Motorcraft 5W50 VOA

[UnleashedBeast]

Red Line Racing Oil has no less than 2200ppm of zinc and phosphorus present for antiwear.

So if I add one bottle of Red Line Zinc & Phosphorus addittive to (7) Quarts of Red Line Oil I will have Phosphorus at 1307 ppm & Zinc 1577 ppm.

DEAD ON FOR A DAILY DRIVER

AMSOIL 10W-40 and 20W-50 has those amounts in the standard formulation, and that's without adding anything extra. That's the only "main" point I was trying to make.

UnleashedBeast knows what he's talking about and has obviously done a lot of research in this field. You don't have to agree with him, but you should absolutely respect and consider his insight. Everything he's saying is objective and can be backed by fact, not just opinion. Just do some research yourself and you'll see.

Where do I buy you a beer, because you are kinda awesome. :beer:

 

[apexchain]

We are talking 5-W50 :bash:

PREHAPS the Amsoil 10W-40 & 20W-50 has those levels. Show me.

In any case this entire thread has been about 5W-50. THAT IS IT!!!

AMSOIL 10W-40 and 20W-50 has those amounts in the standard formulation, and that's without adding anything extra. That's the only "main" point I was trying to make.



Where do I buy you a beer, because you are kinda awesome. :beer:

 

[UnleashedBeast]

We are talking 5-W50 :bash:

PREHAPS the Amsoil 10W-40 & 20W-50 has those levels. Show me.

In any case this entire thread has been about 5W-50. THAT IS IT!!!

When the UOA results on all oils discussed in the GT500 section the past month come to light, you will not WANT to discuss anything about 5W-50 any longer.

:nono:

 

[apexchain]

In the end, we are talking 5W-50, correct?

If an owner uses 5W-50 Oil Weight & adds Red-Line Zinc additive, that is the most ideal route in the 50 weight application to obtain the appropriate anti-wear protection. Right?

You are on the notion of using other weight Oils, I understand that. However again I can not stress enough that this thread is about 5W50.

When the UOA results on all oils discussed in the GT500 section the past month come to light, you will not WANT to discuss anything about 5W-50 any longer.

:nono:

 

[PistolWhip]

It is absurd for anybody to dispute that additional Zinc/Phosphorus additive is not warranted, Especially during BREAK-IN. PERIOD. SIMPLE AS THAT.

Rebuttal?



Why do you think they sell it under Racing "Engine & Break-In?



That is as arbitrary as saying that Amsoil Oil Filters are not justified as well over Ford Filters. They are far superior to Fords. Additional protection!! In addition these Zinc/Phosphorus additive are very expensive as well FYI. Another reason why there is a limit. If you want more pay for it!

Rebuttal of what??? Are you just here looking for a fight or are you trying to add worthwhile content to this discussion? Re read my post and you'll clearly see that I didn't exactly disagree with anything you said. All I said was that if you use oil that NEEDS an additive, you probably aren't using the right oil. I changed my oil for the first time a few weeks ago and RedLine is what went in. I didn't add any additives because the levels of ZDDP additives in the RedLine right out of the bottle are more than enough to get the job done in this engine. If you feel the need to add it, more power to yea, but I don't and don't recommend it to anyone that asks.

ZDDP is not the holy grail of engine lubrication as you are making it seem. It’s simply one part of the equation and in engines that use over head cams or roller lifters / followers, the overwhelming amounts of ZDDP that used to be needed are no longer needed. Solid flat tappet cam profiles, as specially high lift and long duration cams, required WAY MORE anti-wear additives (ZDDP and Molly) in the oil to maintain lubricity under high pressure (between the cam lobe and the lifter). However the increasing use of roller cams and in our case, the overhead design with roller followers, vastly reduced that high pressure high friction contact between the cam lobe surface and the lifter head surface. Please explain to me where else in an engine such as the 5.4 DOHC engine, that there is metal on metal pressure to the point that overdosing ZDDP levels will assist in lubricity and lasting effects of engine oil... The whole purpose of ZDDP and the moly that it requires in order to work properly, is to create a sacrificial surface between two metal surfaces. Aside from a wrist pin, where in the 5.4 DOHC do you have metal to metal contact that requires excessive amounts of anti-wear additives in order to resist scoring? (Excessive being the key word here).

