Cast iron block vs. Aluminum block

[ITSTOCK]

I'm not going to argue either point, but just add my opinion, while not directly basing my opinion on block DESIGN principles.

In my opinion, the iron was the better choice do to longevity and climate differences. Aluminum is more malible than iron, and when a car is expected to last well over 50,xxx miles with close to 400rwhp stock, than it's obvious that the iron was the better choice.

As far as the design of the actual iron block compared to the al. block, I have no clue of what's diff, but I imagine a LOT is different.

BOTH blocks can take the power, iron or aluminum, there is no doubt about it. As already seen with the LS1 crowd, people started switching over to the 6 liter IRON block, simply for a stronger foundation for a stroker motor, and the added reassurance.

As for myself, 100 pounds can be made up in horsepower, no big deal. I am happy with the iron block and do NOT PLAN on getting aluminum.

 

[HISSMAN]

Originally posted by JSHTROD
Absolutely FANTASTIC post.

Thank you.

:read:

I try.:thumbsup:

 

[BLU-BLZ 03SNAKE]

my point exactly!

 

[Jpjr]

Originally posted by cpu77
If two motors are designed identical the only difference is the material they are made of. I would take the iron one every time! If the aluminum is designed better then I take it!

This is the only 'fact' here. This is physically true. Iron is stronger and more reliable than aluminum, given the same design.

For enough $$ you can have a very strong aluminum block. Sort of like for enough cash you can build a wheel out of carbon fiber. If that was the point then I don't think it was ever in question.

 

[VENOM98]

Originally posted by ITSTOCK
As already seen with the LS1 crowd, people started switching over to the 6 liter IRON block, simply for a stronger foundation for a stroker motor, and the added reassurance.

The LS1 crowd is using the iron block for economic reasons. It was designed as a 6.0 block. It is a bolt on affair so no need for specialized machining/sleeveing etc. It is a way more cheaper choice over the other, the C5R block which retails for 6500.00. The stock aluminum LS1 block is incredibly strong and has proven itself plenty stout for most serious power adder applications. It like a 5.7 iron block are not designed to be bored to the same dimensions as a 6.0 block. Either way, you try to overbore an iron or aluminum block, you will encounter heating issues as well as fatigue. Thus the 6.0 truck block makes sense. I can tell you guys that the Teksid block will be up to par with any iron block from ford. There are too many pioneering racers like John Mijovez that have proven that so...........

 

[HISSMAN]

I am having my 98 block built up with 04 cobra heads, forged internals, and a whipple charger, not to mention it is going to displace 5.0 liters when completed. It will make 600 RWHP, but can be set to 700 hp with just a new tune and pulley swap. THis is going to be my daily driver, not my track car. If I thought that I would have to pull this thing apart and rebuild it after 30,000 miles I would not do it to begin with. The Teksid block is strong as hell. But I guess there will always be doubters, hell I was one when I first got into the Modular world. Now my eyes have seen the light.

 

[yeasure]

It's like i said before, most 03/04 cobra owners have no clue about the mod motors(which i 100% understand, everyone starts somewhere).
But when you show them something and they just ignore what you're telling them it can and will piss you off.
Hiss said it best, when i first got into mod motors back in 96 i thought the samething but now it's been 8 years and i know better from reading/watching the big boys do this year after year, testing over and over.
It's honestly funny watching them posts all this info about other engines/casting but they just can't understand we're talking about lincoln/ford mod motors.
I use to laugh when the 03 cobra came out because a bunch of 03 owners made fun of the older cobras like they were crap not knowing that honestly those cars/engine were build very well(minus the pistons/rods/oil pump gear).
They all have their pros and cons but the blocks have never been an issue.....never.
I say to anyone new to the mod motors, you should buy SHM book, very good info but remember SHM is going to tell you the 96-99 blocks are the strongest so you none believers may want to stay away.
And for the people who don't know who John Mihovetz is, heres alittle something for you all

4V Power Adder 1/4 ET:
John Mihovetz (Accufab) - 6.83 @ 205.00 ( 2002 COUGAR TUBE CHASSIS, 4V 4.6, LENCO - TURBO )
John Mihovetz (Accufab) - 7.45 @ 187.00 ( 1996 MUSTANG TUBE CHASSIS, 4V 4.6, POWERGLIDE - TURBO )
John Mihovetz (Accufab) - 8.80 @ 156.00 ( 1993 MUSTANG COUPE, 4V 4.6, POWERGLIDE - BLOWER )

I tell you, those aluminum blocks are weak......lmao
Everyone have a great weekend:beer:

 

[Silver2003Cobra]

how good will an 96-99 Teksid block handle say 650 net hp, for 150K miles? I'm guessing it WILL fail..

