I just got off the phone with my tuner and he confirmed what some of you guys were saying. I have 18* of timing in it for now, I don't know if the crappy air here will allow anymore or not. The air in Amarillo is about the same as Denver Co. It is 3200ft elevation but the air is so bad it is equal to 5200ft.
I might start doing some weight reduction soon, such as convertable stuff that I don't really use anyhow. Like I said I hope to go to Noble soon to see what a good track and better air will produce. If you guys know the elevation of where you are running could you also include that...
I just got off the phone with my tuner and he confirmed what some of you guys were saying. I have 18* of timing in it for now, I don't know if the crappy air here will allow anymore or not. The air in Amarillo is about the same as Denver Co. It is 3200ft elevation but the air is so bad it is equal to 5200ft.
I might start doing some weight reduction soon, such as convertable stuff that I don't really use anyhow. Like I said I hope to go to Noble soon to see what a good track and better air will produce. If you guys know the elevation of where you are running could you also include that...
If anything you could get away with more timing with your altitude than compared to sea level.
____________________________________ Black 2003 Cobra
Posi Ported Blower, Dragon TB/Plenum, RR 2.65/Metco 4lb, Bassani Headers, Mac Prochamber, Borla Stingers, JLT RAI w/ 12" Filter, Compucar Wet Kit, SCT PRP.
New numbers one day.......
6.9 @102 Eaton
11.00 @ 127 Eaton
6.88 @ 104 Best 1/8...Ported Eaton/50 shot N2O
10.71 @ 133 Best 1/4...Ported Eaton/50 shot N2O
It needs to be plumbed after the blower in the lower intake. If you run it before the blower the cooling affect meth has will be negated by the blower heating the air up as it compresses.
negative
____________________________________
- Mike Thomas -
2007 Black/Black Corvette ZO6
2004 Torch Red Whipple Cobra - 10.66 @ 131(Sold July 09)
2006 Black/Red Mustang GT(boltons) - 12.85 @ 106 best mph (Sold Sept. 07)
Something is wrong either air-wise or tune wise. . . 113 is horrid for a ported car
i went 11.7 @ 121 on a 2.76, intake, exhaust on mickey radials. . . 1.75 60ft
113 is what a stock cobra can trap. . . if you can get a video of your next runs at the track, post them up, we can see your driving as well, because that is a factor too. . .
16. Where can I mount the nozzle?
Pre- or Post- throttle body/carburetor?
• Performance: It makes almost no difference. Before or after the throttle plate(s) won’t change the effectiveness of the fluid. A given amount of fluid will absorb a given amount of heat, whether it is done more before or after the throttle plate really doesn’t matter.
• Installation: It is usually easier to inject pre-throttle body in the intake tube. Easy access, no solenoid required (unless rear-mounting a reservoir). On a carburetor, it can actually be easier to use the #40050 carb spacer plate and a #40060 solenoid for a bolt-in installation. These components are included in our RT and MC series systems.
• In a blow-through carburetor setup with an air-box enclosure around the entire carburetor, injecting after the carburetor is preferable.
Pre- or Post- Supercharger/Turbocharger?
• Centrifugal/Turbo: (Procharger, Vortech, Paxton, Powerdyne, Rotrex, etc.) Never mount an injector nozzle before a centrifugal supercharger or turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum, as well as serve to reduce the atomization. Instead of a fine mist, the compressor housing will create a river of fluid along the outside wall that means we get less benefit and use more fluid.
• Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge.
• Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge.
The benefits of Methanol injection will be negated when sprayed through the blower and stock IC. The rotors will benefit slightly from the meth cooling them down, but regardless the air charge will be heated back up from the rotors compressing the air. Then on top of that the IC will heat the air up again if it is still colder than the fluid running through the IC. The only way to really make it work and benefit the OP is if it was run after the blower/IC.
The benefits of Methanol injection will be negated when sprayed through the blower and stock IC. The rotors will benefit slightly from the meth cooling them down, but regardless the air charge will be heated back up from the rotors compressing the air. Then on top of that the IC will heat the air up again if it is still colder than the fluid running through the IC. The only way to really make it work and benefit the OP is if it was run after the blower/IC.
Well. . . you should just contact snow and tell them you have everything figured out and that they don't know what they are talking about. . .
cooling down air that is already compressed is not going to be as cool as air that is already cool then being compressed. . . and I'm not going to break down the physics for you. . .
Well. . . you should just contact snow and tell them you have everything figured out and that they don't know what they are talking about. . .
cooling down air that is already compressed is not going to be as cool as air that is already cool then being compressed. . . and I'm not going to break down the physics for you. . .
You're trying to say that cooling the air then compressing (heating it) it would be more effective then cooling it after its already been compressed? Well I'll take the word of the many people that have tried it and seen no results, then the company trying to sell products.
