GT350R wins vs ZL1 in M/T & KBB h2h's.

[GT Premi]

...and it came to market 2 years after the GT350.

If it takes a supercharger, 2 years of R&D AND you still need an additional model to ensure victory, it was a HUGE let down.

Look at the pile of insecurities on C6.com. At .039, that race could have went to the GT350.

What if the GT350 gets PDI? Oh no, Camaro...

Anybody remember these GT500 prototypes?


Check out the dive planes. I wonder if Chevy started ZL1 (1LE) development years ago in anticipation of possibly having to battle that car. The GT350 came out of nowhere when Ford started dropping teasers. Nobody could even figure out what it was initially. That's probably one of the reasons there's no Z/28 this time around. GM was aiming for a vaporware GT500, and based on current ZL1/ZL1 1LE track performance and how the GT350R is all over it, they just may have missed the target by a wide margin. Who knows?

 

[thePill]

Please provide any sort of proof that what you are saying above is true. Not your claimed insider info B.S, which we all know you don't have. Don't pull a CNN on us.

Healthy debate is a good thing. Don't muddy it up with wild personal speculation.

The very people that reported the Z28 Cancelation and ZL1/1LE Program merger to me last August have kept me up to speed on the sales and production.

I have specifics on another forum.

The '19-'20 refresh is it.

With the failure of both ATS/CTS and the Alpha, the Camaro, ATS, and CTS are on the chopping block. ATS/CTS goes first, Camaro won't continue for a 7th gen

They lost 830 in Jan and another 600 in May. Shift 3 should be dissolved .

Between the ATS/CTS/Camaro, Lansing doesn't make over 10,000 cars a month any more. Not enough to support a 2nd Shift. There are still 1300 workers there, making up 2 shifts. I would rather nobody lose their job and drop the Camaro subject altogether.

Anybody remember these GT500 prototypes?


Check out the dive planes. I wonder if Chevy started ZL1 (1LE) development years ago in anticipation of possibly having to battle that car. The GT350 came out of nowhere when Ford started dropping teasers. Nobody could even figure out what it was initially. That's probably one of the reasons there's no Z/28 this time around. GM was aiming for a vaporware GT500, and based on current ZL1/ZL1 1LE track performance and how the GT350R is all over it, they just may have missed the target by a wide margin. Who knows?

That is Big Red. I was on location, June 2011 for those runs. That car was supercharged. I came home Thursday night and reported what the local clubs had been clocking them at.

Travis released the 7:39 Ring run nearly 2.5 years after the report.

 

[gimmie11s]

^^ lol

This guy is too much.

 

[GTSpartan]

The very people that reported the Z28 Cancelation and ZL1/1LE Program merger to me last August have kept me up to speed on the sales and production.

I have specifics on another forum.

The '19-'20 refresh is it.

With the failure of both ATS/CTS and the Alpha, the Camaro, ATS, and CTS are on the chopping block. ATS/CTS goes first, Camaro won't continue for a 7th gen

Gotta be honest with you, that's pretty thin. There is not much there to back up your claim. Some anonymous, unnamed sources are feeding you insider info. Sounds a lot like the fake news these days.

You are right, the ATS and CTS are dead. They are being replaced by the CT4 & CT5, as Caddy moves to a new naming convention. Sedans are out right now, in favor of the CUV. Don't expect huge numbers.


Back to the thread...

If we don't all acknowledge and recognize that each of these cars are incredible machines in their own way, we aren't true enthusiasts. One is an exceptionally precise track focused weapon, and the other, a fantastically well-rounded performer. 10 years ago, this wasn't even a remote thought.

Can't hardly go wrong with either.

 

[thePill]

Gotta be honest with you, there is not much there to back up your claim. Some anonymous, unnamed sources are feeding you insider info. Sounds like fake news.

You are right, the ATS and CTS are dead. They are being replaced by the CT4 & CT5, as Caddy moves to a new naming convention. Sedans are out right now, in favor of the CUV. Don't expect huge numbers.

Got to be honest, I didn't provide sources last August either. I just made the statement and it become official a few months ago.

What happens to Camaro MSRP once the platforms donor car gets axed? A significant increase in MSRP on an already failing product.

I wish the workers at Lansing the best. Can't maintain 2 shifts on less than 9000 cars a month while selling even less.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Pill, wasn't talking to you at all bud, that reply was for roboface.

11's and roboface, the libtard Hillary voters are you guys. Backing government motors so strongly shows your communist electric volt appreciating colors. I see the red smocks, you guys want everyone to drive a volt and bail out the company when it can't sustain itself.

Fear the Reds guys, they've infiltrated Svtp!

But in all seriousness, the gt350r is still better.

 

[ZYBORG]

Lol... this guy!