 

[Jpjr]

Originally posted by Silver2003Cobra
how good will an 96-99 Teksid block handle say 650 net hp, for 150K miles? I'm guessing it WILL fail..

-i think that yeasure is actually implying that we put faith in aluminum just because he told us so. no numbers to back it up, just opinion. i wonder if i spend 10k on a charged aluminum block making 1200 hp if yeasure will warranty it?, lol.

aluminum blocks are banned at hundreds of racetracks around the country, and we've heard plenty of stories about supercharged aluminum mustangs blowing up after 20-30k miles. i'm sure this italian motor is great, and built to handle high hp. but i'll play it safe with cast iron in my cobra. you guys can use aluminum and beat me on the track and say 'i told you so'. i'm fine with that!!

 

[GTSpartan]

What does a '03-'04 cobra engine weigh? I think I heard (can't validate) somewhere around 600+ lbs. If thats true that is pretty heavy for an engine of that size. For straitline acceleration an iron block is probably best, but overall vehicle dynamics suffer greatly, especially the cobras with the strut suspension and high center of gravity. If you only care about going strait, I would definately go with iron, but I am talking about total vehicle performance. I don't know much about Ford blocks nor do I pretend to, but I have seen very high HP cars with aluminum blocks handle the power reliabely. And for some who think they will just add more power to a iron block to offset the weight, that will further decrease dynamics because you now have to deal with more abrupt weight transfer. Not trying to start anything, just giving my opinion becasue this is a very good topic of discussion.

 

[yeasure]

I honestly think Jpjr is looking to push my buttons.
We've asked you over and over for you to show us and you've showed us nothing but at the sametime we have posted you tons of info to back up everything we've posed and you're still saying we've done nothing.
Seems like you're just wanting to fight about this and it will never end.:bored:

 

[Boosted 03]

Sean Hyland motorsports/ How to build a High Performance 4.6

Page 6 (Cylinder Blocks)
"We at Sean Hyland Motorsports have successfully used the
'96-'98 Cobra Aluminum blocks as a basis for engines of up to 1500 hp. Block, PN#F6LZ-6010-AB, was also used in the '93-'98 Lincoln Mark 8. Origionally this block was cast in Italy by Teksid, a supplier to Ferrari and others. This block is cast in Sae 319 modified alloy aluminum before it is heat treated and aged to achieve the desired characteristics. Overall, we have achieved good results with this light weight (85.40lbs) alloy block."

Page 7
At this time, we have not used the later block for any extreme horspower applications, and some attempts by others have resulted in block failure. Our recommendation is that early blocks (96-98) is the best foundation for power levels above 900 hp,
although the later (99-up) should certainly be adequate for moderate power levels of up to 600 hp with proper pre.

Page 6

The late model blocks (2001-up) are a lighter weight (80.40lbs) casting using SAE 319 modified alloy.

Page 11 (For inquiring minds that want to know)
Cold start up Knock

One of the challenges with the 4.6 liter engine is the fact that the piston is pulled so far out of the bore at the bottom of the stroke. The largest piston diameter comes clear out of the bore, allowing the piston to contact the cylinder wall on change of direction, creating noise when cold.

These are all quotes from the SHM book, not my own.

:coolman:

 

[yeasure]

If i remember correct the 99 block is a Teksid block, anyone honestly know.
Big John had it listed as the strongest over the 93-98 blocks.
Anyone have info on this casting?
Good point Boosted 03, i'm quoting from others, not my own words, just for the record.

