View Poll Results: How Many 2013's Will be Built?

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  • Less than 4000

    38 43.18%
  • 4001 - 4500

    11 12.50%
  • 4501 - 5000

    12 13.64%
  • 5001 - 6000

    8 9.09%
  • Over 6000

    19 21.59%
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  1. #26
    Crazy SVT Poster USV8PWR's Avatar
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    I respectfully disagree with Chris but I know he has a lot of good inside information and sources. When I was looking to order one in early June I was repeatedly told by some very honest dealer owners that less than 4,000 would be made, they only had 1, 2, or 3 allocations, etc., etc. Plus we have a vendor on here who has came out and told us how many units for the blower Ford had him bid on. Again it was less than 4K a year. Now, we have Farmboy's awesome info which again shows 3,725 units. Finally let's not forget that the 2013 Mustang model year will be very short, because the 2014 Mustang model year will also be very short, because Ford wants to get the all new Mustang out just in time for it's 50th anniversary. The 2013 and 2014 Shelby GT500 is just a send off of the old platform and will not have the build numbers of the previous years because of the short model years.

    Now here is my speculation as to why Ford is limiting these cars. Since the first modern Shelby GT500 in 2007 Ford has not limited them, unlike the old Cobras of the 90's. They built as many could be sold plus 1...at least I think that was the motto. The greedy dealers kept ordering and ordering thinking the 07's would be some kind of one off collectible and therefore asking huge markups whether or not they had the car already sold. Then the 08 model came around and Ford introduced the limited Shelby GT500KR. This in turn put a lot of dealers in a tight spot with their unsold 07's sitting around as who then thought the 07 was going to be worth a whole lot??? So the dealers next jumped on those 08 & 09 KR models and hoarded them with huge ADMs. I know one Western KY Ford dealer who was asking like $75K over sticker for his 08 KR and it sat and sat, and is still in the showroom til this day! Why you ask? Because then came the 2010 model with the same enhancements of the 2008 KR for a lot less money which made the 08's, with the exception of some apparence stuff, less desireable. And then again the 2011 model was better than the 2010. All the while many of the dealers who were just blindly ordering cars and asking huge markups felt the pain when trying to unload them a year or even two or more later against newer Shelbys that were more capable and had more features! The best example is the new 2011 and 2012s sitting on the lot when Ford announced the 2013 model! I'm sure this has ticked off a lot of dealers...as it did with some of the customers who thought they were buying the greatest ever to be built at the time. LoL!!

    With this new ordering system on the 2013/2014, Ford has the fantastic ability to control the number of cars actually produced to ensure for 1) that the car holds it's value better and for 2) the dealers actually have a chance to make some good money on the car if they choose to do that and they have a buyer willing to pay their asking price. Everyone wins this go around, both us and the Ford dealers who agree to sell them. Remember, Ford is not trying to make a huge profit on these cars. Yes they make money off them. But the Shelby's real purpose of being created is to attract attention and enthusiasm to the whole Ford brand, which in turn makes lots and lots of money for them.

    Just a financial guy's point of view.
    Last edited by USV8PWR; 07-28-2012 at 12:14 PM.

  2. #27
    SVT God Snoopy49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris! View Post
    Ford is not limiting the production- the dealers and the market are.
    IMO that is not the case. There are plenty of dealers and customers trying to order these cars. Ford will not accept all the orders because they don't have the production capacity to meet the demand. That is one of the reasons for allocations. If you can only make 5000 cars a year and you have 3000+ dealers and you don't want to spend the additional money required to increase production, you have no other option than to limit the number of cars you offer for sell and to whom you sell those cars.

  3. #28
    Former Ford Dealer Chris!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy49 View Post
    IMO that is not the case. There are plenty of dealers and customers trying to order these cars. Ford will not accept all the orders because they don't have the production capacity to meet the demand. That is one of the reasons for allocations. If you can only make 5000 cars a year and you have 3000+ dealers and you don't want to spend the additional money required to increase production, you have no other option than to limit the number of cars you offer for sell and to whom you sell those cars.
    I think you missed my point. There are people that want to order them/ but dealers want $10k over sticker for them- making those people that want to order-
    Not order.