 

[GTSpartan]

What happens to Camaro MSRP once the platforms donor car gets axed? A significant increase in MSRP on an already failing product.

I wish the workers at Lansing the best. Can't maintain 2 shifts on less than 9000 cars a month while selling even less.

Care to share the P&L and CF statements for the program or plant? Depreciation & amortization schedules? Kind of important info to have when making these sort of claims.



Given Ford's move to add port FI to some of their engines, I wonder if/when it'll happen to the GT350? Should give it a decent boost with a minimal weight penalty.

 

[thePill]

Care to share the P&L and CF statements for the program or plant? Depreciation & amortization schedules? Kind of important info to have when making these sort of claims.



Given Ford's move to add port FI to some of their engines, I wonder if/when it'll happen to the GT350? Should give it a decent boost with a minimal weight penalty.

GM will never publish profit losses and even if I did have those numbers, with 1300 workers still employed, I doubt I would share it at all.

Unfortunately, in order to see the situation, we need to read between the lines. The Camaro/ATS/CTS share tooling and production cost, more than I initially realized. On the other end, sales of all 3 were only a fraction of what was expected. Even the recent update to Cadillac's Plant investments in March shows they originally intended for the ATS/CTS to stay in production until late 2020.

I've never heard or seen a CT5 but appearently that is the V and Camaro's replacement in 2021.

Without the ATS and CTS in production for '18-'20, the cost to produce a Camaro would skyrocket.

About 1 and 1/2 shifts remain at Lansing, more people than it requires to feed demand. It has come to a point where we should consider the workers welfare vs. the Camaro's quality.

I would rather not discuss the Camaro until it is clearly recovered. The 6th Gen Camaro made huge compromises during development, some in which affects sales performance. Proof is in the H2H, it is clear which platform is more efficient.

The UAW Contract signed in November 2015 agreed to continue to 5.2 engine with upgrades. I assumed PDI would have went to the 350/500 first then trickled down but that is not the case. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 289 FPC someday, it may help the vibration.

I'm not positive but I thought Ford mentioned the Voodoo or learning lessons from the Voodoo when talking about the increased output. I am beginning to wonder if the GT and 350 may share an intake and PDI system.

Also, can you find out if a traditional roots-type supercharger is compatible with the port injectors on Ford's new PDI setup? I have asked and asked but I cannot find anything of substance. I am assuming both P and D injectors are resting in the V. I cannot find any more information on any of these systems.

 

[ON D BIT]

They lost 830 in Jan and another 600 in May. Shift 3 should be dissolved .

Is that workers or millions of dollars at the plant?

GM will never publish profit losses and even if I did have those numbers, with 1300 workers still employed, I doubt I would share it at all.

You're calling your own information crap, by saying you don't have the information you posted above. Nice touch.

 

[thePill]

Is that workers or millions of dollars at the plant?



You're calling your own information crap, by saying you don't have the information you posted above. Nice touch.

830 workers in Jan, 600 in May. I hope that's all. There were 2700 at one time.


Any thing posted on any forum comes from forum members that message me via FB. People don't bullshit as much on a legitimate FB page. I have never ask for screen names but on a few occasions, I knew who it was.

With the exception of Nurburgring, that is how I collect info. I have been doing it like this since March 8th 2010.

That is the main reason why I post info on threads containing people "in the know". There are some on here. That is why I disregard the people here pretending. Stuff like the GT>GT350>GT500 lineup, GT350 continues to 2020, PDI, the refresh, 808... I brought it directly to SVT P first.

But the "insiders" here laughed at the stupidity of such suggestions. So now I really question their validity but not directly. I'd rather discuss the vehicle and get to the facts, not run some poor regular down on the forums.

808 was a big number and I was as specific as possible. That's all you guys said so that's all I ever wrote. The GT350 will continue to 2020, maybe 2021 if the S650 isn't ready. I reported that Port Direct Injection was coming, here, specifically, maybe a year ago. Perhaps any plans for a Supercharged V8 were scrapped for Voodoo improvements.

I would rather not talk about the Camaro.

 

[Tob]

I was up at Mosport yesterday and in the pits with Dean Martin's crew. Among other interesting things there, GM brought a ZL1 1LE. Most there gave it little attention. In my view it looks killer.

 

[thePill]

Happy Birthday Dean!

 

[5 DOT 0]

That is the main reason why I post info on threads containing people "in the know". There are some on here. That is why I disregard the people here pretending. Stuff like the GT>GT350>GT500 lineup, GT350 continues to 2020, PDI, the refresh, 808... I brought it directly to SVT P first.

But the "insiders" here laughed at the stupidity of such suggestions. So now I really question their validity but not directly. I'd rather discuss the vehicle and get to the facts, not run some poor regular down on the forums.

