 & E85. Those are just some of the things that YOU need to think about when planning your fuel system.

Data logging is your friend. Monitor your injector duty cycle and your Fuel Pump Duty Cycle (FPDC) when determining whether you need to make that next step in your setup. The trick is determining whether you want your system running at max capacity with higher FPDC’s (95+), or having a system with a little more room to grow and lower FPDC. The lower the FPDC, the more efficient it will be.

- A few things can slightly raise or lower your FPDC.
--Increasing your fuel line size will decrease FPDC.
--Installing a Boost-a-Pump (BAP) will decrease FPDC.
--Installing higher flowing pumps with the correct wiring/adapters will decrease FPDC.
--Installing the “Wire Upgrade” will decrease FPDC
--Running a system at or close to capacity will increase FPDC
--Maxing Injectors and increasing the base fuel pressure to make the injector “act” like a bigger one will increase FPDC.

^^^None of these are the “wrong” way or “right” way. If your system can compensate for one or the other, then it is up to you.

Keep this in mind when you are selecting your pumps. The information I give you is an average of tested pumps. Restriction, voltage and PSI pumps are tested at will vary the flow rate and this is where the great debate of which pumps to use in your system comes in. One example is here: http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/BAPsvtFocus_kens.pdf

Options:
First and foremost, I believe every car can benefit from the wire upgrade kit even on the stock ones. There have been reports of a drop in voltage as much as 2+V from the battery back to the pumps. If your pumps can not get the proper voltage, they can’t deliver the proper fuel as efficiently, this leads to higher FPDC. Data logging voltage and FPDC will let you know where you stand. This can be an issue with a failing alternator as well. More troubleshooting may be required.

--The wire upgrade consists of an 8GA wire ran from the battery post located on the under-hood fuse box, to a fuse, a relay and the FPDM in the trunk.
--You can buy here: Lethal Performance FPDM/BAP Wiring Upgrade Kit [LP-BAPREWIRE] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs
--If you are resourceful, you can build your own as well.

~500 HP
(Jimmysidecarr edit--> It is typically at this approximate power level (480-500+) and beyond that the stock MAF will peg. This will produce a lean out and damage an engine just as easily, as not enough fuel delivery, I felt a MAF mention was needed near the beginning of this post, since it is now in the the sticky links list. Don't forget the MAF! It can be replaced with a unit capable of monitoring larger amounts of air, or you can use a device like the MAFia which alters and elevates the stock MAF's Max air flow reading capability.
Stock 03/04 Cobra fuel system: This is a Return-less style fuel system, consists of two fuel pumps that flow 119lph each, a single Fuel Pump Driver Module (FPDM), 39lb injectors, 5/16ths fuel line and fuel rails with a .26 I.D.

--“Most” cars can achieve this HP goal on the factory fuel system.
--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--Some cars may need a BAP.
--Very few cars will need a bigger injector. They generally max out about 520-530HP.
--Again, Data log

~600HP

--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--BAP.
--60lb Injectors.
This is about the limit for this setup. Although some have stretched it to ~650HP

OR

--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--60lb Injectors.
--Dual Ford GT Pumps (215-235 lph each). Either in a modified stock fuel hat (not recommended due to possible leaks, PPRV delete issues. But it CAN be done) or a FORE Precision fuel hat specifically designed for the GT pumps. Fore Precision Works 03-04 Cobra Dual Pump Billet Top Hat [0037-015] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs And if you are retaining the stock fuel line, you’ll need this Fore Precision Hat to Stock Fuel Line Adapter Fititng [0037-022] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs to complete it.
--Single Modified FPDM or Dual FPDM’s. Many people have their own beliefs on the two, I will leave it up to you. However, to run a dual FPDM setup, you will need a harness adapter. You can buy here Lethal Performance Dual FPDM Wire Harness Kit [LP-DUALFPDMKIT] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs Or…You can build your own or contact my buddy Derik here WestCoastMustangs.com
--A Zone 5 MDM (Mega Drive Module) or MDM Jr. in place of the Single modified or dual FPDM’s

~650HP

--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--60lb Injectors.
--Dual Ford GT Pumps.
--Single modified FPDM, dual FPDM or MDM
--Some people upgrade the stock feed line with an -8 or -10 line at this point.

