Fall 2017 GT500 supercharged voodoo, 10 speed auto and....

[Fourcam380]

HWA did make 625hp at crank from a flat plane destroked 5.0 M156

 

[hockeylover86]

5.0 with twin 62mm turbos...same one I've been posting for quite some time now (with the small exception where I was told by someone on here about a blown 5.2...I knew there were 2 motors concurrently in development, and that they were leaning towards blown 5.2 for cost cutting: but that changed when the demon was revealed apparently).

I really doubt any OEM is paying the development costs for validating two different powertrains, thats just way too expensive.

Until the actual reveal, the closest hints we can hope for is for DBK to come in and say "no that's not right"...

 

[DepWraith]

Ok, doubt all you want, just passing on info from an employee. Do you really think that SVT only works on one engine at a time? LOL.

 

[tones_RS3]

Ok, doubt all you want, just passing on info from an employee. Do you really think that SVT only works on one engine at a time? LOL.

I do believe that Roush does some testing as well, correct?

 

[tones_RS3]

Supposed to make announcement in June.

Awesome.
So, in a couple of more weeks and we should know what the new GT500 is all about! Can't wait!

 

[hockeylover86]

Ok, doubt all you want, just passing on info from an employee. Do you really think that SVT only works on one engine at a time? LOL.

I think that validation costs are astronomical, and once an OEM starts a program they go forward developing a powertrain (for a given application) with one common target/goal in mind. Validating two engines knowing one would never see the light of day just seems unlikely.

 

[ON D BIT]

I think that validation costs are astronomical, and once an OEM starts a program they go forward developing a powertrain (for a given application) with one common target/goal in mind. Validating two engines knowing one would never see the light of day just seems unlikely.

They do it all the time. Most manufactures do. Aside from the power and size they see how each motor reacts to the chassis/suspension and how it works in the car. They were developing a 5.4 n/a for the 08 bullitt and had a number of test cars with it.
You are correct they rarely, if ever, get through the entire length of durability and EPA testing of both motors. Once they choose the motor they like they continue with validation.

However the information the learned and the engineering gathered by the motors that don't make it will go into their next project. The R and D will be used down the line.

 

[thePill]

5.0 with twin 62mm turbos...same one I've been posting for quite some time now (with the small exception where I was told by someone on here about a blown 5.2...I knew there were 2 motors concurrently in development, and that they were leaning towards blown 5.2 for cost cutting: but that changed when the demon was revealed apparently).

The Demon changed a lot.

It's down to a parallel Twin Turbo like the FGT uses or a Hot V BiTurbo like the BMW uses.

I believe the wait was partially for Port Direct Injection and different Ecoboost configurations. A parallel Twin could use a BiTurbo intake like the Cobra Jet or true twins like the FGT.

A Hot V with a hood mounted cold air intake would be best. Retrofitting the backwards head design to the Powerstroke lineup for all these new trucks is kept in mind I'm sure.

A supercharged GT500 died after MY17. I believe that was the only shot of getting a SC GT500.

 

[Fourcam380]

The Demon changed a lot.

It's down to a parallel Twin Turbo like the FGT uses or a Hot V BiTurbo like the BMW uses.

I believe the wait was partially for Port Direct Injection and different Ecoboost configurations. A parallel Twin could use a BiTurbo intake like the Cobra Jet or true twins like the FGT.

A Hot V with a hood mounted cold air intake would be best. Retrofitting the backwards head design to the Powerstroke lineup for all these new trucks is kept in mind I'm sure.

A supercharged GT500 died after MY17. I believe that was the only shot of getting a SC GT500.

Why do you say a hot vee is best?

 

[thePill]

Why do you say a hot vee is best?

At first, packaging in the 2015-2017's fascia. I don't think there is enough room for a Cobra Jet type set up.

Although, the changes in 2018 fascia could've been made to accommodate two lower mounted turbos.

Another concern would be cooling. A Hot V, while setting in a hot area, could get access to cool air via a ram air type induction. The FGT uses a Parallel Twin BUT, uses a mid-engine configuration and gets cool air from the slip stream.