Here's a nice quote from one of the guys on Modfords in a recent Methanol discussion....
Quote:
Did you ever wonder how aspirin knows what to do when you take it? It doesn't matter if you have a headache, muscle cramps or what ever aspirin seems to go right after what is wrong, no matter what is wrong. How's it know where to go?
Wellll, (here comes the story) ...
The intercooler in a Terminator is like a very simplified thermodynamic aspirin for our intake system. Like Black2003Cobra said, it is in actual fact a heat exchanger, Ford just chose to call it an intercooler. As a heat exchanger it attempts to take anything that passes through it and level its temperature to the temperature of the intercooler coolant. That means cooling the hot stuff and heating the cool stuff.
How effective it is depends on how much heat energy per unit time it is capable of transferring and how much heat energy per unit time is being introduced to it by the fluid that is passing across its heating/cooling surfaces. As long as it can dissipate more energy than the fluid passing across/through it can introduce, it will move the fluid towards intercooler coolant temperature. If the heat energy per unit time passing through the intercooler is greater than its capacity to dissipate then the intercooler coolant temperature will move towards the temperature of the fluid that is passing through it. This is a simplified rendering of the real process but for our summary level analysis, more than adequate.
Whenever we inject methanol ahead of the intercooler the intercooler moves the methanol cooled intake charge towards the coolant temperature in the intercooler. It actually heats the methanol cooled charge back to intercooler coolant temperature! This is why methanol on a Cobra behaves differently than on an engine without an intercooler.
If we want to get the benefit of the charge cooling the methanol is capable of providing we must inject it after the intercooler and before the intake valve. Injection after the intercooler prevents the intercooler from heating the cooled charge back to intercooler coolant temperatures.
I don't believe anyone offers this type of methanol injection, yet.
Because the Killer Chiller dramatically drops the coolant temperature in the intercooler cooling fluid and enhances the amount of heat transferred to the outside air through the A/C heat exchanger in front of the radiator it is very unlikely you could significantly improve on the job the Killer Chiller does without a great deal of engineering and associated cost. The Killer Chiller may well be the most significant improvement we can make to our intake system.
And in the 'oh by the way' department, as usual, Black2003Cobra is right again ...
Your alittle behind the Cobra curve there MustangMikeKy, this point has been beat to death on several sites by alot of great tuners and very smart Terminator folks in general over the years. It has been proven that after the blower and intercooler is best for meth injection. You might wanna do a little search and read up some (not just ads trying to sell you stuff). The after blower method is very labor intensive and not for your average cobra guy so thats why alot dont do it even if its best.
Oh and to the OP my ported numbers and mods are in my sig. What cc dish did you use for your pistons on your rebuild, you may be battling lower than stock static compression as well as low timing and could be compounding your problems.
____________________________________
Silver 03 Cobra 2.76/#4 combo, 3.2 alt.
Stage IV ported blower, Dragon TB and plenum
Flowmaster CB, K@N FIPK, Mac LTs and o/r h-pipe
built solid rear, 4.10s, MT ET Streets on Welds
Xcal2 tuned by Jon Lund, 8pt S&W roll bar, Corbeau TRS seats
UPR K member, Teksid block
10.90 @ 124.6 1.47 sixty
Last edited by mustang john; 04-21-2009 at 08:38 PM.
The guys that have tuned and figured the Meth out all say to install it after the IC. It's a very long and well discussed topic.
OP you can easily have a Race Tune to load with 23*'s of timing and a splash of Race Gas if your tuner won't do it on 93 octane. Just tell him you want it done. If he acts a little strange you need to find another tuner.
____________________________________
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He said you are wasting your time. . . which is entirely incorrect . . . There are articles where cobras are picking up 60-70 rwhp from a tune . . . that's not a F*cking waste of time IMO
but, what do i know . . .
I'll let u know how much hp i pick up from my waste-o-time kit
Your alittle behind the Cobra curve there MustangMikeKy, this point has been beat to death on several sites by alot of great tuners and very smart Terminator folks in general over the years. It has been proven that after the blower and intercooler is best for meth injection. You might wanna do a little search and read up some (not just ads trying to sell you stuff). The after blower method is very labor intensive and not for your average cobra guy so thats why alot dont do it even if its best.
Oh and to the OP my ported numbers and mods are in my sig. What cc dish did you use for your pistons on your rebuild, you may be battling lower than stock static compression as well as low timing and could be compounding your problems.
Not behind here. . . Im nor the op is trying to set a methanol record on the dyno . . . the kit makes HP with a tune. . .
we aren't talking about just water injection
/discussion
Last edited by MustangMikeKy; 04-21-2009 at 09:01 PM.