~700HP

(This is typically the point where people convert to a return style setup. More on that later…)
--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--60lb Injectors. (700HP is about the max for 60lb injectors in a return-less system. Recommend Data Log)
--Dual Ford GT Pumps.
--Single modified FPDM, dual FPDM or MDM
--Some people upgrade the stock feed line with an -8 or -10. Will need this Lethal Performance -8an to Stock Fuel Rail Adapter [LP-8ANRAILADAPTER] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs if keeping the stock fuel rails.
--Some upgrade fuel rails.
^^^This is about the max for this setup. Data log.

OR

--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--60lb Injectors. (700HP is about the max for 60lb injectors in a return-less system. Recommend Data Log)
--Dual Ford GT Pumps.
--Single modified FPDM, dual FPDM or MDM
--BAP

OR

--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--60lb Injectors. (700HP is about the max for 60lb injectors in a return-less system. Recommend Data Log)
--Triple Ford GT Pumps. Requires FORE Precision’s triple hat setup Fore Precision Works 03-04 Cobra Triple Pump Billet Top Hat [0037-017] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs and Fore Precision Works 3-into-1 Y-Block with Fittings [FPW-321Y] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs
--MDM
--Upgrade feed line.
--Some upgrade fuel rails.

~750HP

--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--80lb Injectors
--Dual Ford GT Pumps.
--Single modified FPDM, dual FPDM or MDM
--BAP

OR

--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--80lb Injectors
--Triple Ford GT Pumps.
--MDM
--Upgrade feed line.
--Some upgrade fuel rails.

~800+HP

--Install the Wire Upgrade.
--80lb Injectors
--Triple Ford GT Pumps.
--MDM
--Upgrade feed line.
--Upgrade fuel rails.
^^^Complete kit here Lethal Performance 03-04 Cobra Triple Pump Fuel System [LP-0304COBTRIPLEPUMPSYS] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

That’s about it for the RETURN-LESS Fuel System.
Now, let’s talk a little about converting to a RETURN style fuel system. This is where the fuel is returned back to the tank. Converting to a return style takes some commitment, there are parts that are needed and parts that are deleted obviously. A lot of controversy arises when talking about converting to a return style. Some “purest” of the return-less style will shun you. Much like swapping out the IRS of a Cobra for a SRA, to each his own I say. Some people make the switch because they have had drivability issues with a high HP return-less system. Whatever the case may be, I will not take away from the return-less system. It works!
FOR THE RECORD: I am a bit biased of the return style system. I have been running it in both mine and my wife’s Cobra’s for a couple years. My reasoning may differ from others and not justifiable by others. I have built a fuel system from stock to the ~700HP level in all the steps listed in the return-less options above. I spent a lot of $$$ swapping out parts to get to the next level. My problem is that I am never satisfied at my current HP level. On our second build, I went from stock fuel system straight to return style.

Options:
In a return style fuel system, there are a few different ways of accomplishing this. I won’t get into how the feed/return lines are routed under the car or in the engine compartment. Although I will gladly give you my recommendations anytime, just ask. A lot of it has to do with personal preference and aesthetics. However, I will tell you that your regulator will need to be mounted POST fuel rails, this is due to the boost/vacuum port on the regulator and how it works with the fuel demand of the engine. The type of fuel line, the size of feed/return line, type of regulator and type of fuel rails is entirely up to you.

Basically there are two ways of mounting the pump(s), externally and internally (to the tank). Some people opt for the external mount such as this Aeromotive A1000 Hot Rod EFI Kit [AER-17151] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs and sumped tank or some type of fuel cell. Some people prefer the stock or the “sleeper” look and keep the pumps internal. Dual GT pumps CAN be used in a return style system. Many will claim that they are not built to run at max voltage continuously. That’s for you to decide, I will use the Walbro GSS342 (250-280 lph each) as a reference because they flow slightly more than the GT pump. You will also need to delete the FPDM. If you are working with an 03/04 Cobra, you can tap into the green/yellow stripe wire from FPDM harness for your signal wire. I’m not sure what color the wire is on other models/years.

Stock to ~850HP

--Dual Walbro GSS342’s. Requires FORE Precisions dual Walbro hat Fore Precision Works 03-04 Cobra Dual Walbro Pump Billet Hat [0037-016] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs
--Upgraded fuel rails
-- -8 feed/-6 return lines as a minimum
--Wire Upgrade (to supply relay(s))
--Relay(s) (I recommend one for each pump)
--Some sort of inline fuel filter Aeromotive SS Series In-Line Fuel Filter (40 Micron Element) [12303] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs
--80lb Injectors (60lb injectors are good to ~750HP in a return setup)
--Regulator Aeromotive A1000 Injected Bypass Fuel Pressure Regulator [13101] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs
--Regulator gauge
--Miscellaneous fittings and fuel line clamps
--You can get a complete system here Lethal Performance 03-04 Cobra Return Style Fuel System [LP-0304COBRETURN] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs minus wiring and injectors.