I can't recall where I saw it, but I know a few years back (probably longer than a few because it was when I was building small block Chevy engines) I found some research published by a couple of engineers from GM that worked on the original ZR1 engine. They did extensive testing on engine oil and ZDDP levels and determined that quantities of ZDDP equal to 600-800 ppm phosphorus were more than sufficient for most high performance "roller" engines, "except for break-in of flat tappet cams or OHC followers with high spring pressures." SO, even if you doubled that number, 1000-1600 PPM should easily be enough to keep anti-wear characteristics of group IV base stock engine oil serviceable for extended lengths of time. So why on earth would you need to add ZDDP to motor oil that already contains "no less than 2200 PPM" right out of the bottle? Unless I'm misunderstanding your last post?:shrug:

ZDDP additives above and beyond what’s already in the bottle, were (and still are) used for engine break in lubricants on pushrod engines because the pressure at the cam lobe is extremely high as specially when the cam, lifters, rocker faces and valve heads are still "seating" during the break in process. Hence also, the use of copious amounts of engine assembly lube during the assembly process. This is why most cam break in procedures are what they are. However, overhead cams with roller followers have nowhere near the lobe surface pressure that flat tappet cams and lifters have and require a completely different break-in procedure.
While ZDDP is still, in my opinion, the best anti-wear additive available in readily available engine oils today; For the GT500 engine imparticular over using it is #1 not necessary #2 not cost effective and #3 counterproductive in that the ash and soot it creates is destructive over time to emission control devices and also proven to lend to increased sludge and carbon build up inside the crank case. Like most things in the world, too much of a good thing is not always a good thing. :beer:

 

[apexchain]

UnleashedBeast,
What Oil Weight do you use? Amsoil 10W-40 & 20W-50 ?


As I have followed your prior post & evidence regarding your concern of the 5W-50 Weight oils for our cars. I am a fan & avid follower.

As my oil interval changes are 2,000 Miles I am sticking with 5W-50.

The best 5W-50 Weight Oil that is available is Red-Line.

 

[apexchain]

IN BREAKING A ENGINE IN AS I HAVE CLARIFIED for the most part. 400 miles on my 2011.

UnleashedBeast already substantiated that the levels that I have achieved with the Red Line additive with 5W-50 are the same levels of Zinc/Phosphorus that are in Amsoil 10W-40 & 20W-50.

Per you post what 5W-50 Street Oil contains "no less than 2200 PPM"?

Are you done?

Rebuttal of what??? Are you just here looking for a fight or are you trying to add worthwhile content to this discussion? Re read my post and you'll clearly see that I didn't exactly disagree with anything you said. All I said was that if you use oil that NEEDS an additive, you probably aren't using the right oil. I changed my oil for the first time a few weeks ago and RedLine is what went in. I didn't add any additives because the levels of ZDDP additives in the RedLine right out of the bottle are more than enough to get the job done in this engine. If you feel the need to add it, more power to yea, but I don't and don't recommend it to anyone that asks.

ZDDP is not the holy grail of engine lubrication as you are making it seem. It’s simply one part of the equation and in engines that use over head cams or roller lifters / followers, the overwhelming amounts of ZDDP that used to be needed are no longer needed. Solid flat tappet cam profiles, as specially high lift and long duration cams, required WAY MORE anti-wear additives (ZDDP and Molly) in the oil to maintain lubricity under high pressure (between the cam lobe and the lifter). However the increasing use of roller cams and in our case, the overhead design with roller followers, vastly reduced that high pressure high friction contact between the cam lobe surface and the lifter head surface. Please explain to me where else in an engine such as the 5.4 DOHC engine, that there is metal on metal pressure to the point that overdosing ZDDP levels will assist in lubricity and lasting effects of engine oil... The whole purpose of ZDDP and the moly that it requires in order to work properly, is to create a sacrificial surface between two metal surfaces. Aside from a wrist pin, where in the 5.4 DOHC do you have metal to metal contact that requires excessive amounts of anti-wear additives in order to resist scoring? (Excessive being the key word here).

