Demon on the Loose...
- Thread starter TFStang
- Start date
How do we know if the on board timer was working correctly? You would think if they were wise enough to turn off the track timers, they would know that the car can still time the runs? It would be very easy to manipulate the logic.
In terms of quoted performance, what would you have them do? List a crappy time under adverse conditions? Of course they'll claim a good number.
I agree, mid 9's will not be the norm. Just like mid 11's aren't the norm for Trinity GT500's. Most stock ones I've seen run high, high 11's/low12's.
If you want to claim the Demon is all hype, you have to say the same for the GT500.
In terms of quoted performance, what would you have them do? List a crappy time under adverse conditions? Of course they'll claim a good number.
I agree, mid 9's will not be the norm. Just like mid 11's aren't the norm for Trinity GT500's. Most stock ones I've seen run high, high 11's/low12's.
If you want to claim the Demon is all hype, you have to say the same for the GT500.
1. Yes shit, ****tard.
2. Never said all hype.
3. No, you don't have to say the gt500 is all hype. People went faster with it than ford claimed. Ford doesn't do this busllshit hype game and claim the car is xyz fast in pdq way.
4. You can't say the demon is this 9 second second wonder bread band wagon machine ... And then cop out when it doesn't live up to the hype and bash a proven performer that under promised and over delivered.
Facts: promised 662hp. Dyno'd 600+whp. Under promised over delivered.
Facts: was faster than the 2012 zl1 at tracks from road Atlanta to leguna, the Nurburgring to Seattle.
Facts: was going to be "premium prices product" went up 9% in price vs a 2012...
Fact: Ford promised 11's. Car went deep into the 11.30's and under in private hands. Went 11.60's in most magazine tests. Rarely did it sneak into the bottom of the 12's in reviews.
Fact: dodge promised 9.65's, goes 11's first drive by a magazine.
That's a nasty nut punch to stomach.
2. Never said all hype.
3. No, you don't have to say the gt500 is all hype. People went faster with it than ford claimed. Ford doesn't do this busllshit hype game and claim the car is xyz fast in pdq way.
4. You can't say the demon is this 9 second second wonder bread band wagon machine ... And then cop out when it doesn't live up to the hype and bash a proven performer that under promised and over delivered.
Facts: promised 662hp. Dyno'd 600+whp. Under promised over delivered.
Facts: was faster than the 2012 zl1 at tracks from road Atlanta to leguna, the Nurburgring to Seattle.
Facts: was going to be "premium prices product" went up 9% in price vs a 2012...
Fact: Ford promised 11's. Car went deep into the 11.30's and under in private hands. Went 11.60's in most magazine tests. Rarely did it sneak into the bottom of the 12's in reviews.
Fact: dodge promised 9.65's, goes 11's first drive by a magazine.
That's a nasty nut punch to stomach.
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Da fuq are you talking about toilet bowl?
Did you seriously expect the Demon to pull 9s in the middle of summer, with humid temps, marginal DA and inexperienced drivers? Holy ****ing donkey brain batman!
No shit the number Dodge gave was a best case scenario, aka hero weather / track / driver.
FACT: 13/14 500 is not faster around the track than a ZL1, numbnuts. It holds its own, most definitely, but it does not handle/brake better than the ZL1. Trinity shines in brute force/dragstrip, where it demolishes the ZL1.
Do yourself a favor and punch yourself in the stomach to help get your head out of your ass.
Did you seriously expect the Demon to pull 9s in the middle of summer, with humid temps, marginal DA and inexperienced drivers? Holy ****ing donkey brain batman!
No shit the number Dodge gave was a best case scenario, aka hero weather / track / driver.
FACT: 13/14 500 is not faster around the track than a ZL1, numbnuts. It holds its own, most definitely, but it does not handle/brake better than the ZL1. Trinity shines in brute force/dragstrip, where it demolishes the ZL1.
