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06-28-2009, 04:37 PM #1
'96-'98 Cobra with INTERCOOLED KB
I'm sure that most of you are familiar with the fact that all KB kits for the '96-'98 Cobras are non-intercooled. There simply wasn't enough room to drop an '03 Cobra style intercooler between the B-series dual port heads. With no intercooler and no bypass, these kits and cars also seem to run into a brick wall in power production at around 370-400 rwhp.
I am in the process of rebuilding my '96 Mystic, and I want to overcome this problem. I have a spare set of '99 Cobra heads, and I want to use them along with a 2.1 Liter intercooled kit for a '99 Cobra. Has anyone done this before? If so, what kind of problems can I expect? Would KB be able to offer any tech support?
I just wish KB would take my 1.5L in on trade. I'm not enthused about spending $4k on a rebuild and another $6k on an entirely new supercharger kit.
06-28-2009, 10:51 PM #2
- Join Date
- March 2009
to tell u the truth kb is good really good but prochargers f series blowers are nasty bro and u can get u and intercooler or run u a water meth injection for and extra 400 buck if u put the f1a cog driven u can expect about 650 maybe a little more bump to the f1r cog drive stock heads stock cams u can pull around 800 maybe more just my 2 cents
06-29-2009, 07:41 PM #3
Thanks for the info, but I'm a stickler for positive diplacement blowers. I can't stand the centrifugal huffers. I like the instant torque and big block feel of the twin screw. I liked the positive diplacement blowers even before they were cool. I remember when the original TS1000 blower came out for the 5.0 Foxes. It was the oddball in a market flooded by Paxton and Vortech. I'd rather go back to a naturally aspirated big bore stroker than defect to the centrifugal camp.
06-30-2009, 11:00 PM #4
great idea... hope you get some answers....twin screw FTW
07-08-2009, 08:14 AM #5
I would like to get a screw supercharger for my 96 Cobra too. But with the way things are looking I'm going to have to go centrifugal/turbo. My goal is 450-500whpin my garage:
96 Cobra Supercharged
07 Dodge Ram Cummins
06 R1, 05 R6, 06 KTM 250xcw
Member of the Mid-Atlantic Cobra Association
07-08-2009, 07:11 PM #6
07-09-2009, 07:42 AM #7
08-01-2009, 03:57 PM #8
- Join Date
- March 2005
- San Diego
I have looked into what you are doing extensively.
Which route you take purely depends on money.
I considered what you are doing, but the money you will spend (because KB won't sell the 99+ manifold or intercooler parts seperately) will leave you with less power then other options.
You can do what you are thinking, but in the end with new KB kit and misc parts you are going to be an easy 8K. You have get fuel rails, throttle body, new cold air intake, injectors, maf, and adapt over some parts. And lots of potential fit problems. I don't have all the details, because when I started adding it up, the money stopped me in a hurry. And in the end, you will still have a non-forged bottom end with you hp being limited.
I then looked into buying a used or new 03-04 Cobra engine complete and putting a KB kit on it. There are numerous people who have done this and a search will bring up on all the hassles there. And you can expect to spend 11K, but the HP gains are huge and you will have a forged engine.
I am (at this moment) going with plan "C". I am having a new competely forged bottom end built and my 98 heads rebuilt. This is going to cost me $4500. I already have the 2.1KB kit on the car. Then i am going to ad the Meth injection $500 insalled and have a Blow Off Valve custom made $500. Move the IAC to intake after the blower. I am going to bump the boost to about 14 to start things off.
It is expected with this $6K setup I will get:
490-500rwhp @ 14psi
540-550rwhp @ 16psi
Then I am going to port the heads, port the KB intake, add cams. and possibly bump the boost to 17-18psi, depending on how the KB does heat wise.
A few notes....
completely stock long block now and with 90mm maf, 42lb inj, BAP, stock exhaust except for catback...car made 360rwhp.
The above numbers include adding....LT headers, IMRC deletes, Accufab TB, keeping 10.1 compression ratio (vs 03 cobra's 8.5 to 1)
I will let you know what happens, as it should be all done by the end of Aug.