I can't recall where I saw it, but I know a few years back (probably longer than a few because it was when I was building small block Chevy engines) I found some research published by a couple of engineers from GM that worked on the original ZR1 engine. They did extensive testing on engine oil and ZDDP levels and determined that quantities of ZDDP equal to 600-800 ppm phosphorus were more than sufficient for most high performance "roller" engines, "except for break-in of flat tappet cams or OHC followers with high spring pressures." SO, even if you doubled that number, 1000-1600 PPM should easily be enough to keep anti-wear characteristics of group IV base stock engine oil serviceable for extended lengths of time. So why on earth would you need to add ZDDP to motor oil that already contains "no less than 2200 PPM" right out of the bottle? Unless I'm misunderstanding your last post?:shrug:

ZDDP additives above and beyond what’s already in the bottle, were (and still are) used for engine break in lubricants on pushrod engines because the pressure at the cam lobe is extremely high as specially when the cam, lifters, rocker faces and valve heads are still "seating" during the break in process. Hence also, the use of copious amounts of engine assembly lube during the assembly process. This is why most cam break in procedures are what they are. However, overhead cams with roller followers have nowhere near the lobe surface pressure that flat tappet cams and lifters have and require a completely different break-in procedure.
While ZDDP is still, in my opinion, the best anti-wear additive available in readily available engine oils today; For the GT500 engine imparticular over using it is #1 not necessary #2 not cost effective and #3 counterproductive in that the ash and soot it creates is destructive over time to emission control devices and also proven to lend to increased sludge and carbon build up inside the crank case. Like most things in the world, too much of a good thing is not always a good thing. :beer:

 

[PistolWhip]

Am I done with what dude? Are you seriously that much of an insecure asshole that you can't have an educated conversation without trying to turn it into some kind of immature smack down thread? Why must you end each of your posts with some sort of jab or insinuation that your opinion is the only one??

And as for the 2200 PPM comment, that was taken from YOUR post genius, that's why I said at the end of mine "unless I'm missunderstanding your last post." Your post seemed to insinuate that RedLine 5w-50 contained 2200 ppm ZDDP right off the shelf. I was simply asking why you would need to add anything to that, not debating whether it did or didn't. I don't knowfor sure what the ZDDP count is in RedLine and won't until I get my VOA back from Blackstone, but I certainly won't tell you your wrong when I don't know the facts.

 

[PistolWhip]

Red Line Racing Oil has no less than 2200ppm of zinc and phosphorus present for antiwear.

So if I add one bottle of Red Line Zinc & Phosphorus addittive to (7) Quarts of Red Line Oil I will have Phosphorus at 1307 ppm & Zinc 1577 ppm.

DEAD ON FOR A DAILY DRIVER

This post right here in case you forgot...:??:

I'm not trying to fight over this bro, I'm simply applying my experience and understanding of the facts to a thread that it fits in. I still never said yours was wrong, I just simply stated my opinion. For some reason you have a hard time with that, however you haven't once refuted any of the facts, thoughts or information I've given. And I certainly don't understand why this is becoming so personal to you, but you need to lighten up.

 

[apexchain]

Cooler than you, "DUDE". Movie line from The Big Lebowski.

That is Racing Oil. You will not give it up. Still have yet to answer my previous question from the previous post.

Clearly you are wrong. Appears you are the one getting frustrated.


WITH THE FACTS, THAT YOU SO ELEGANTLY SAID that I Lacked. YOU ARE THE ONE WITH PURE CONJUNCTURE & WRITING TEDIOUS LONG POSTINGS. Every posting I have put fact & empirical evidence. NUMBERS!!!

SO AGAIN, UnleashedBeast already substantiated that the levels that I have achieved with the Red Line additive & 5W-50 are the same levels of Zinc/Phosphorus that are in Amsoil 10W-40 & 20W-50.

Per you post what 5W-50 (((((STREET OIL))))) contains "no less than 2200 PPM"? "PLAIN SIMPLE ANSWER WILL DO"..

This post right here in case you forgot...:??:

I'm not trying to fight over this bro, I'm simply applying my experience and understanding of the facts to a thread that it fits in. I still never said yours was wrong, I just simply stated my opinion. For some reason you have a hard time with that, however you haven't once refuted any of the facts, thoughts or information I've given. And I certainly don't understand why this is becoming so personal to you, but you need to lighten up.