808 was a big number and I was as specific as possible. That's all you guys said so that's all I ever wrote. The GT350 will continue to 2020, maybe 2021 if the S650 isn't ready. I reported that Port Direct Injection was coming, here, specifically, maybe a year ago. Perhaps any plans for a Supercharged V8 were scrapped for Voodoo improvements.

I hope you're right about DI on the voodoo but I have my doubts.

The ZL1 1LE is one bad ass car and I give it it's due. A 7:16 ring time is no joke. But do track guys really care? Seeing a Camaro on track here in NorCal is a pretty rare event. The GM guys drive Corvettes as they should. The C6 Z06 and the C7 Z51 are very capable cars so why bother with a Camaro?

What really matters to me on the chart above is the Porsche GT3. They are a dime a dozen here and those are the cars I want to pass on track. Note that Porsche didn't offer a manual trans in the 991.1 GT3 because the PDK was over a second a lap faster than the manual. The GT3's usually get off the corners quicker but I'm usually out braking them and gaining on them to mid corner in my GT350 track pack running SC2's. The cars are virtually dead even from 60-120 mph.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

^keep in mind too that that is a poor time for the gt350r at that track because conditions were crappy on the track itself.

Same day/driver, the gt350r is a gt3rs fighter. A gt350 will hang with a gt3 drivers being similar, but it's the gt3's race to lose to be honest.

 

[thePill]

Care to share the P&L and CF statements for the program or plant? Depreciation & amortization schedules? Kind of important info to have when making these sort of claims.

The ATS/CTS replacement (CT5) articles went live yesterday.

I am sure you are up to speed to the UAW concerns as well? While the Union is indeed speaking with the Big 2.5 about car production.

Fact is, no car, Sedan, Coupe, 2/4 door or actually Hatch is safe at GM right now. You will notice in every article, the Camaro topic is baron. Not even mentioned to be safe right? It's actually pretty bad overall.

It appears the ATS/CTS are in immediate danger. The ATS/CTS may not last the rest of the year let alone the end of '18. In order to appease the UAW, GM has agreed to continue Alpha Camaro production until September 2021. Only issue is, there are no other Alpha cars to share tooling or production cost. How much that impacts the Camaro's MSRP is still unknown however, pouring days of research into the topic, I was surprised to find it is more than I thought.

Certain complecated variables determine the overall impact on the Camaro. One being the ATS/CTS lifespan. Originally intended to be as long as the Camaro, roughly 7-8 years. The CT5 wasn't due until 2022.

Another factor was annual sales. Each of the 3 Alpha cars only produced roughly 55-70% of expected sales. On top of that, due to literally zero demand, there were MSRP increases scheduled for 2017 and every year after. An increase happened 6 months after release but a price drop was announced afterwards. A few regional giveaways helped move cars when stock overflowed.

Regardless, if the ATS/CTS stop, the Camaro MSRP will need to increase some 10-20%. Not only that, Lansing is having trouble sustaining a single shift on its current output. Under 60,000 cars a year a a plant cost more to run. If the CT5 is brought in, its family of SUV's and crossovers will need to share the line.

The Camaro might make 60,000 cars this year. But sales are expected to decrease another 30% in the next 12 months. The refresh is maybe 13-14 months away.

More detailed articles about specific vehicles will be released later, I am sure. Because people jobs are still at stake, it is better off to wait for GM's official word. You can even see some infighting and miscommunication going on between the GM spokesman and the people at Caddy.

Some people have their hearts invested but shareholders don't want to invest This will be a long drawn out story and it will get ugly. There are tears being shed I am almost positive.

I do have the intended wheelbase for said CT5, it will be a 112.5 inch wheelbase. Same as the 5th Gen. Google is your friend, the articles are out there. Some major hurdles for the Camaro brand for sure.

 

[ON D BIT]

Basically you have no evidence and no knowledge of what is happening inside the plants or within negotiations let alone goals for either side.

All you know is base and generall gossip that has been out a while and then you make crazy generalizations based on that. All told you are just another Shultz!

 

[GTSpartan]

The ATS/CTS replacement (CT5) articles went live yesterday.

I am sure you are up to speed to the UAW concerns as well? While the Union is indeed speaking with the Big 2.5 about car production.

Fact is, no car, Sedan, Coupe, 2/4 door or actually Hatch is safe at GM right now. You will notice in every article, the Camaro topic is baron. Not even mentioned to be safe right? It's actually pretty bad overall.

It appears the ATS/CTS are in immediate danger. The ATS/CTS may not last the rest of the year let alone the end of '18. In order to appease the UAW, GM has agreed to continue Alpha Camaro production until September 2021. Only issue is, there are no other Alpha cars to share tooling or production cost. How much that impacts the Camaro's MSRP is still unknown however, pouring days of research into the topic, I was surprised to find it is more than I thought.