Last edited by SpdPilot; 08-01-2009 at 04:00 PM.1998 Cobra KB 2.1L SuperCharged
2007 Roush Supercharged F150 Nitemare
08-01-2009, 05:06 PM #9
Mark W. Olson
- Join Date
- March 2004
- San Jose, CA
96 Cobra #1407
See www.classictiger.com/mustang for mods
08-02-2009, 02:39 PM #10
- Join Date
- March 2005
- San Diego
08-02-2009, 02:44 PM #11
- Join Date
- March 2004
- San Jose, CA
With the KB kit, the blower is after the MAF. If you use a blow off valve to vent to the atmosphere, you will be venting metered air, so you will never be able to get the tune right.
The only way you can use a BOV is when the compressor is in front of the MAF. If the blower is after the MAF, you will need to use a bypass valve.
08-02-2009, 06:26 PM #12
bov is mostly to avoid compressor surge. Bypass is acts like a wastegate.
08-02-2009, 07:02 PM #13
Or you don't run a MAF, switch to a MAP. It wont be the end of the world either way, just run rich for a second during/after shifts.
Most of my boost experience comes from turbo setups, but with turbos a bov and a bpv don't act differently at all, and a bpv valve is differently a completely different animal than a wastegate...
Last edited by Quin; 08-02-2009 at 07:04 PM.
08-03-2009, 01:27 PM #14
in my opinion if your going to switch hads and you don't want ot buy another blower then sell the KB and find an eaton swap. they can be had a lot less then the kbs and u can make all the way up to 500 RWHP if u want that and u have the supporting mods and motor.
08-03-2009, 11:34 PM #15
Well, a stout bottom end isn't a problem for me, I've got the shortblock out now for a rebuild. After having the car tuned at Paul's Automotive Engineering in Cincinnati a few years ago, my car went from running 113mph trap speed to running only 106mph while belching coolant whenever it goes over 3psi.
I don't consider 12+ psi a streetable level unless I can add an intercooler. I don't want to mess with filling a methanol bottle... otherwise I'd just use nitrous :-)
I've considered an '03 Cobra engine swap, but I don't want the heavy iron block. By the time I buy an '03 Cobra motor at ~$6k, then rebuild my shortblock for $3500, I'll have nearly $10k in the swap, not including all the headaches of piecing together intercooler pumps, heat exchangers, and everything else on my own.
That's why I'm considering the '99 KB kit. I can rebuild my shortblock for $3500, use the spare '99 Cobra heads I have, and install the '99 KB kit for $6500. It will be about the same as using an '03 Cobra motor, but the kit takes all of the guesswork out of the cold air/manifold/intercooler setup. I can use my '96 cam covers and retain my '96 ignition system. I can keep my 42# injectors. I will need a new fuel rail and remote fuel pressure regulator... but beyond that
Either way I hate to spend $10k on this car right now. I'd rather save my money for a new Shelby. The third option is to find a used 2.2L compressor (which will bolt to my 1.5L manifolds), build a stroker shortblock and port my '96 heads to utilize the increased airflow without increasing boost above my current 7-8 psi, then fabricate a bypass to keep discharge temperatures down. I figure that should cost me less than $7k and still be able to exceed my 400 rwhp goal.
My biggest fear with the last option is I don't feel like I'm doing anything to prevent the head gasket problem again.
Last edited by mustangc; 08-03-2009 at 11:42 PM.
08-04-2009, 03:55 AM #16
Get your heads and block decked, buy some metal head gaskets and ARP head studs, problem solved. For the bottom end, rather than buy a whole 03 motor, why not just source some stock 03-04 rods, get em reconditioned, grab some aftermarket slugs and call it a day? You've already got the C heads, toss your stock cams in them and you're pretty much ready to rock.
Seems like that'd be the cheapest way to make the power reliably. Just my two cents.
Edit: Plus, when you switch to C heads, it'll give you an excuse to donate that 1.5 to the needy... aka me! =P
Last edited by Quin; 08-04-2009 at 03:56 AM.