 

[PistolWhip]

I have no idea, I never said anything had 2200 PPM of anything, your the one that posted that.... LOL, your really having a hard time with this aren't you? I NEVER SAID YOU WERE WRONG!!! LOL you still have to argue something though don't you? Whatever man, your the man, :lol:

WOW!!! Here, I'll say it just to make your 8 posts of antagonistic fight mongering substaniated. YOU'RE WRONG! I don't know what about, but YOU'RE WRONG!... :lol:

There you go, now you can feel good about starting a fight about a topic that required nothing but a discussion about facts. You win, you're the big winner! YAAAA.... You won an argument over the internet that only you were involved in. You are surely SVTP's hero!

 

[apexchain]

No simple answer I can see. More insecure raving! You know you are wrong & you mixed up the numbers from (Red Line Racing Oil) & Red Line Street 5W50 Oil with Red Line Zinc & Phosphorus Additive for anti-wear.

No you da man. :bs:

I have no idea, I never said anything had 2200 PPM of anything, your the one that posted that.... LOL, your really having a hard time with this aren't you? I NEVER SAID YOU WERE WRONG!!! LOL you still have to argue something though don't you? Whatever man, your the man, :lol:

WOW!!! Here, I'll say it just to make your 8 posts of antagonistic fight mongering substaniated. YOU'RE WRONG! I don't know what about, but YOU'RE WRONG!... :lol:

There you go, now you can feel good about starting a fight about a topic that required nothing but a discussion about facts. You win, you're the big winner! YAAAA.... You won an argument over the internet that only you were involved in. You are surely SVTP's hero!

 

[PistolWhip]

Ok, I'm done with you.

Back on topic. Here's what I got back from BlackStone today about the factory fill in my Shelby. UnleashedBeast, what's with the fuel? Any ideas there?

 

[apexchain]

fuel dilution is usually caused by OVERLY RICH A/F CONDITIONS?

fuel dilution issues possibly also if the engine is run hard while still cold, excess fuel can get into the oil.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

I wouldn't worry about the fuel dilution, and I bet I already know why it's a little high. I think the #1 case of high fuel dilution is due to warm up idling. I tell people to avoid excessive warm up idling and limit it to less than 2 minutes. Bill, are you an excessive warm up idler? hehe!

WOW! The worst shearing we have seen yet....After 2,151 miles...cSt @ 12.07, heh...You just dropped a 30 weight oil out of your crankcase.

:uh oh:

and OMG at the silicon. That seems to be the norm on the factory fill.

 

[apexchain]

Doubt that is the issue as 02 Sensors warm up to operating temtperture within 5 seconds.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Doubt that is the issue as 02 Sensors warm up to operating temtperture within 5 seconds.

I don't think it's the O2 sensors as much as I would blame the VVT. You can tell a difference by the exhaust note the first 30 seconds of cold start idle. Also, frequent short trips (combined with excessive idle periods) and not allowing the oil to reach full temperature for a certain period of time will increase fuel dilution. The oil needs to be at operating temperature long enough to evaporate the contaminants.

UnleashedBeast,
What Oil Weight do you use? Amsoil 10W-40 & 20W-50 ?

Currently trying their 20W-50 brew, but at the 3,000 mile mark I'm highly considering a swap to their 10W-40. All of my research points directly to that being the winning combination thus far.

 

[6-Speed]

The shearing of this oil from a 50 to a 30 grade in just over 2000 miles is not a characteristic of a good oil. It doesn't surprise me though with it being a Group III base stock loaded with viscosity index improvers so it spans the range from 5 to 50 grade.

Here's an explanation of oil shearing:

Effects of Shearing

 

[PistolWhip]

I do let the car idle a bit from time to time, but it's more so that the heat is functional when I put my daughter in it. It's already in the 30's around here, so really, I probably won't get many more drives this year at all. So the RedLine OA will have to wait a while. I'm just waiting on Blackstones kit to get the VOA.

 

[stkjock]

PW - Atco is open tomorrow and next weekend! I may make the haul there tomorrow.