    I do- however wish I knew the number of dealers that certified for the 13/14 Shelby- that would make it alot easier to estimate

    Dont forget- the head of SVT himself said they'd build as many as we're ordered...unless of course he misspoke or misremembered (thank you Mr Clemens)
    Last edited by Chris!; 07-28-2012 at 12:22 PM.
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  4. #29
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    Have to agree with Chris. If its a limited run it won't be because of ford but because of dealers and demand. But USV8PWR also brings up some good points as well. I guess that's the fun in speculating. In the meantime, just enjoy what you got and have fun
    Last edited by dom418; 07-28-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy49 View Post
    Assuming farmboy90's figures are accurate, you fail to take into account Ford Racing and over the counter sales for some if not all of the additional blowers.


    I remembered that After I hit enter...lol
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris! View Post

    Dont forget- the head of SVT himself said they'd build as many as we're ordered...unless of course he misspoke or misremembered (thank you Mr Clemens)

    See I think that's where everyone is getting mixed up.

    Like you said in A earlier post Chris about the dealers asking crazy adm's for the cars. The dealers are controlling the market right now.

  7. #32
    SVT God Snoopy49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris! View Post
    I think you missed my point. There are people that want to order them/ but dealers want $10k over sticker for them- making those people that want to order-
    Not order.

    I do- however wish I knew the number of dealers that certified for the 13/14 Shelby- that would make it alot easier to estimate

    Don't forget- the head of SVT himself said they'd build as many as we're ordered...unless of course he misspoke or misremembered (thank you Mr Clemens)
    I see your point and you are correct about some of the dealers and their greed. But for every greedy dealer there is a dealer that would love to take all the orders they could get and sell them all for MSRP or less, problem is they can't even place an order with Ford for one of these cars because there just aren't enough to go around. The two closest dealers to me can't even talk about ordering a 2013 GT500, they only had 1 allocation and have used it. The best they can do is try to get one from one of the greedy dealers or put you on a waiting list with the understanding they can't guarantee that the order will ever be accepted by Ford. Does this sound like a policy that encourages volume sales?

    As far as the head of SVT's statement, he may have been basing it on the previous years sales. He may be factoring in the amount of unsold 2012's sitting on dealers lots when the 2013 was put on sale and subtracting those cars from the total number cars manufactured to arrive at the actual number sold to customers (demand).

    Total production and total sales to retail customers are two different numbers. Ford has to estimate demand before they can set up for production and as far as they are concerned, their estimate should meet demand. If they over estimate the number of cars than they can sell to retail customers, they end up with unsold cars collecting dust on dealers lots. This may account for the lower projected number of cars for sale this year.

    As has been stated previously, without inside information all we are doing is speculating.

  8. #33
    SVT God Snoopy49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stinger99 View Post
    See I think that's where everyone is getting mixed up.

    Like you said in A earlier post Chris about the dealers asking crazy adm's for the cars. The dealers are controlling the market right now.
    It is not the dealers who are controlling the market, it is the supply. The greedy dealers (minority of the dealers) are just trying to take advantage of the limited supply.

    If the supply was not limited, how would you explain the over 2000 customers who have cars on order that have not even been scheduled for production?

  9. #34
    Former Ford Dealer Chris!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy49 View Post
    It is not the dealers who are controlling the market, it is the supply. The greedy dealers (minority of the dealers) are just trying to take advantage of the limited supply.

    If the supply was not limited, how would you explain the over 2000 customers who have cars on order that have not even been scheduled for production?
    If the car had been allocated-it will get scheduled.

    It's July 2012- from my source- there are still 5 months left left to build these cars- and they've only been being built for 2.5mos.

    I just think its premature that we speculate build numbers at this point

  10. #35
    SVT God Snoopy49's Avatar
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    Chris,
    The company had to figure out how many of these cars would be built long before they took the first order. They have to have a projected number of car to be built before they can allocate people and space to build the parts that are only used on this car. They also have to deal and coordinate with suppliers that sometimes require long lead times. Ford does not have the flexibility to increase there capacity at the drop of a hat, there are just too many people in the supply chain that have commitments of their own.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy49 View Post
    Chris,
    The company had to figure out how many of these cars would be built long before they took the first order. They have to have a projected number of car to be built before they can allocate people and space to build the parts that are only used on this car. They also have to deal and coordinate with suppliers that sometimes require long lead times. Ford does not have the flexibility to increase there capacity at the drop of a hat, there are just too many people in the supply chain that have commitments of their own.
    Agree. And that number is about 3,725.

