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  1. #1
    Just A GT 1QUICK10TH's Avatar
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    engines without intake valves?

    Just a thought that has crossed my mind so bare with me if its ridiculous. Every one knows we have direct injection, and we all know its proven to be an excellent development. What if they were to develop a way to inject the perfect amount of air directly into the combustion chamber also? I know its a stretch but maybe it would be beneficial?

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  2. #2
    LolUMad? GloomySVT's Avatar
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    Good idea, but that's already done with boost lol. The perfect amount of air to make traction a rare commodity


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    Quote Originally Posted by 1QUICK10TH View Post
    Just a thought that has crossed my mind so bare with me if its ridiculous. Every one knows we have direct injection, and we all know its proven to be an excellent development. What if they were to develop a way to inject the perfect amount of air directly into the combustion chamber also? I know its a stretch but maybe it would be beneficial?
    It's called a 2 stroke diesel engine. The perfect amount of air is always every molecule that can possibly be crammed in.
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  4. #4
    Crazy SVT Poster
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    Modern 2 stroke engines use reed valves.

  5. #5
    # of bans = 5203 thomas91169's Avatar
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    How would you expel the expended fuel/air mixture?


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  6. #6
    Liberals Suck Mr. Mach-ete's Avatar
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    Call me stupid but don't all compression devices need intake and discharge valves? Intake valves allow air in but slam shut during the compression/ignition stroke?
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mach-ete View Post
    Call me stupid but don't all compression devices need intake and discharge valves? Intake valves allow air in but slam shut during the compression/ignition stroke?
    Nope. Some diesels use intake ports(without valves) with a blower to cram air in and they have 4 exhaust valves wrapped around an injector.

    IIRC it was a 8V92TA, it powers the Armys HEMTT.

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    Last edited by Ironhand; 04-26-2012 at 06:55 PM.

  8. #8
    It's to big to move FAST! Silverstrike's Avatar
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    Another engine without any intake or exhaust valves is the Wankle Rotary
    Let me get this straight, Your Honda engine has 1.6 liters were my bottle of Mountain Dew has 2.


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  9. #9
    SVT God Digital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhand View Post
    Nope. Some diesels use intake ports(without valves) with a blower to cram air in and they have 4 exhaust valves wrapped around an injector.

    IIRC it was a 8V92TA, it powers the Armys HEMTT.

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  10. #10
    Wasn't me. Rubenk's Avatar
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    I've made a post about this before too, no idea where.

    My idea was a big "air injector" that would work jsut like a fuel injector, and then have exhaust ports similiar to a 2 stroke engine.

    I think it was determine that the amount of energy required to power those air injectors would be quite detrimental and rediculous to engineer as well.

  11. #11
    Insane SVT Poster 10splaya22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubenk View Post
    I've made a post about this before too, no idea where.

    My idea was a big "air injector" that would work jsut like a fuel injector, and then have exhaust ports similiar to a 2 stroke engine.

    I think it was determine that the amount of energy required to power those air injectors would be quite detrimental and rediculous to engineer as well.
    A blower/turbo is the air injector you are looking for

  12. #12
    Wasn't me. Rubenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10splaya22 View Post
    A blower/turbo is the air injector you are looking for
    Except they still rely on a valvetrain.

    My idea is a big direct injection of air from the top of the cylinder head, nearly identical to current direct fuel injection.

    Lets assume a typical 2-stroke engine, except the intake ports dont exist, only an exhaust port near the bottom of the chamber. As soon as the piston comes up and seals past that port, the air is "injected" directly into the chamber with the exact amount you wanted, the piston compresses and the fuel is injected, then spark ignites it all, power is made and the piston moves back down allowing the exhaust to go out of the port. To make it work you would also need a blast of air while the exhaust port is exposed to clear the cylinder.

    This would all require pretty crazy engineering and some extreme precision that just makes it all totally unfeasible.

    I base this only referencing how the below 2stroke engine works(RC nitro engines), I assume larger 2 strokes are the same?


  13. #13
    OP is a faggit thepizz's Avatar
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  14. #14
    Hi-Energy Photon Wrangler James Snover's Avatar
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    I think the problem you're going to have is volume. You need 12-14 times more air than fuel. An injector made for that kind of volume would probably look something like ... an intake port. Sleeve valve engines, and Wankels, as far as I know, have been the only real competition to traditional poppet valves in a four stroke engine. Both sleeve valves and Wankels have their limitations. Wankels waste a lot of heat, more than 50%; and sleeve valves are very complicated and induce a lot of friction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rubenk View Post
    Except they still rely on a valvetrain.

    My idea is a big direct injection of air from the top of the cylinder head, nearly identical to current direct fuel injection.

    Lets assume a typical 2-stroke engine, except the intake ports dont exist, only an exhaust port near the bottom of the chamber. As soon as the piston comes up and seals past that port, the air is "injected" directly into the chamber with the exact amount you wanted, the piston compresses and the fuel is injected, then spark ignites it all, power is made and the piston moves back down allowing the exhaust to go out of the port. To make it work you would also need a blast of air while the exhaust port is exposed to clear the cylinder.

    This would all require pretty crazy engineering and some extreme precision that just makes it all totally unfeasible.

    I base this only referencing how the below 2stroke engine works(RC nitro engines), I assume larger 2 strokes are the same?