The 2015-'17 was designed with extra coolers in mind but, how much do they get in the way of a parallel Twin setup? I think Hot V is the way to go... unless it's so hot it's unbearable. Something Port Direct Injection could help with, high pressure fuel helps cool the cylinders... and now you see why PDI was a requirement

Regardless, 800+ isn't happening with a single Twin Scroll Turbo or a 2900 Supercharger. Not at 5-6 liters it's not

 

[DepWraith]

It will be a 5.0 with twin 62mm...the delay was hard starting and oil consumption, along with keeping costs down.

 

[Clemson]

She better be a looker.....

 

[DBK]

Until the actual reveal, the closest hints we can hope for is for DBK to come in and say "no that's not right"...

Lots of that here. Much of it being stated with absolutely certainty, which is gonna be funny when a couple dudes in here have to walk back all this wrong shit that never had any basis in reality whatsoever...

 

[Fourcam380]

At first, packaging in the 2015-2017's fascia. I don't think there is enough room for a Cobra Jet type set up.

Although, the changes in 2018 fascia could've been made to accommodate two lower mounted turbos.

Another concern would be cooling. A Hot V, while setting in a hot area, could get access to cool air via a ram air type induction. The FGT uses a Parallel Twin BUT, uses a mid-engine configuration and gets cool air from the slip stream.

The 2015-'17 was designed with extra coolers in mind but, how much do they get in the way of a parallel Twin setup? I think Hot V is the way to go... unless it's so hot it's unbearable. Something Port Direct Injection could help with, high pressure fuel helps cool the cylinders... and now you see why PDI was a requirement

Regardless, 800+ isn't happening with a single Twin Scroll Turbo or a 2900 Supercharger. Not at 5-6 liters it's not

Fuel helps cool the cylinders. Doesn't matter if it's DI or PFI. All existing hot vee TT V8s just use DI. Nothing we've seen regarding the new GT500 requires both PFI and DI other than aiding in lowering emissions.

Why can't you use a single scroll turbo to make 800hp? It's been done for decades on pump gas. The size of the head unit of the turbo or supercharger dictates potential HP not engine displacement.

I also don't agree that a conventional TT setup can't be fed cool air or that it's more difficult to get ambient air to the engine. Take it fwiw.

 

[thePill]

Fuel helps cool the cylinders. Doesn't matter if it's DI or PFI. All existing hot vee TT V8s just use DI. Nothing we've seen regarding the new GT500 requires both PFI and DI other than aiding in lowering emissions.

Why can't you use a single scroll turbo to make 800hp? It's been done for decades on pump gas. The size of the head unit of the turbo or supercharger dictates potential HP not engine displacement.

I also don't agree that a conventional TT setup can't be fed cool air or that it's more difficult to get ambient air to the engine. Take it fwiw.

In 2018, the base Mustang GT will come with Port Direct Injection standard. I always assumed it would show up on the GT350/500 first and trickle down.

Also, a Single Twin Scroll Ecoboost cannot create 800+hp from a 5 to 6 liter DOHC V8 and pass emissions. A 5 liter engine would need to make over 150hp per liter to produce 750hp. The FGT's TT3.5 is about as efficient as Ford gets and it has an advantage in this measurement just by being s V6 (less friction).

Since PDI is now standard and projections are now "over 800hp", there are few ways to get that kinda power from the Coyote. You would need almost need dedicated boost on each bank at this point.

 

[Fourcam380]

In 2018, the base Mustang GT will come with Port Direct Injection standard. I always assumed it would show up on the GT350/500 first and trickle down.

Also, a Single Twin Scroll Ecoboost cannot create 800+hp from a 5 to 6 liter DOHC V8 and pass emissions. A 5 liter engine would need to make over 150hp per liter to produce 750hp. The FGT's TT3.5 is about as efficient as Ford gets and it has an advantage in this measurement just by being s V6 (less friction).

Since PDI is now standard and projections are now "over 800hp", there are few ways to get that kinda power from the Coyote. You would need almost need dedicated boost on each bank at this point.

I never said I didn't think it wouldn't be nice if the new gt500 came with both PFI and DI. Just that it's not needed to make power.

So a 750HP 5.0l coyote can't pass emissions with a solo single scroll snail? There's no reason why that isn't possible especially since you haven't limited turbo size. Compromised drivability would have been a valid argument.

150HP/L isn't as big of a statement as it used to be in the FI world. Tune only euro 4.0l hot vee V8s have no problem making 650-700whp with software remapping only--800HP+ at crank from less displacement and limited by the small turbos that can fit between the banks of the block. These cars still pass emissions with no modified hardware.