  12. #37
    Former Ford Dealer Chris!'s Avatar
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    Youre more than welcome to continue with your theory- i just don't agree.


    They didn't set out to build x number of GT500s- they're also building the same car with the same motors and the same parts in 2014- they will continue to order parts from suppliers as long as there are people willing to buy the car. They don't put in a set order for parts at the beginning- they put in an initial order and then judge consumer demand for additional orders.

    Ill flip it on you- say the car was a flop- and no one bought it. They would be stuck with all these parts that they "anticipated" selling cars for- and they never sold- cause the cars weren't brin ordered.

    It's bad business.

    They order parts based on demand- not on a hunch of what they think they are going to sell- we're talking about Ford here- not GM

  13. #38
    SVT God Snoopy49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris! View Post
    If the car had been allocated-it will get scheduled.

    It's July 2012- from my source- there are still 5 months left left to build these cars- and they've only been being built for 2.5mos.

    I just think its premature that we speculate build numbers at this point
    I agree that all the cars that have been allocated at this time, will get built. But the question is, have all the allocations been used? Can someone still go down to their local dealer and order one of these cars? Ford can no longer accept orders when the number of allocations equals the number of cars that Ford is capable of building during the build window.
    No one but an insider could say with authority when the last day to order a GT500 will be, but I will bet you that day will come long before November 29, 2012.

  14. #39
    Former Ford Dealer Chris!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy49 View Post
    I agree that all the cars that have been allocated at this time, will get built. But the question is, have all the allocations been used? Can someone still go down to their local dealer and order one of these cars? Ford can no longer accept orders when the number of allocations equals the number of cars that Ford is capable of building during the build window.
    No one but an insider could say with authority when the last day to order a GT500 will be, but I will bet you that day will come long before November 29, 2012.
    Yes. Someone can still go down and order one- someone on this board just ordered one a couple of days back. Only a week ago- my dealer was awarded a 2nd allocation- and I was able to give it to someone here.

    There are still allocations available for people to order cars as of this past week. In fact one of my clients is looking for someone to take their second allocation- a Q4 build car- but they want over MSRP- so I havnt bothered to help.

    So yes- you can still order one.

    I mean no disrespect- but I know you're new here- and not sure where you are from- but Its already been said order banks will be open past that date. Take a few minutes to read around- alot of this stuff has already been gone over.

    This vehicle is a 2013. They're going to continue to build this car- and then begin building 2014s next spring.

  15. #40
    SVT God Snoopy49's Avatar
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    The order banks being open beyond the date I stated has no relevance in this discussion. They can be open until hell freezes over, but that doesn't apply to a limited production car like the GT500. I know you’re going to quote SVT's head guy and say this is not a limited production car because he said they will make all the cars anyone wants to buy plus 1. It is BS, the reality is they can only sell as many cars as they can make and they are limited to the number of cars they can make and that limit is determined before the first car is ordered. They can discontinue a model anytime they wish and I am sure there is a clause in the supplier contracts that addresses this situation. It may not be as easy to extend the run past the initial planned number of cars. They would have to make new or modify existing contracts to make sure they have the additional parts needed for the new production schedule. They would have to make arrangements with the union to increase the workforce or shuffle existing employees to cover the added labor requirement. Possible add a new shift and train the new employees. Before all this happens you have to convince the accountants (bean counters) that the company will benefit financially. Not an easy sell.

    It is not as simple as you imply, there are a lot of hoops that have to be jumped through before the decision to produce a car is even made. Whoever pitches the idea for the cars production has to show a demand, prove that they can sell enough cars to recover the expenses involved with the venture and make a profit. They have to project the anticipated demand (how many cars will be built) and show that they can make sure all the parts needed to produce the cars will be available at exactly the time they are needed. This requires elaborate supplier contracts to make sure the supplier is capable of not only making the parts required for the project, but also capable of delivering them when they are needed on the line. Most manufactures have more than one supplier for each part as an insurance policy to cover unforeseen delays. You can't make something without the parts. Plus they have to assure all the bean counters that the plan will work as advertised. Without knowing how many will be made, how can you make long term arrangements to make sure the parts, facilities and manpower needed are available when you need them.