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  15. #15
    Wasn't me. Rubenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Snover View Post
    I think the problem you're going to have is volume. You need 12-14 times more air than fuel. An injector made for that kind of volume would probably look something like ... an intake port. Sleeve valve engines, and Wankels, as far as I know, have been the only real competition to traditional poppet valves in a four stroke engine. Both sleeve valves and Wankels have their limitations. Wankels waste a lot of heat, more than 50%; and sleeve valves are very complicated and induce a lot of friction.
    All good points...Perhaps you use half of an engines cylinders as the air "pumps" for the remaining cylinders?!


  16. #16
    Condom Model Ry_Trapp0's Avatar
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    why don't we go back to square one and ask what we're actually trying to achieve here. because i'm definitely not seeing the benefit to this.
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  17. #17
    Crazy SVT Poster slowr w/o blowr's Avatar
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    If you are looking at an "air injector", and don't want to be reliant on superchargers or turbochargers, you are still limited with atmospheric pressure. In order to inject the air into the cylinder, you have to draw the air into the "air injector" by causing a low air pressure event. So, now instead of the piston drawing the air in, now you are trying to draw it into the injector.

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  18. #18
    Wasn't me. Rubenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ry_Trapp0 View Post
    why don't we go back to square one and ask what we're actually trying to achieve here. because i'm definitely not seeing the benefit to this.
    My concept when I thought about it before this thread, was to get a perfect A/F ratio everytime by injecting precise amounts of air and fuel, instead of measuring air and injecting the corresponding fuel to make it right.

    We have direct injection down, and pretty precise valvetrain making it happen now, so I was wondering other ways to make it happen.

  19. #19
    corn fed shanezt's Avatar
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    why not get rid of valves all together? CSRV vs. Poppet Valve - Coates International Ltd.

    i seem to remember reading they were able to get a stock ford 5.0 (or 4.0) to turn like 12-13k rpm. i could be wrong.
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  20. #20
    Hi-Energy Photon Wrangler James Snover's Avatar
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    You could, but traditional turbos and centrifugal blowers are more efficient at moving air than reciprocating air pumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubenk View Post
    All good points...Perhaps you use half of an engines cylinders as the air "pumps" for the remaining cylinders?!


  21. #21
    Hi-Energy Photon Wrangler James Snover's Avatar
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    That looks interesting. But they still have the friction of those "two-part seals" to minimize. And since it uses no oil for lubrication, it must be made of expensive materials to withstand the heat.

    Quote Originally Posted by shanezt View Post
    why not get rid of valves all together? CSRV vs. Poppet Valve - Coates International Ltd.

    i seem to remember reading they were able to get a stock ford 5.0 (or 4.0) to turn like 12-13k rpm. i could be wrong.
    Last edited by James Snover; 04-29-2012 at 06:13 PM.

  22. #22
    Ford For Life black92's Avatar
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    10 or so years ago I read an article in Engine Masters that was about a completely new head design that only needed the timing chain to function. It seemed like it was dual overhead cam design, but the "cams" had pockets in them and when aligned just right, would allow air in and out. The design of the head eliminated pushrods, valve springs, etc. They said that they took a completely stock 5.0 that dyno'd ~215hp at the wheels and when they changed ONLY the heads, power shot up to 400+hp at the wheels and the motor was spun up to 10,500+ rpm with the stock rotating assembly...

    Let me search around and see what I can find.

    Edit: Seems like I didn't read down far enough and shanezt posted what I was thinking.
    Last edited by black92; 04-29-2012 at 07:44 PM.

  23. #23
    Just A GT 1QUICK10TH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepizz View Post
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  24. #24
    Wasn't me. Rubenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by black92 View Post
    10 or so years ago I read an article in Engine Masters that was about a completely new head design that only needed the timing chain to function. It seemed like it was dual overhead cam design, but the "cams" had pockets in them and when aligned just right, would allow air in and out. The design of the head eliminated pushrods, valve springs, etc. They said that they took a completely stock 5.0 that dyno'd ~215hp at the wheels and when they changed ONLY the heads, power shot up to 400+hp at the wheels and the motor was spun up to 10,500+ rpm with the stock rotating assembly...

    Let me search around and see what I can find.

    Edit: Seems like I didn't read down far enough and shanezt posted what I was thinking.
    So the connecting rods, crank, and all the bearings magically got better because of a new top end? Cool.

  25. #25
    Condom Model Ry_Trapp0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubenk View Post
    My concept when I thought about it before this thread, was to get a perfect A/F ratio everytime by injecting precise amounts of air and fuel, instead of measuring air and injecting the corresponding fuel to make it right.

    We have direct injection down, and pretty precise valvetrain making it happen now, so I was wondering other ways to make it happen.
    so is the ultimate goal to maximize fuel efficiency? you wouldn't be gaining HP since your limiting the total amount of air in the combustion chamber vs the air intake arrangement that we currently use. but limiting the total amount of air and precisely controlling the A/F ratio would certainly maximize fuel efficiency in a piston engine i would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Snover View Post
    You could, but traditional turbos and centrifugal blowers are more efficient at moving air than reciprocating air pumps.
    which begs the question; why the hell hasn't anyone built a miller cycle performance engine??? miller cycle V8 with todays increasingly efficient twin screw superchargers, it's a no brainer!

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