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Thread: Motorcraft 5W50 VOA
12-02-2010, 09:07 PM #1
Motorcraft 5W50 VOA
Here is a VOA of the Motorcraft 5W50 Full Synthetic Motor Oil. Now we have a baseline.
Last edited by 6-Speed; 02-26-2011 at 11:21 PM.
12-02-2010, 09:32 PM #2
ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) is very Low. JEEZ!! A good level is Phosphorus 763 ppm, & Zinc 1577 ppm.
Last edited by apexchain; 12-02-2010 at 09:38 PM.
12-02-2010, 10:28 PM #3
I'm surprised the P and Zn are so low in a virgin sample. Blackstone ran two analysis on the sample with the same results. Even the analysis done on a used sample with 6000 miles on it had much more (P = 655, Zn = 928). At least we now know it starts off as a 50 grade oil. My sample came from the half-quart bottle left over from my previous oil change last April.
Last edited by 6-Speed; 12-02-2010 at 10:54 PM.
12-02-2010, 10:41 PM #4
Ford/Motorcraft Oil used to have higher levels, that older test probably had Ford old sotck that had the higher levels in it. There is a way to tell between the old & new oil stock.
The bottles have different colored caps.
12-02-2010, 10:54 PM #5
12-02-2010, 10:57 PM #6
That's for doing that for us
2008 Shelby GT500
2921 out of 6513 coupes
132 of 314 Alloy Metallic
Shelby Dash Plaque,FRPP TVS Super power pack ,Drag Pack,SVT handling pack,FRPP Cobra Jet TB/MAF/80lb injectors,J&M UCA,LCA,Adj.PHB,SFC,PH A/D,O/R H, DynoMax 3in,CHE, Shelby Rad/HE,VMP 2.59,KB BAP,L&M plenum,BMR KMEMEBER,AED CUSTOM RETURN STYLE FUEL SYSTEM.
91/E85 tune by SHAUN AT AED
700HP/700TQ ON E85
10.78 @ 129MPH 1.644 60FT
2014 Fiesta ST Green Envy Tricoat
2014 Tuxedo Black Fusion
12-02-2010, 11:03 PM #7
I should test some virgin valvoline roush oil an castrol
12-03-2010, 12:46 AM #8
12-03-2010, 01:06 AM #9
I'm still waiting on my Factory Fill OA and a new kit to do the VOA on RedLine 5w-50. As soon as I get it, I'll post up.
#1652 of 3545 2010 Shelby GT500 Performance White / Grabber Blue
True Forged Wheels MADE IN THE USA!!!
The D.D.- 2013 FX4 F150 Ecoboost The Mommy Mobile- 2014 Explorer Sport
So if we're counting that's 3 cars, 4 turbos, 1 supercharger and countless destroyed tires...
12-03-2010, 01:15 AM #10
Red Line Zinc/Phosphorus additive is highly recommended.
Valvoline Roush Oil is high in Zinc & Phosphorus, it is hands down some of the best Full Synthetic 5W-50 for our cars.i If you can find it as it is
no longer being produced. Valvoline & Roush have parted ways
On E-Bay Jegs is selling Roush 5W-50 for $17.00 a Quart!!
12-03-2010, 06:00 AM #11
Low ZDDP from the Mobil 1 5W-50, I'm not surprized, and why I will NEVER pour an API SM/SN lubricant in ANY engine I own.
12-03-2010, 07:00 AM #12
If additives are no longer being used or in this case it has been mandated to be reduced for pollution control, you can add it. It is not a quality issue. By law a maximum amount can only be present. So be quiet! It was not Mobil 1 that we were even discussing. "That is why the Red Line Zinc/Phosphorus additive is sold under their Racing Section. Off Road use only.
I use Red Line 5W-50 with Red Line Zinc/Phosphorus addittive.
12-03-2010, 07:14 AM #13
No I will NOT be quiet. You are taking on an argument that you cannot win. It's not a LAW that the end user is forced to choose an API certified oil that is low in ZDDP. It's not law that an oil manufacturer is forced to limit the amounts of ZDDP. It's only policy that in order to pass the API SM/SN standards, ZDDP is limited to 800 ppm. The manufacturer recommended API certified products, so that they know the "minimum" standards are met.
That's really funny too...I've seen API SM logos on some of the cheapest crap engine oil you can find at the dollar store. It's rather humorous.
I've said this many times before as well. API SM "low ZDDP" formulations were brought forth to give added cushion to the manufacturers that the catalysts would survive over 100,000 miles (they were only required to warranty catalysts up to 80,000 miles during the API SL "high ZDDP" era.
This all comes down to NOACK Volatility, and the API doesn't even take it into consideration. DEE DEE DEE!!!