Do yourself a favor and punch yourself in the stomach to help get your head out of your ass.
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For a guy who gave a 2 hour dissertation on his idea about 12, 13, or 15% drivetrain loss and actually presented some decent facts----THIS IS ABOUT THE DUMBEST COMMENT ive read all week.
A tune, pulley, exhaust Trinity car is probably a 50/50 win ratio with bone stock A8 Hellcat... let alone a Demon with 133 more HP.
LMAO... get serious. The fanboyism is STRONG in you aint it.
Wow, wow, wow, Sir!
You had me until the modded Trinity vs stock A8 HC 50/50 win ratio comment.
If that scenario ever happens, the Trinity driver is either a rookie or their Trinity is a turd.
I believe HCs have an edge over Trinity but I think Trinity are not very far behind. At least on a street race. The auto on the HC does destroy on the 1/4 track.
^^ fair enough.
Had to exaggerate some for the affect.
Had to exaggerate some for the affect.
Guys? Let's all come in. Group hug time. Let's can the hate. Bromance...
Na **** that.
If dodge fished so hard for a hero run that the average times are 1.5 seconds off their hero runs... And wait, I'm the fanboy? Come on dude. That be like ford promising a 12 second 03 cobra and the average review test getting 14's.
Ford could have gone hero hunting and ran a 12.25 in a stock 03 cobra in 40° air in February at a -1000ft da track... They chose (wisely) not to. I never said dodge should bench mark a crap time, but if I headed dodges social media team, and knew we went hero time hunting when we made all the hype, I'd make for damn sure that the first tests that magazine reviewers got to partake in happened in exceptional locations like north north ny or Washington as close to sea level and in as cool of air as possible.
Don't take my word for it, go over to dodge forums. Tons of threads of teary eyed wtf posts. Dodge pulled about the 99.99% out of the car, look for a handful of 9.90's (still bad the **** ass IMO) and a plurality of 10's.
Why dodge chose to do a first drive with motortrend at a terrible venue is well beyond me. They went 20 steps back and I feel bad for them because they worked hard on a great car.
That issue aside, and by the way thanks regarding the assessment on transmission loss, here's some nuts and bolts regarding gt500's and zl1s (2012)
Fact: gt500 ran 1:37.8 at leguna in Randy phobsts hands. Zl1 ran 1:38.2
Randy said he liked the balance and handling better in the gt500. He said the brakes started to fade. Everyone knows that's as simple as dot4 fluid and pads. Watch the vid. It's on YouTube.
Chris Harris liked the gt500 more than the zl1. It's on YouTube.
The 2013 gt500 had faster stock lap at VIR than the 2012 zr1.
The 2013 gt500 had a faster stock lap than the zl1 at willow springs, big willow, Seattle, pokano, road Atlanta, etc etc etc road America. All are online, verified. Talk to people who have piloted both cars. The trinity is faster in a straightline and on 90%+ of circuits driver being equal conditions equal etc.
More facts: bolt on gt500's make 700-750whp. They trap 140-145. Quick YouTube search
More to come as I search but wanted to get a quick response in.
And you best tone down that violent hate speech or I'll get my big brother on you. He knows karate!
Na **** that.
If dodge fished so hard for a hero run that the average times are 1.5 seconds off their hero runs... And wait, I'm the fanboy? Come on dude. That be like ford promising a 12 second 03 cobra and the average review test getting 14's.
Ford could have gone hero hunting and ran a 12.25 in a stock 03 cobra in 40° air in February at a -1000ft da track... They chose (wisely) not to. I never said dodge should bench mark a crap time, but if I headed dodges social media team, and knew we went hero time hunting when we made all the hype, I'd make for damn sure that the first tests that magazine reviewers got to partake in happened in exceptional locations like north north ny or Washington as close to sea level and in as cool of air as possible.