 

[Jpjr]

Originally posted by yeasure
I honestly think Jpjr is looking to push my buttons.
We've asked you over and over for you to show us and you've showed us nothing but at the sametime we have posted you tons of info to back up everything we've posed and you're still saying we've done nothing.
Seems like you're just wanting to fight about this and it will never end.:bored:

You've been bashing people throughout this thread. If you can't take the heat, then your no different than most aluminum blocks!! (j/k)

What I asked for were 'numbers' and not 'testimonials'. This is no different than me saying 'FIPK IS BETTER!!'.. and you say 'No, I use a MAC intake and so do all my friends so its better!!'

I've said at least 4 times during this thread that a better designed and more expensive aluminum block could be as reliable as iron.. but most aren't and the cost often doesn't justify the benefit.

 

[Boosted 03]

Originally posted by yeasure
If i remember correct the 99 block is a Teksid block, anyone honestly know.
Big John had it listed as the strongest over the 93-98 blocks.
Anyone have info on this casting?
Good point Boosted 03, i'm quoting from others, not my own words, just for the record.

Yes, you are correct. The 99 is still a Teksid block, but with some changes.

Page 6 (SHM)

"In 1999, Ford changed the main cap detail, eliminating the jackscrews that preloaded the side of the main cap. They also changed the width of the cap, and switched to a different side bolt with a higher torque value. The diameter for the knock sensor hole was also changed from M8x1.25 to M12x1.50. We simply drill and tap these holes if we are using the '99 block in an earlier chasis. The part number for the '99 block is XR3Z-6010-CA."

This is a quote from SHM guide to building a 4.6 engine by CARTECH.

 

[HISSMAN]

Originally posted by Jpjr
-i think that yeasure is actually implying that we put faith in aluminum just because he told us so. no numbers to back it up, just opinion. i wonder if i spend 10k on a charged aluminum block making 1200 hp if yeasure will warranty it?, lol.

aluminum blocks are banned at hundreds of racetracks around the country, and we've heard plenty of stories about supercharged aluminum mustangs blowing up after 20-30k miles. i'm sure this italian motor is great, and built to handle high hp. but i'll play it safe with cast iron in my cobra. you guys can use aluminum and beat me on the track and say 'i told you so'. i'm fine with that!!

The only reason any teksid block has ever blown up is due to piston, rod, crank, or valve train failure. And this would kill any block, even Titanium. :-D Every Latemodel 4V engine that I know of that is being used for high horspower race applications is a Teksid Block. Hell, I am thinking of buying one to put in storage before they are all taken, for a later build up on another car.

The only cobra blocks that I know of that have failed for any other reason have been 2001 cobras. We are not just telling you so.
Here are some links:

http://modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13736&highlight=Teksid

http://modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11748&highlight=Teksid

http://modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11693&highlight=Teksid

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=468742&highlight=Teksid

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=464755&highlight=Teksid

It is not my fault if you do not want to read any of these. You wanted other peoples thoughts, so here you go. I have about 1,000 more like these, but I am sure you know how to use google.

 

[yeasure]

Jpjr, i'll reread the full post tonight but i don't recall you saying anything like your last post(i'll reread, maybe i overlooked it).
It seems like you can't either read/don't want to read because you're afraid you're wrong or you just want to fight about this.
If i can't take the heat huh, let me ask you something, you think fighting about this we are learning anything?
The only thing you keep doing is saying we have no clue/info/numbers when we do you just don't listen/read.
You're pushing and pushing until one of us just says f*ck it and we stop posting.
Remember by saying we're wrong or we have no clue is saying people like John M./Joe Stewart/Dave King/Bob Cosby/many others have no clue about this.
You just can't understand we're speaking about modular motors. What you are saying is 100% true on some engines/casting but it's not the same on these engines, in this case the aluminum blocks are just as strong or stronger then the cast iron blocks(depending on casting/years).
I also made it clear way back that this info was post by other, hell i posted what they posted(myself, hiss man and other have posted links, quotes, numbers and you still want to fight about this.:shrug: )
Jpjr, think about this, i own a 03 cobra, cast iron, yes i wish this block was the strongest mod motor block ever casted, it's not(not bad either i must say myself) but the fact is the 96-99 blocks are stronger and lighter.
This may make you happy(maybe)..... Joe Stewart did say the 99 Windsor block is the strongest cast iron block(4.6) ford has had, take it for what it's worth.