An engine lubricant with low volatilty (evaporation) and high ZDDP will contaminate a catalyst no more than an engine lubricant with high volatilty and low ZDDP. It's been proven, but the API ignores the fact. The manufacturers do not care that lower amounts of ZDDP are causing more wear than API SL formulations. The engine will be long out of warranty before the added wear becomes an issue.
Facts don't lie, and I have them. If you have to add anything to an engine oil, you chose the wrong oil...period.
12-03-2010, 07:30 AM #14
You use words like "POLICY, STANDARDS". Only a certain amount can be present. If we want to add more as we have knowledge why the additive has been limited. Then why do you care?
Why do you think Race Oils are so High in these two additives?
Again Using a high Quality Oil like Red Line 5W-50 & adding their Zinc/Phosphorus additive is highly recommended. This is crucial if you are still breaking in your engine.
Guru oil boy loves hearing himself talk. Keep telling people they should not use 5W-50 as you have been. Guess you know more than the people who designed the tolerances of this Motor.
12-03-2010, 07:38 AM #15
Race oils have high amounts of ZDDP, very true, and for good reason (high temps, high pressures, high stress). The con of race oils, low TBN content (detergent additives).
Your Red Line 5W-50 should have ample amounts of ZDDP in normal form, as it's an API SL style formulation.
If you need more than what is formulated, why not choose an oil that has ALL the requirements for your engine.
Do I know more than the manufacturers, never (they make political decisions, most are not always what is best for the end user). Do I know more than just about everyone else who posts here....more than likely.
Oh, and I care because....AMSOIL formulates high ZDDP additive packs in their 10W-40 and 20W-50 street oils. I don't have to add anything extra to get the protection my engine deserves.
Last edited by UnleashedBeast; 12-03-2010 at 07:43 AM.
12-03-2010, 11:35 AM #16
I had a sample of 15w40 RP from the SVTP F-350 done with 5000 miles on it and I think it had a higher TBN than this oil has new.The SVTP 2012 GT is For Sale. Click Here for Details.
Silver 04 Lightning (aka The Defiant) Build date: 04/19/04 Delivered: 5/15/04
Let's crank up the boost and see what shakes loose.
12-03-2010, 03:39 PM #17
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Can some one please post an ASTM, ASME, API, etc. table that outlines desired oil properties (i.e. ranges of what is good and bad). This would be most useful.
12-03-2010, 04:31 PM #18
I don't think anyone is saying that youíre flat out wrong by putting an additive in your oil. I think what UnleashedBeast is saying is that if you NEED to put additives in the oil, youíre probably not using the best oil that you could be. The thing you need to understand about manufacturer recommended lubricants is that the manufacturer has a lot more to consider than just engine longevity. In fact, engine longevity is at the bottom of the engine oil priority list when the engineers decide which is best to recommend.
As long as the engineer can guarantee that the engine lives beyond the warranty period (which is not a difficult task now a days with the way engines are built you can pretty much run cooking oil in them and get 50k miles out of them), the actual longevity beyond that is not even in the equasion let alone top priority list when deriving the recommended oil. They consider things like CAFE standards, federally mandated Catalytic Converter warranties and survivability, fuel mileage concerns and most of all, which one of their own in house oils will fit all of the above. Clearly they want to make as much money on the "aftermarket" as possible so they will never recommend an oil that they don't make. It's also not very smart business to recommend an oil that will lend to a high percentage of catalyst failure before the federally mandated warranty is up. So if you break it down, the pecking order when deriving a manufacturer recommended oil is: What do we make that will... Will it meet the latest API standard? Is it possible to reduce the additives enough to maintain Catalyst operation beyond 100k miles but still insure engine life beyond the much smaller 50k mile warranty? Will it give us the best possible rated fuel economy? AND that's about where the manufacturers cares end when it comes to recommending engine oil...
There is NO law that limits the amount of zinc additives in motor oil. In order to meet the standard qualifications of API SM, the oil must come below a certain level of zinc and other additives. It's that simple and has nothing to do with law. So, if the oil company wants the oil to be able to wear the API SM approved label, it must conform to those specific standards. At the same time, in order to ever be one of many "manufacturer recommended" oils they must wear the API label. So, clearly the oil company is going to meet the standards in an effort to sell more oil... That certainly doesn't mean itís the best standard or the best lubricent for a long lasting high performance engine.
UnleashedBeast knows what he's talking about and has obviously done a lot of research in this field. You don't have to agree with him, but you should absolutely respect and consider his insight. Everything he's saying is objective and can be backed by fact, not just opinion. Just do some research yourself and you'll see.