He said you are wasting your time. . . which is entirely incorrect . . . There are articles where cobras are picking up 60-70 rwhp from a tune . . . that's not a F*cking waste of time IMO
but, what do i know . . .
I'll let u know how much hp i pick up from my waste-o-time kit
You do know magazines are biased toward the products they write articles about right? I love the mustang mags but i take them all with a grain of salt and double check their findings with real world findings on products im interested in on sites like this one among others. Definetly let us know how your meth works out, ive seen alot of guys install them and gain nothing more often then not and when there are gains they are small and if there are large gains then the money and time spent on tuning is outrageous. Just my .02 on the subject, ive been off the boards a while so ive got a larger reservoir of hot air then usual.
You do know magazines are biased toward the products they write articles about right? I love the mustang mags but i take them all with a grain of salt and double check their findings with real world findings on products im interested in on sites like this one among others. Definetly let us know how your meth works out, ive seen alot of guys install them and gain nothing more often then not and when there are gains they are small and if there are large gains then the money and time spent on tuning is outrageous. Just my .02 on the subject, ive been off the boards a while so ive got a larger reservoir of hot air then usual.
It's all good . . . I've seen several diff dyno graphs, I'm looking forward to getting some more timing and a little less fuel for my track tune. . .
I just got back from the track, and was wondering if my track time was slow. Also post up your track times and mods! I have a 03 Convert Cobra with: bored .020 over stock block, Diamond pistons, ARP studs, full bassani exhaust, Accufab throttle body, CAI, Methanol injection, 2.8 upper pulley, 4# lower pulley, Spec 3+ clutch and steel flywheel, B&M ripper shifter, Poly IRS bushings, 3.73 gears and some other braces. I ran a 12.29 @ 113 in the 1/4 with a 1.77 60ft time Saturday night. I was on Mickey Thompson ET streets, with very little (if any) tire spin off the line. I was launching at about 4200rpm's.
HONEST MAN ITS NOT RIGHT MY CAR RAN 11.9@118MPH WITH JUST BOLT ONS
PULLEYD AND DRAGS WHERE DID U GET UR CAR TUNED AT
The guys that have tuned and figured the Meth out all say to install it after the IC. It's a very long and well discussed topic.
OP you can easily have a Race Tune to load with 23*'s of timing and a splash of Race Gas if your tuner won't do it on 93 octane. Just tell him you want it done. If he acts a little strange you need to find another tuner.
The fuel octane here is also another problem, where I am at we only have 90. There is one place in town that sells 92 octane but it is shitty gas. I used it once and it plugged my fuel filter after about half a tank. You guys are lucky to have 93 octane for your Cobra, I know I wish I did.
So I guess with all this being said I do have several reasons why my track times and MPH is way off from the rest of you guys. What do you guys think, is all of this stuff put together is my problem???
You can still run 90 octane with a mix of race gas or some Torco additive to get enough octane to run 23*'s of timing for the track. Your tuner should do this fairly cheap.
You can still run 90 octane with a mix of race gas or some Torco additive to get enough octane to run 23*'s of timing for the track. Your tuner should do this fairly cheap.
+1 when i go see the tuner im getting my 91 octane tune and a seperate tune for 100 octane
I will talk to my tuner about a track tune and a street tune. I might just keep the race tune all the time because the only time I drive my car is to the track and if the weather is really nice. Anyone have a clue how much race gas it would take to raise the octane to like 95 or some where in there?? What octane race gas also, pump gas here is only 90 octane!!
Yes something is very wrong man. I just have an upper pulley with the supporting mods and drove over an hr to the track and drove right in line and went 11.70 at 120 almost 121 mph. Just take your time you will get it worked out.
Our ported eaton cobra went 7.11 @ 99 mph with a 1.59 60 foot on mt's and irs...his car also made 500 hp/575 tq...
We had another ported eaton cobra that went 11.25 @ 125 at famoso raceway in mcfarland, ca!
____________________________________ "IF YOU CANT HERE THE WHINE,
YOU MUST BE BEHIND!!!!
10.47@ 134.02 (1.57) @ 3000+ FT ELEVATION
& 10.58@ 135 (1.69) BOGGING!
"QUICKEST & FASTEST IRS/6SPD/ ON DRAG RADIALS IN CALI"...*DONE ON 17' FR500'S*
*2.3 WHIPPLE, STOCK MOTOR*
*TUNED BY DANNY SWANSON @ SWANSON PERFORMANCE IN TORRANCE, CA*
SO*CAL FTW!
"INFAMOUS*RACING"
Vehicle: 2003 TORCH RED TERMINATOR
HP: 527
TQ: 545
Well I'll take the word of the many people that have tried it and seen no results, then the company trying to sell products. 
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