Don't take my word for it, go over to dodge forums. Tons of threads of teary eyed wtf posts. Dodge pulled about the 99.99% out of the car, look for a handful of 9.90's (still bad the **** ass IMO) and a plurality of 10's.
Why dodge chose to do a first drive with motortrend at a terrible venue is well beyond me. They went 20 steps back and I feel bad for them because they worked hard on a great car.
That issue aside, and by the way thanks regarding the assessment on transmission loss, here's some nuts and bolts regarding gt500's and zl1s (2012)
Fact: gt500 ran 1:37.8 at leguna in Randy phobsts hands. Zl1 ran 1:38.2
Randy said he liked the balance and handling better in the gt500. He said the brakes started to fade. Everyone knows that's as simple as dot4 fluid and pads. Watch the vid. It's on YouTube.
Chris Harris liked the gt500 more than the zl1. It's on YouTube.
The 2013 gt500 had faster stock lap at VIR than the 2012 zr1.
The 2013 gt500 had a faster stock lap than the zl1 at willow springs, big willow, Seattle, pokano, road Atlanta, etc etc etc road America. All are online, verified. Talk to people who have piloted both cars. The trinity is faster in a straightline and on 90%+ of circuits driver being equal conditions equal etc.
More facts: bolt on gt500's make 700-750whp. They trap 140-145. Quick YouTube search
More to come as I search but wanted to get a quick response in.
And you best tone down that violent hate speech or I'll get my big brother on you. He knows karate!
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This is great. Manual car going [email protected] with a ho hum launch, and basic bolt ons slicks and skinnies exactly like I guesstimated and painted a picture of.
Also:
Inexperienced drivers driving an automatic car with launch control and drag race mode... Hahahhahahahahahah how hard can that really be? The conditions and track were bad, but that was dodge's choice, not mine. I just call out what happened. Like I said, I'd have picked somewhere much more conducive.
Bolt on gt500's go much faster than 133. That's the low side for them in bad conditions with average drivers. Hero bpu gt500's have gone 145+ with slicks and skinnies in mine shafts exactly as I said, search the trinity section for slips and threads.
The demon is a 133hp stronger car, but it's still 300-600#'s heavier.
Race a 600whp 03 cobra vs a stock trinity. The cobra gets it pretty bad. Like cars by 100mph from a 50 roll. 300#'s and better aerodynamic resistance favors the cobra there.
The dodge is boxier and heavier than the trinity cars. A 700whp trinity car will easily pull on a 730whp demon easily. (I'd hope the demon makes at least that on the 808 setting, 770 on the 840 I'd hope) even the 840hp setting is probably not going to hang with a driver mod bpu trinity from a roll.
Anyways, the demon is recommended off high way and 168mph limited because of the drag radials. You have to turn off the limitor which is cake but that's kinda stupid on a car that traps 135+ to have to disable a 168mph speed limiter.
The gt500 will let you kill all the innocent bystanders by going 200mph+ before you hit a crowd.
I stand by all this know it all ism as much as I stand behind my logic on transmission losses, my hate for the globalists, and my love of whiskey and America.
Gimme 11's. You're off your rocker, stock a8 hellcats aren't touching low 10's or 140+...
View attachment 95673
I've heard of an a8 hellcat on drag radials (only mod) going 10.4 at 129, which is still bad ass as ****, but my point is still valid even in that case.
What's really funny about this 10.87@127 is that it was a better track and conditions (and auto) than the motor week gt500 test where they went 11.7 at 126mph.
Obviously the time is clearly in the dodges favor, but the mph is very very close, 126 vs 127, with admittedly better track, temp (night vs day, literally), auto vs manual etc.
An auto gt500 would have probably been an 11.25-11.50 car on average, just like the average a8 hellcat is.
Inexperienced drivers driving an automatic car with launch control and drag race mode... Hahahhahahahahahah how hard can that really be? The conditions and track were bad, but that was dodge's choice, not mine. I just call out what happened. Like I said, I'd have picked somewhere much more conducive.