Certain complecated variables determine the overall impact on the Camaro. One being the ATS/CTS lifespan. Originally intended to be as long as the Camaro, roughly 7-8 years. The CT5 wasn't due until 2022.

Another factor was annual sales. Each of the 3 Alpha cars only produced roughly 55-70% of expected sales. On top of that, due to literally zero demand, there were MSRP increases scheduled for 2017 and every year after. An increase happened 6 months after release but a price drop was announced afterwards. A few regional giveaways helped move cars when stock overflowed.

Regardless, if the ATS/CTS stop, the Camaro MSRP will need to increase some 10-20%. Not only that, Lansing is having trouble sustaining a single shift on its current output. Under 60,000 cars a year a a plant cost more to run. If the CT5 is brought in, its family of SUV's and crossovers will need to share the line.

The Camaro might make 60,000 cars this year. But sales are expected to decrease another 30% in the next 12 months. The refresh is maybe 13-14 months away.

More detailed articles about specific vehicles will be released later, I am sure. Because people jobs are still at stake, it is better off to wait for GM's official word. You can even see some infighting and miscommunication going on between the GM spokesman and the people at Caddy.

Some people have their hearts invested but shareholders don't want to invest This will be a long drawn out story and it will get ugly. There are tears being shed I am almost positive.

I do have the intended wheelbase for said CT5, it will be a 112.5 inch wheelbase. Same as the 5th Gen. Google is your friend, the articles are out there. Some major hurdles for the Camaro brand for sure.

Jesus man, you just make stuff up as you go don't ya? Basically every number you present as fact is made up by you.

Yes, car demand is weak across all OEM's. GM ain't the only one. There's been a fundamental shift to CUV's. Doesn't take an "insider" to figure that out.

 

[GT Premi]

The ATS/CTS replacement (CT5) articles went live yesterday.

I am sure you are up to speed to the UAW concerns as well? While the Union is indeed speaking with the Big 2.5 about car production.

Fact is, no car, Sedan, Coupe, 2/4 door or actually Hatch is safe at GM right now. You will notice in every article, the Camaro topic is baron. Not even mentioned to be safe right? It's actually pretty bad overall.

It appears the ATS/CTS are in immediate danger. The ATS/CTS may not last the rest of the year let alone the end of '18. In order to appease the UAW, GM has agreed to continue Alpha Camaro production until September 2021. Only issue is, there are no other Alpha cars to share tooling or production cost. How much that impacts the Camaro's MSRP is still unknown however, pouring days of research into the topic, I was surprised to find it is more than I thought.

Certain complecated variables determine the overall impact on the Camaro. One being the ATS/CTS lifespan. Originally intended to be as long as the Camaro, roughly 7-8 years. The CT5 wasn't due until 2022.

Another factor was annual sales. Each of the 3 Alpha cars only produced roughly 55-70% of expected sales. On top of that, due to literally zero demand, there were MSRP increases scheduled for 2017 and every year after. An increase happened 6 months after release but a price drop was announced afterwards. A few regional giveaways helped move cars when stock overflowed.

Regardless, if the ATS/CTS stop, the Camaro MSRP will need to increase some 10-20%. Not only that, Lansing is having trouble sustaining a single shift on its current output. Under 60,000 cars a year a a plant cost more to run. If the CT5 is brought in, its family of SUV's and crossovers will need to share the line.

The Camaro might make 60,000 cars this year. But sales are expected to decrease another 30% in the next 12 months. The refresh is maybe 13-14 months away.

More detailed articles about specific vehicles will be released later, I am sure. Because people jobs are still at stake, it is better off to wait for GM's official word. You can even see some infighting and miscommunication going on between the GM spokesman and the people at Caddy.

Some people have their hearts invested but shareholders don't want to invest This will be a long drawn out story and it will get ugly. There are tears being shed I am almost positive.

I do have the intended wheelbase for said CT5, it will be a 112.5 inch wheelbase. Same as the 5th Gen. Google is your friend, the articles are out there. Some major hurdles for the Camaro brand for sure.

I would be very disappointed to see the ATS, CTS, and Camaro end. The Camaro is a niche vehicle in a niche market. Just because it "only" sells +/-60K units in a year does not make it a flop or failure. Not making sales projections does not automatically mean it's not profitable. The Mustang doesn't sell by the hundreds of thousands per year, either, and it's not supposed to. Enthusiasm for the Camaro seems to be at an all-time high, and I see no shortage of 5th and 6th gens on the road. I think your outlook on the situation is a lot more grim than it really is.

 

[AustinSN]

Camaro isn't going anywhere.