12-03-2010, 05:29 PM #19
It is absurd for anybody to dispute that additional Zinc/Phosphorus additive is not warranted, Especially during BREAK-IN. PERIOD. SIMPLE AS THAT.
Why do you think they sell it under Racing "Engine & Break-In?
That is as arbitrary as saying that Amsoil Oil Filters are not justified as well over Ford Filters. They are far superior to Fords. Additional protection!! In addition these Zinc/Phosphorus additive are very expensive as well FYI. Another reason why there is a limit. If you want more pay for it!
12-03-2010, 05:46 PM #20
Red Line Racing Oil has no less than 2200ppm of zinc and phosphorus present for antiwear.
So if I add one bottle of Red Line Zinc & Phosphorus addittive to (7) Quarts of Red Line Oil I will have Phosphorus at 1307 ppm & Zinc 1577 ppm.
DEAD ON FOR A DAILY DRIVER :-)
12-03-2010, 06:13 PM #21
12-03-2010, 06:24 PM #22
12-03-2010, 06:34 PM #23
12-03-2010, 06:50 PM #24
In the end, we are talking 5W-50, correct?
If an owner uses 5W-50 Oil Weight & adds Red-Line Zinc additive, that is the most ideal route in the 50 weight application to obtain the appropriate anti-wear protection. Right?
You are on the notion of using other weight Oils, I understand that. However again I can not stress enough that this thread is about 5W50.
Last edited by apexchain; 12-03-2010 at 07:10 PM.
12-03-2010, 07:09 PM #25
Rebuttal of what??? Are you just here looking for a fight or are you trying to add worthwhile content to this discussion? Re read my post and you'll clearly see that I didn't exactly disagree with anything you said. All I said was that if you use oil that NEEDS an additive, you probably aren't using the right oil. I changed my oil for the first time a few weeks ago and RedLine is what went in. I didn't add any additives because the levels of ZDDP additives in the RedLine right out of the bottle are more than enough to get the job done in this engine. If you feel the need to add it, more power to yea, but I don't and don't recommend it to anyone that asks.
ZDDP is not the holy grail of engine lubrication as you are making it seem. Itís simply one part of the equation and in engines that use over head cams or roller lifters / followers, the overwhelming amounts of ZDDP that used to be needed are no longer needed. Solid flat tappet cam profiles, as specially high lift and long duration cams, required WAY MORE anti-wear additives (ZDDP and Molly) in the oil to maintain lubricity under high pressure (between the cam lobe and the lifter). However the increasing use of roller cams and in our case, the overhead design with roller followers, vastly reduced that high pressure high friction contact between the cam lobe surface and the lifter head surface. Please explain to me where else in an engine such as the 5.4 DOHC engine, that there is metal on metal pressure to the point that overdosing ZDDP levels will assist in lubricity and lasting effects of engine oil... The whole purpose of ZDDP and the moly that it requires in order to work properly, is to create a sacrificial surface between two metal surfaces. Aside from a wrist pin, where in the 5.4 DOHC do you have metal to metal contact that requires excessive amounts of anti-wear additives in order to resist scoring? (Excessive being the key word here).
I can't recall where I saw it, but I know a few years back (probably longer than a few because it was when I was building small block Chevy engines) I found some research published by a couple of engineers from GM that worked on the original ZR1 engine. They did extensive testing on engine oil and ZDDP levels and determined that quantities of ZDDP equal to 600-800 ppm phosphorus were more than sufficient for most high performance "roller" engines, "except for break-in of flat tappet cams or OHC followers with high spring pressures." SO, even if you doubled that number, 1000-1600 PPM should easily be enough to keep anti-wear characteristics of group IV base stock engine oil serviceable for extended lengths of time. So why on earth would you need to add ZDDP to motor oil that already contains "no less than 2200 PPM" right out of the bottle? Unless I'm misunderstanding your last post?
ZDDP additives above and beyond whatís already in the bottle, were (and still are) used for engine break in lubricants on pushrod engines because the pressure at the cam lobe is extremely high as specially when the cam, lifters, rocker faces and valve heads are still "seating" during the break in process. Hence also, the use of copious amounts of engine assembly lube during the assembly process. This is why most cam break in procedures are what they are. However, overhead cams with roller followers have nowhere near the lobe surface pressure that flat tappet cams and lifters have and require a completely different break-in procedure.
While ZDDP is still, in my opinion, the best anti-wear additive available in readily available engine oils today; For the GT500 engine imparticular over using it is #1 not necessary #2 not cost effective and #3 counterproductive in that the ash and soot it creates is destructive over time to emission control devices and also proven to lend to increased sludge and carbon build up inside the crank case. Like most things in the world, too much of a good thing is not always a good thing.