OR

--Your choice of external pump
--Upgraded fuel rails
-- -8 feed/-6 return lines as a minimum
--Your sumped tank or fuel cell
--Some sort of inline fuel filter
--80lb Injectors (60lb injectors are good to ~750HP in a return setup)
--Regulator
--Regulator gauge
--Miscellaneous fittings and fuel line clamps
--Miscellaneous wiring

~850+HP

--Triple Walbro GSS342’s. Requires FORE Precisions triple Walbro hat Fore Precision Works 03-04 Cobra Triple Walbro Pump Billet Hat [FPW-GSS342TRIPLE] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs
--A 3 line adapter Fore Precision Works 3-into-1 Y-Block with Fittings [FPW-321Y] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs
--Upgraded fuel rails
-- -8 feed/-6 return lines as a minimum
--Wire Upgrade (to supply relay(s))
--Relay(s) (I recommend one for each pump)
--Some sort of inline fuel filter
--80lb Injectors
--Regulator
--Regulator gauge
--Miscellaneous fittings and fuel line clamps

OR

--Your choice of external pump
--Upgraded fuel rails
-- -8 feed/-6 return lines as a minimum
--Your sumped tank or fuel cell
--Some sort of inline fuel filter
--80lb Injectors
--Regulator
--Regulator gauge
--Miscellaneous fittings and fuel line clamps
--Miscellaneous wiring
--Or get a complete kit Aeromotive Fuel Systems : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

That's about it for the Return Style Systems
The above systems will work for many types of fuels. E85 systems will require more flow per given HP range. I will leave that up to the E85 experts to comment on appropriate setups.

Keep long term $$$ and HP goals in mind when deciding your setup. If you are resourceful enough, you can find many deals or parts and pieces to systems that will be easier on the wallet than just going out and buying new complete systems for your needs. Don’t be afraid to buy used parts when building your setup.

I hope this helps someone when deciding which route to take with their fuel needs. GL!
 
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Jimmysidecarr

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SVT GI

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Thanks Jimmy, I wasn't 100% on where to post it. I figured you'd catch it and put it in the right place.

Just noticed a few of the links I attached aren't working. Something got lost in translation. I'll try to get them fixed ASAP.


EDIT: Links should be good now.
 
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Jimmysidecarr

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Thanks Jimmy, I wasn't 100% on where to post it. I figured you'd catch it and put it in the right place.

Just noticed a few of the links I attached aren't working. Something got lost in translation. I'll try to get them fixed ASAP.

Do you think it would be appropriate and possible if you added in the points at which the stock MAF has been known to peg?

Since a pegged MAF will still result in a lean out even if the fuel mods have been done, it might be an engine saver for some of the new people who are buying and modding their Terminators for the first time.

That's the only thing I can think of, as far as adding any info goes. It really is an awesome collection of EXTREMELY valuable, relevant and NEEDED information.:rockon::beer:
 

stx_9

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Wow!! Awesome info. This has certainly answered a bunch of my question. Thanks SVT GI. Well done:thumbsup:
 

SVT GI

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Do you think it would be appropriate and possible if you added in the points at which the stock MAF has been known to peg?

Since a pegged MAF will still result in a lean out even if the fuel mods have been done, it might be an engine saver for some of the new people who are buying and modding their Terminators for the first time.

That's the only thing I can think of, as far as adding any info goes. It really is an awesome collection of EXTREMELY valuable, relevant and NEEDED information.:rockon::beer:

Initially it was all about fuel system "specific" components but you are absolutely correct. A pegged MAF will reak havoc on a car with a properly setup fuel system.

I'll have to dig up some of my MAF/MAFia info, meantime if someone has SOLID experience with MAF's, post it and we'll add it.
 

SPoole

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What about stacking pumps? I have a 255 in tank, and a Bosch 044 in line with a -8 feed -6 return system and 72lb injectors. I expect between 700-750 to the wheels and was wondering if the in tank in line combo is a safe setup? Not sure if the in tank hinders the in line or vise versa.
 