Bolt on gt500's go much faster than 133. That's the low side for them in bad conditions with average drivers. Hero bpu gt500's have gone 145+ with slicks and skinnies in mine shafts exactly as I said, search the trinity section for slips and threads.
The demon is a 133hp stronger car, but it's still 300-600#'s heavier.
Race a 600whp 03 cobra vs a stock trinity. The cobra gets it pretty bad. Like cars by 100mph from a 50 roll. 300#'s and better aerodynamic resistance favors the cobra there.
The dodge is boxier and heavier than the trinity cars. A 700whp trinity car will easily pull on a 730whp demon easily. (I'd hope the demon makes at least that on the 808 setting, 770 on the 840 I'd hope) even the 840hp setting is probably not going to hang with a driver mod bpu trinity from a roll.
Anyways, the demon is recommended off high way and 168mph limited because of the drag radials. You have to turn off the limitor which is cake but that's kinda stupid on a car that traps 135+ to have to disable a 168mph speed limiter.
The gt500 will let you kill all the innocent bystanders by going 200mph+ before you hit a crowd.
I stand by all this know it all ism as much as I stand behind my logic on transmission losses, my hate for the globalists, and my love of whiskey and America.
Gimme 11's. You're off your rocker, stock a8 hellcats aren't touching low 10's or 140+...
View attachment 95673
I've heard of an a8 hellcat on drag radials (only mod) going 10.4 at 129, which is still bad ass as ****, but my point is still valid even in that case.
What's really funny about this 10.87@127 is that it was a better track and conditions (and auto) than the motor week gt500 test where they went 11.7 at 126mph.
Obviously the time is clearly in the dodges favor, but the mph is very very close, 126 vs 127, with admittedly better track, temp (night vs day, literally), auto vs manual etc.
An auto gt500 would have probably been an 11.25-11.50 car on average, just like the average a8 hellcat is.
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Link to the aforementioned DT loss diatribe?
https://www.svtperformance.com/foru...nside-478hp-std-469sae.1143226/#post-15652779
Considering I spent 4 years, 8 months, 6 days on 21 hours on this magnificent thesis, I'd appreciate the completely appropriate designation of 11th commandment from God, good sir. Diatribe is at best an insult, and quite honestly a funny one, ok whatever.
Considering I spent 4 years, 8 months, 6 days on 21 hours on this magnificent thesis, I'd appreciate the completely appropriate designation of 11th commandment from God, good sir. Diatribe is at best an insult, and quite honestly a funny one, ok whatever.
Omg. Too much to digest here. I'll break it up later when I have time BUT
bolt on gt500s DO NOT trap 140.
Shit... most tvs gt500s don't trap that high.
Can it be done? Of coUrse it can but a 140mph tvs gt500 is the exception not the rule.
And 700whp gt500s do NOT trap 140 either. Takes a damn good driver and almost 800whp to make 4000 lbs go that fast!
Wish they did!
bolt on gt500s DO NOT trap 140.
Shit... most tvs gt500s don't trap that high.
Can it be done? Of coUrse it can but a 140mph tvs gt500 is the exception not the rule.
And 700whp gt500s do NOT trap 140 either. Takes a damn good driver and almost 800whp to make 4000 lbs go that fast!
Wish they did!
Right, but I posted a video of it doing just that, and you posted words of it not... Nothing personal but that doesn't help your argument.
Like I said, a bolt on gt500 will hang with a demon. Mineshaft times will be similar, high 9 to low 10 at 137-142. (140 for the demons because of the aforementioned aero bite)
Average and realistic times will be in the mid 10's at 135.
Slow and imperiled times will be in the high 10's and low 11's at 130+.
I compared a decently fast hero time for a bolt on gt500 vs a very very limit hero time for the dodge. Mph went to the manual transmission ford, timeslip went to the auto demon with a stripped interior. Both are great cars.