08-04-2009, 11:12 AM #17
08-04-2009, 03:01 PM #18
08-04-2009, 03:29 PM #19
Well, decking the block and heads will flatten them out, but it also removes more material... making the heads even thinner (and more prone to warping) than before. Our cars already came with MLS Multi-layered steel head gaskets from the factory. I am going to do ARP studs as you suggested, but will that alone be enough to countermeasure any further gasket failures?
08-04-2009, 05:32 PM #20
If I wasn't so tight with money right now I'd sell you my blower set-up on my 03 and run a Hellion t-76 turbo..(Think allison will go for that??LOL) Hey if you really want a 2.2 maybe I can convince her to let me get a 2.8H KB or 3.4 whipple ;)
Honestly I would port the heads, add some cams, and have the stock manifold modified. Sell the blower to Quin. If you really want to do a BB/stroker then go for it but I wouldn't deam it necessary. Throw on some kooks longtubes(Or Ill sell you the bassanis REAL CHEAP!!! ) The rest of the money can go towards something big and blue with a PD blower on it........
The car would be different, sound wicked at idle and make the power you want. But you will need to rev it to make the power. BUT hey buzzing the mod motor up is great fun.
PS. Dont forget I still have my eaton in the garage holding down the work bench with less then 16K miles on it with stock and 2.93 pulley if you still consider that.
Last edited by F8L SN8K; 08-04-2009 at 05:35 PM.Those who say it can not be done should not interrupt those that are doing it.
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08-04-2009, 09:50 PM #21
Tossing an Eaton on there might not be a bad idea, either. PIE cars typically make a lot more than your 400rw goal.
Last edited by Quin; 08-04-2009 at 09:53 PM.
08-05-2009, 07:12 PM #22
I just got off the phone with Modular Performance. They explained that my engine most likely just lifted the head off the block. Extreme cylinder pressures (aka detonation) can stretch the stock Torque-to-Yield head bolts, especially if the engine is older and has been through so many heat cycles. He said it is often just one bolt that gets stretched out too far.
As for preventing it from happening again, I'm going to use ARP head studs, lower static compression ratio by using dished pistons, and find a good, safe shop to do my tuning. Having a fresh engine and keeping it cool are also important.
Last edited by mustangc; 08-05-2009 at 07:14 PM.
08-05-2009, 07:47 PM #23
Back to the original topic...using a '99-'01 intercooled kit on a '96 Cobra using C-heads... I was hoping someone else had already done it. Usually if it hasn't already been done, there is a good reason.
Even with 'free' C-heads and '03 cobra throttle body, the cost of the Kenne Bell kit ($6400 for the tuner kit) combined with the rebuilt shortblock puts the tag over $10k even without any unforeseen expenses. I haven't had any luck finding any 'discounted' or used kits, so I guess I'm out of (intercooled) options.
Porting my B-heads and maybe going with a big bore, stroker, or big bore stroker shortblock should allow me to achieve my power goals while keeping my boost level low and saving some cash. If the 1.5L KB won't support the airflow, I'll pick up a used 2.2 compressor somewhere... or maybe grab a 2.3 whipple. I hear they used the same inlet and outlet bolt pattern as the 1.5 & 2.2 Kenne Bell.
08-06-2009, 12:08 AM #24
Never said it would help with warping, but as I said before, you shouldn't be running hot enough to worry about it. Btw, my first real car was a 20yo import that would have given your KB car a run for it's money
Have you given any consideration to running a take off 03-04 Eaton set up?
08-06-2009, 07:52 PM #25
Plus, combustion temperatures far exceed blower discharge temperatures. A small blower making 5 pounds of boost to an engine tuned with too much spark advance and too little fuel will generate enough heat to melt a piston.
... but based on what Modular Performance told me, I agree my cylinder heads probably aren't warped. I just stretched a head bolt.
As for the Eaton swap, I have thought about it, but there are a lot of parts you have to piece together one-by-one. It's expensive, time consuming, and comes with a lot of headaches. You need the blower, intercooler, manifold, injectors, fuel rail, timing chain cover... the list is long. It wouldn't save me much if any money over the KB kit... which comes with a far superior blower.
As for the import thing... I like imports, too... McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche. But nothing that runs on Rice.