    Ford doesn't contract for 4000 blowers and immediately take delivery and then warehouse them. They contract with the suppler and the supplier agrees to manufacture and deliverer them according to a schedule. The schedule will spell out exactly how many blowers are needed and there required delivery date. This also allows for any modifications that may need to be made do to potential design or manufacturing flaws can be accomplished in a timely manner.

    I have been associated with aircraft manufacturing for over 22 years and I know how hard it is to build something and some of the steps that are involved in the planning and production stages. I am no expert and never claim to be. But I do have some insight to the process.

  16. #41
    Former Ford Dealer Chris!'s Avatar
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    Ok.

  17. #42
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    Does anyone know if all of the allocations have been built? I swore I remember reading that once all the allocation vehicles were built then ford would start producing more cobras based on orders. I thought all of the first batch cars were set aside until all allocations were satisfied and each dealer allotment fulfilled. this may explain why dealers that have already sold their allocations can't order any more. Maybe once ford is done building cars for allotment the order banks will be open to all.

  18. #43
    Rookie SVT Poster RedWhite&Blown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris! View Post
    If the car had been allocated-it will get scheduled.

    It's July 2012- from my source- there are still 5 months left left to build these cars- and they've only been being built for 2.5mos.

    I just think its premature that we speculate build numbers at this point
    Exactly - "if" the car is allocated it will get built, but if a dealer has no or has no more allocations you are pretty much out of luck. That pretty much makes it limited production by definition. There may be a few dealers that get an "extra" allocation or so, but I, like many others have flat out been told by dealers they could not get me one. These dealers weren't trying to hold out and get an ADM out of the deal, they didn't even ask for contact info from me.

    I found one, got it at MSRP with a build date of next Thursday, but I have never had to work so hard to spend $65K in my life and others have been working just as hard and still haven't been able to. A LOT of dealers, as another poster said, would LOVE to sell at MSRP and simply can not get them. No doubt this is all just speculation at this point, but this is the perfect time to speculate. It won't be nearly as fun when the order year is over and we all know the answers.

  19. #44
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    I've said it before, but I think it is worth reiterating here.... There are many reasons why the car is limited in its production. Despite what some have heard about "Ford building as many as they can sell". It absolutely just isn't true.

    Many of the things listed in this thread are reasons why this isn't true: parts availability, desire to make the car more exclusive, scheduling issues, etc. Included in this are CAFE standards. Even if 100,000 people lumped out money for the new Cobra, Ford simply isn't going to build them (even if it could). CAFE fines are millions of dollars. You need to meet standard are you pay HEFTY fines. This also plays into Ford only wanting to build a certain number of these cars.

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  20. #45
    Crazy SVT Poster Dadz500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris! View Post
    Here's what we know.

    Less than 2000 have been built to date- in about 100 days of production.

    100 days from now- will be late October

    Here's my speculation:
    Word in my circles is build will stop around christmas

    That being said- at the current pace 4000-5000 cars.

    Remember- Ford will build as many as dealer's order.

    Problem is alot of dealer's that still have allocation are asking ADM's- even for an order- and people just aren't paying it. It looks like the dealers may be slowing down the builds.

    Many early orders were ADM-less- but now, not so much. Which means less people willing to pay $75k for a Mustang.
    Chris - Question for you. I know you have experience in the car business. So Ford will continue to build as long as orders come in, but if a Dealer only has allocation for 1-2 or 3-5 etc, can that Dealer still order? If not, doesn't this hurt Ford and allow them to only build a certain amount if Dealers can't order more then their allocations? What determines their allocation? What would be the highest allocation a Dealer would get?

    My local Dealer is a pretty huge Dealer, but it seems their allocation for Shelby's was very small in comparison to their size and the amount of units they sell of other models and Mustangs in general.
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  21. #46
    Former Ford Dealer Chris!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadz500 View Post
    Chris - Question for you. I know you have experience in the car business. So Ford will continue to build as long as orders come in, but if a Dealer only has allocation for 1-2 or 3-5 etc, can that Dealer still order? If not, doesn't this hurt Ford and allow them to only build a certain amount if Dealers can't order more then their allocations? What determines their allocation? What would be the highest allocation a Dealer would get?