Digital

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This is an amazing sticky. I've had almost every level and type of combination on that "chart". It cost me a ton of money. It's so easy to just go return once and never bother again. AMAZING thread.
I currently run the first of the two 850+ setups exactly. I'll be switching over to a much larger injector and bigger pumps when I go for the second turbo and e85. That's where the second option comes into play. You should really add a 1000hp+ e85 option. It should look like this:
--Your choice of external pump 1500hp+
--Upgraded fuel rails
-- -10 feed/-8 return lines as a minimum
--Your sumped tank or fuel cell
--Some sort of inline fuel filter
--145lb+ Injectors
--Regulator 1500hp+
--Regulator gauge
--Miscellaneous fittings and fuel line clamps
--Miscellaneous wiring
 
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SVT GI

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Wow great info in here :beer:
Thanks!

Wow!! Awesome info. This has certainly answered a bunch of my question. Thanks SVT GI. Well done:thumbsup:

Thanks, glad it helped :beer:

Very nice thanks for all the info and hard work.

Thanks. The hard work was actually having to go through lessons learned and limits of particular fuel setups and costing me $$$ over the years LOL.

What about stacking pumps? I have a 255 in tank, and a Bosch 044 in line with a -8 feed -6 return system and 72lb injectors. I expect between 700-750 to the wheels and was wondering if the in tank in line combo is a safe setup? Not sure if the in tank hinders the in line or vise versa.

To be honest, I havent stacked pumps since my old foxbody days when 500hp was the almighty goal. You are going to be making a lot of hp with your setup. My opinion, I wouldn't run pumps in series with your hp goals. You will find its limit, and to what cost?

My recommendations: First, if your tuner feels they can make it work with your current fuel setup, datalog and monitor the heck out of your A/F. Second, upgrade to a single pump like the A1000 or bigger. Or, convert to a Terminator style setup.

This is an amazing sticky. I've had almost every level and type of combination on that "chart". It cost me a ton of money. It's so easy to just go return once and never bother again. AMAZING thread.
I currently run the first of the two 850+ setups exactly. I'll be switching over to a much larger injector and bigger pumps when I go for the second turbo and e85. That's where the second option comes into play. You should really add a 1000hp+ e85 option. It should look like this:
--Your choice of external pump 1500hp+
--Upgraded fuel rails
-- -10 feed/-8 return lines as a minimum
--Your sumped tank or fuel cell
--Some sort of inline fuel filter
--145lb+ Injectors
--Regulator 1500hp+
--Regulator gauge
--Miscellaneous fittings and fuel line clamps
--Miscellaneous wiring

Thanks Digital, you have experienced the exact reason for me building this thread. To help others decide on a fuel setup with a pre determined hp goal in mind so that they are not spending $$$ unnecessarily.

And thanks for your recommendation. I haven't been fortunate enough to build any 1000+hp cars. This is usually when these guys step to a stand-alone setup like FAST. Although, I don't see any reason why your list will have any problem achieving that goal. I'd be interested to see your results if thats your plan.

great thread, thanks for posting :beer:

Thanks!
 
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DarkMach1

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This is money! i dont think Ill ever have to make a new thread titled "how much fuel do I need" after reading this. Thanks a bunch.
 

Digital

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Thanks Digital, you have experienced the exact reason for me building this thread. To help others decide on a fuel setup with a pre determined hp goal in mind so that they are not spending $$$ unnecessarily.

And thanks for your recommendation. I haven't been fortunate enough to build any 1000+hp cars. This is usually when these guys step to a stand-alone setup like FAST. Although, I don't see any reason why your list will have any problem achieving that goal. I'd be interested to see your results if thats your plan.

Lots of cobras running around with 1k+ hp on the stock comp. Also you need so much more fuel at 1k hp for e85 it really needs to be like a 1500hp fuel system. I'd like to see closer to 1500rwhp on e85 eventually so I'm scaling for 2k+
 

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stacking pumps like above is not a good setup i tried this on my 95 bird 255 in tank and 255 in both high pressure i made 495 at the wheels the fuel system was fine for like if you were passing a car but a drag strip pass it would go lean, so i upgraded to 2 255 hp in tank and know im making 575rwhp thru and automatic and the car is not so ping senstive cause its not running out of fuel

Robert
 

20SVT03

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awesome post! im just curous why ive never heard of the wiring upgrade even though it seems to be the most important fuel system upgrade you can do.
 
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