How are you comparing two different engines with different sized turbos? Boost is a measurement that's only relevant to the motor it's measured on. That shitty v6 still makes ~650hp and passes emissions with 30psi from the factory. No reason a 5.0l can't make just 100hp more with the right snails and a conventional layout.

 

[thePill]

I never said I didn't think it wouldn't be nice if the new gt500 came with both PFI and DI. Just that it's not needed to make power.

So a 750HP 5.0l coyote can't pass emissions with a solo single scroll snail? There's no reason why that isn't possible especially since you haven't limited turbo size. Compromised drivability would have been a valid argument.

150HP/L isn't as big of a statement as it used to be in the FI world. Tune only euro 4.0l hot vee V8s have no problem making 650-700whp with software remapping only--800HP+ at crank from less displacement and limited by the small turbos that can fit between the banks of the block. These cars still pass emissions with no modified hardware.

How are you comparing two different engines with different sized turbos? Boost is a measurement that's only relevant to the motor it's measured on. That shitty v6 still makes ~650hp and passes emissions with 30psi from the factory. No reason a 5.0l can't make just 100hp more with the right snails and a conventional layout.

For the GT500 application AND if 800+HP is the target, yes, Port Direct would be far better. The statement was made more so because the GT gets PDI standard. This helps reduce the cost overall.

As for 150hp per liter... not so fast.

The LT4 is around 110hp per liter, the Demon at 808 is 130hp per liter. The FGT, the absolute shining example, is around 170hp.

Where does the Coyote fall? From 5.0 liters to 5.5, I'd say FI potential is between 110-130hp per liter.

 

[Fourcam380]

For the GT500 application AND if 800+HP is the target, yes, Port Direct would be far better. The statement was made more so because the GT gets PDI standard. This helps reduce the cost overall.

As for 150hp per liter... not so fast.

The LT4 is around 110hp per liter, the Demon at 808 is 130hp per liter. The FGT, the absolute shining example, is around 170hp.

Where does the Coyote fall? From 5.0 liters to 5.5, I'd say FI potential is between 110-130hp per liter.

110-130hp/l = 550-650hp from 5.0l. That would be sad. Even a factory tuned AJ series III TVS 2300 SC v8 makes 592hp. I'll take conservative math over ricer math any day, but this is a good bit too conservative.

Again small turbo hot vee euro 4.0ls are kicking out 800hp and passing emissions. That's 200hp/l from platforms designed to make that power (no hardware changes) on pump gas today.

 

[thePill]

110-130hp/l = 550-650hp from 5.0l. That would be sad. Even a factory tuned AJ series III TVS 2300 SC v8 makes 592hp. I'll take conservative math over ricer math any day, but this is a good bit too conservative.

Again small turbo hot vee euro 4.0ls are kicking out 800hp and passing emissions. That's 200hp/l from platforms designed to make that power (no hardware changes) on pump gas today.

Hot V's like the AMG and BMW use two turbos. You can call it a Twin I suppose but it is not a parallel system. This is why a single turbo or supercharger won't work.

As I have argued endlessly before, the only way to get 800+hp from a Coyote OEM is from two turbos. I am sure there are Hot V Sequential Turbos, similar to a Powerstroke truck engine but, we need dedicated Turbos to break 800hp with 5-5.5 liters.

650hp from a 5 liter OEM engine isn't sad. That is pretty efficient from the factory at 130hp per liter. So, we will likely see a larger displacement AND, PDI is a big help.

 

[Fourcam380]

Hot V's like the AMG and BMW use two turbos. You can call it a Twin I suppose but it is not a parallel system. This is why a single turbo or supercharger won't work.

As I have argued endlessly before, the only way to get 800+hp from a Coyote OEM is from two turbos. I am sure there are Hot V Sequential Turbos, similar to a Powerstroke truck engine but, we need dedicated Turbos to break 800hp with 5-5.5 liters.

Making power has nothing to do with how many power adders are used, nor how they are driven. Anyone can make a 800hp single turbo 5.0l coyote that will pass emissions though it will have non optimal drivability.

Drivability is the only reason to use twins vs a larger single turbo but again does nothing for peak power all else equal.