    My local Dealer is a pretty huge Dealer, but it seems their allocation for Shelby's was very small in comparison to their size and the amount of units they sell of other models and Mustangs in general.
    Dealer can only order from what they were allocated- unless they were awarded another by their rep- there are dealers still with non-customer order allocations- probably due to ADM or potential ADM.

    Allocation is determined by previous mustang sales, the region they are located in (so cal dealers and Florida dealers will get more than new england dealer's), previous Shelby sold, overall vehicle sales volume, and taking more "off" vehicles (stick no AC snot green fiestas come to mind) all come into place.

    An example:
    We had to take 4 stick no AC rangers in colors such as " burnt dogshit" and "sinus infection green" AND two automatic bright yellow no option V6 mustangs for our rep to even consider giving us a Ford GT back in 2006
    Last edited by Chris!; 07-28-2012 at 10:12 PM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris! View Post
    An example:
    We had to take 4 stick no AC rangers in colors such as " burnt dogshit" and "sinus infection green" AND two automatic bright yellow no option V6 mustangs for our rep to even consider giving us a Ford GT back in 2006
    LOL! That's pretty funny.

  23. #48
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    I think it is a lot more simpler than some of you are making it out to be. If it wasn't a limited production vehicle, than there would be no need for the whole allocation system.
    Simply let dealers order as many as they can sell!!! You only have an allocation system if something is limited, otherwise it is unnecessary.

    I asked Jamal Hameedi, at the Chicago auto show, "Will this be a limited production model?" He stated "Ford will build as many as they can sell minus 1." I believe Ford under estimated the demand for a 65K+ Mustang.

    BTW, I know 2 or 3 Dealers that still have their 1st allocation available to order for 5 - 10K over MSRP.
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  24. #49
    SVT God Snoopy49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman5000 View Post
    BTW, I know 2 or 3 Dealers that still have their 1st allocation available to order for 5 - 10K over MSRP.
    Does the saying "You Snooze You Lose" apply to dealers that sit on their first allocations to long?
    There are dealers in California that have 4 or 5 GT500's for sale and on their lots. They can't all be 1st allocations, can they?
    Last edited by Snoopy49; 07-28-2012 at 10:49 PM.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmboy90 View Post
    Yeah, I'll try and ask if they can tell. The only number I saw on 7/17 was that there were 2,294 that were "unscheduled". But all this number really means is 3,725 minus the 1,431 that were already built or in-production. So it doesn't say how many of the 2,294 were orders in the system (but still unscheduled). I'll see if I can get that breakdown. On 7/17, here were the numbers:

    Unscheduled - 2,294
    In the Plant - 454
    Memo Count - 1 (no idea what this means)
    In Transit - 109
    Demo Count - 2 (not sure what exactly this means either)
    Stock count - 185 (not sure on this either, but maybe that is how many are on dealer lots??)
    Unit 12 Sales - 680 (no idea on this either. Maybe I'll ask what this means).
    I would be extremely curious to learn how many allocations were allowed by SVT for the 2013 if you can find that out, please. The first dealer I tried to work with was informed during the last week of April how many allocations they were allowed for the 2013. I'd guess that all dealers were informed about the same time.

    Ford/SVT really should have a system of advertising which dealers have allocations remaining; the truth. Those that hold the last 100 allocations are for example going to have a hard time matching up with customers because it's such a chore to do a national search.

    I also think Ford should have its own listing of all GT500 inventory as easily accessible as cars.com or autotrader. Why shouldn't they? That's to their benefit.

    Any customer who truly wants one and has the $$$ ready should be able to get one either off a lot somewhere, or ordered if the options they want are not available on a lot, or if one is available but there's an ADM on it.

    Thanks very much for your gems fb90.

    btw: if a dealer now cannot get an order accepted if they don't have an allocation available, it is much better to know that. early in the year, before dealers were informed of how many 2013 allocations they would get, orders were accepted, sometimes without that allocation eventually being granted. maybe after too, i don't know. but if that's now not the case, at least you're not definitely waiting for something that is never going to materialize...although none of this is guaranteed even now as the setup stands.

    I know that if you have your car, you're probably not concerned, but for those of us still waiting, we're trying to gauge, and this is the most useful info we seem to have to work with.
    Last edited by reason4treason; 07-29-2012 at 10:03 PM.
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