Like I said, a bolt on gt500 will hang with a demon. Mineshaft times will be similar, high 9 to low 10 at 137-142. (140 for the demons because of the aforementioned aero bite)
Average and realistic times will be in the mid 10's at 135.
Slow and imperiled times will be in the high 10's and low 11's at 130+.
I compared a decently fast hero time for a bolt on gt500 vs a very very limit hero time for the dodge. Mph went to the manual transmission ford, timeslip went to the auto demon with a stripped interior. Both are great cars.
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Just did a cursory read of the first post. The problem I see with what's written is that it's based on assumptions about Fords dynos.
If you want to do it the right way head to a Maha and perform some testing while coasting on the dyno post pull.
Most OEMs use Maha's or Bosch Rolling Road dynos.
Let me sumise all of this.
A trinity weighs 3900lbs. With 700-730whp, trinitys will hang with demons.
Why?
Demons weigh 4200-4400+lbs option dependent. They will likely make 730-770whp (God I'd hope at least). They have worse drag coefficient.
The auto demons will always have an advantage from a dig, even against a driver mod trinity.
I've never argued that. Optimized Auto is quicker at drag racing, that's 101.
For every demon that breaks 9's there is a bolt on trinity on slicks that will do the same at the same track with a great driver and same conditions.
For the vast majority of demons that will go mid 10's, that is comfortably bolt on bpu trinity territory.
A trinity weighs 3900lbs. With 700-730whp, trinitys will hang with demons.
Why?
Demons weigh 4200-4400+lbs option dependent. They will likely make 730-770whp (God I'd hope at least). They have worse drag coefficient.
The auto demons will always have an advantage from a dig, even against a driver mod trinity.
I've never argued that. Optimized Auto is quicker at drag racing, that's 101.
For every demon that breaks 9's there is a bolt on trinity on slicks that will do the same at the same track with a great driver and same conditions.
For the vast majority of demons that will go mid 10's, that is comfortably bolt on bpu trinity territory.
Fourcam, I completely agree that a singular scenario, such as the tr3160 in a gt350 and camaro v6, is not enough empirical data to draw such a conclusion. What cannot be discredited is the mathematical fact that an exact amount of torque (force) is needed to turn an exact amount of rotations within that transmission assuming similar fluids and freedom to spin (like what is connect to the transmission and drivetrain etc.
I've drawn that conclusion from seeing exactly the same results on many engine swap/trans swap/dyno stock/modded etc examples over the last 10 years.
I don't have easy access to proper equipment to test the notion, but as a proudly flawed human, I stand by the idea.
Look at the import scene. Those engines are far more susceptible to drivetrain loss. 10tq on a 200wtq b16 Honda is hugely noticeable, and lots of dyno testing on small engines has shown the difference between various transmission losses, etc.
Interesting note, transmission fluid can impact transmission loss decently. One thing i read about 4 years ago showed back to back a 3000gt picking up something like 7whp and 5wtq on the dyno with some then new transmission fluid that was formulated for heat resistance and decreased frictional whatever. It was new regular transmission fluid vs that stuff so not just old vs new. It may have been a 300zx, I honestly forget.
I've drawn that conclusion from seeing exactly the same results on many engine swap/trans swap/dyno stock/modded etc examples over the last 10 years.
I don't have easy access to proper equipment to test the notion, but as a proudly flawed human, I stand by the idea.
Look at the import scene. Those engines are far more susceptible to drivetrain loss. 10tq on a 200wtq b16 Honda is hugely noticeable, and lots of dyno testing on small engines has shown the difference between various transmission losses, etc.
Interesting note, transmission fluid can impact transmission loss decently. One thing i read about 4 years ago showed back to back a 3000gt picking up something like 7whp and 5wtq on the dyno with some then new transmission fluid that was formulated for heat resistance and decreased frictional whatever. It was new regular transmission fluid vs that stuff so not just old vs new. It may have been a 300zx, I honestly forget.
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