 

[snakeeyes99]

This post although informative, is also crazy. You iron block supporters aren't listening to the facts.

Fact
Iron is stronger than aluminum. Everyone agrees. Physics proves it. Stop arguing it.

But.......

Fact
If you are racing and all things are equal with engine internals and power adder, the TEKSID aluminum block is the superior block for racing. If it can handle 1200hp, then why are all the iron block guys ranting about the strength issue. WHY WOULDN"T YOU WANT A LIGHTER CAR?? LIGHTER CARS ARE BETTER FOR ACCELERATION AND HANDLING!!!

So get over the fact that you have an iron block that is not as superior for weight savings as the TEKSID aluminum block.

Stop talking about strength. Because both blocks are proven for the power levels you all want to make. What - do you want to move a 747 or something? 1200hp reliability not good enough?

If the TEKSID has been proven and used by SHM for racing, then why the hell would you stick with your iron is better theory?

Better for what?


If you have an aluminum block that can handle the 1200hp, then its clearly an advantage wieght wise over an iron one.
Most of you aren't going to make that kind of power. You'll all be happy with 500-700hp. So if that is about half the stress you could give a Teksid block, then why wouldn't you say its the better choice?

I'll say it straight to you 03-4 cobra owners who are arguing this.

You are slightly pissed at this situation because you have to come with grips that not everything in the car is superior to previous cobras. And that pisses you off because you don't want to be second to anyone in any aspect of the car. I think everyone can understand your situation.

Just take it like a man and realize the facts. If you don't, then you don't have respect for the PROFESSIONALS who work in the field and invest much money into time tesing, research, and racing of all materials/products.

That's their life. Their name is on the on line.
That's the proof.

Lighter is better for racing. That's why they use it.

Do you get it now?????

 

[03blacksnake]

I think that about sums it up... :beer:

 

[Jpjr]

Originally posted by yeasure
Jpjr, i'll reread the full post tonight but i don't recall you saying anything like your last post(i'll reread, maybe i overlooked it).
It seems like you can't either read/don't want to read because you're afraid you're wrong or you just want to fight about this.
If i can't take the heat huh, let me ask you something, you think fighting about this we are learning anything?
The only thing you keep doing is saying we have no clue/info/numbers when we do you just don't listen/read.
You're pushing and pushing until one of us just says f*ck it and we stop posting.
Remember by saying we're wrong or we have no clue is saying people like John M./Joe Stewart/Dave King/Bob Cosby/many others have no clue about this.
You just can't understand we're speaking about modular motors. What you are saying is 100% true on some engines/casting but it's not the same on these engines, in this case the aluminum blocks are just as strong or stronger then the cast iron blocks(depending on casting/years).
I also made it clear way back that this info was post by other, hell i posted what they posted(myself, hiss man and other have posted links, quotes, numbers and you still want to fight about this.:shrug: )
Jpjr, think about this, i own a 03 cobra, cast iron, yes i wish this block was the strongest mod motor block ever casted, it's not(not bad either i must say myself) but the fact is the 96-99 blocks are stronger and lighter.
This may make you happy(maybe)..... Joe Stewart did say the 99 Windsor block is the strongest cast iron block(4.6) ford has had, take it for what it's worth.

Dude.. How many times do you need me to repeat myself!?!!?!

YES, THE ALUMINUM MOTOR CAN BE STRONG ENOUGH IF BUILT WELL.

I'm not trying to chase you away, or trying to be rude. I've repeated that I understand your words in almost every one of my postings. Seriously, go look at them.

Yes, in one of my posts to Hissman I said that I have learned a lot about aluminum blocks and how they can be reliable when I thought that they were fairly unreliable for high boost applications.

After saying all that, I think you are pissed off that I'm not rushing out to buy an aluminum block anytime soon. Here again is why:

1. Cost
2. Physically weaker than a harder metal iron block
3. I would need to see hard numbers on reliability.

Is that fair for me to say? Have a good weekend....

-jpjr