Is the C&R a dual or triple pass HE?
IAT2 ranges 40-50* above ambient with HE/fans
- Thread starter 99cobraUgotbit
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If you live in a really hot climate like I do, you might want to invest into a killer chiller. Keeps my IAT2 temps about 10-15* above ambient when cruising and below ambient for short time into boost. Only downside is your cabin cooling performance will suffer. Guess you can't have it all.
Also you could always spray nitrous to improve cooling and performance. Or a water meth kit could drop temps maybe 5-10* under WOT.
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Im seriously considering a 25-50 nitrous kit to drop my IAT2s. Its the hot season now in Phoenix and N2O seems to be the only thing that will cool it down for a full power run. Sure the 25 shot of nitrous will make power too, but the dense air charge it brings when it sprays is very nice. Plus you gotta purge before a run anyway. Why not run the purge line to discharge in front of the heat exchanger? Should help chill the HE fluid nicely. Just a thought
That doesn't really sound out of the ordinary. Run a couple data logs at WOT and see what your IAT2 values are while in boost. If they're staying around 110-120, that would be pretty normal in that type of heat.
The big thing I've noticed with the fanned HEs is that they bring your IAT2s down much faster after you've been driving the car around, parked it and it's become heat soaked. They also help considerably when you're doing a lot of stop light to stop light driving in town, everything stays much cooler. Once you're cruising, though, temps don't seem to be significantly lower than they were with the OEM stuff. They're better, but not by much.
As others have said, you can run a small shot of NO2 or a water/meth kit for additional cooling. The Killer Chiller also seems to work well. An ice tank in the trunk is also an option, but that's not really something you'd want to deal with for daily driving, it's more of a track thing.
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I don't know if that's entirely true. I like to check my temps after a drive every now and then just to see how my cooling system is performing. I have a 170* t-stat. I don't have anything to take any internal measurements, so I use a laser pointer and spot check different places on the engine. I left the engine running after a drive one time and checked the temps of the outside of the heads and the valley. Each one was plumb dead on 170*. I would imagine after a while the fluid and the metal reach equilibrium. So, whether you're reading the fluid or the metal it cools, the temps should read the same.
Killer Chiller! The only times I ever experience heat soak is the first few minutes after it's been parked after being driven for a while and if I'm driving around without the A/C compressor running, which is almost never. The negative effect on cabin cooling is minimal. Just bump the temp down 1 or 2 more degrees, and you'll be fine.
My caveat about the Killer Chiller is two fold:
AC systems generate liquid water that rolls off the evaporator. Unless youre in a dry climate, this is an issue at the track. Leaving water on the track can at best cause guys to spin their wheels that run after you. At worse, it can cause a wreck. Even in a dry climate you can have water come off your evap.
There is apparently a drag race version that doesn't let the water drip. So youll have to empty out a reservoir for that it sounds like.
The second is the company itself. A few months ago, there was a thread about a KC standalone unit that, for lack of a better description, failed miserably. Svtp member got the short end of the stick and got excuse after excuse about where his agreed upon refund was. A shit show to say the least, and that was dealing with the owner if killer chiller.... I personally will never do business with a company that has business ethics like that. Others are certainly free to do as they please.
There are many that love the KC, and many that will look at better solutions from more reputable companies. At least now youve heard the other side.
AC systems generate liquid water that rolls off the evaporator. Unless youre in a dry climate, this is an issue at the track. Leaving water on the track can at best cause guys to spin their wheels that run after you. At worse, it can cause a wreck. Even in a dry climate you can have water come off your evap.
There is apparently a drag race version that doesn't let the water drip. So youll have to empty out a reservoir for that it sounds like.
The second is the company itself. A few months ago, there was a thread about a KC standalone unit that, for lack of a better description, failed miserably. Svtp member got the short end of the stick and got excuse after excuse about where his agreed upon refund was. A shit show to say the least, and that was dealing with the owner if killer chiller.... I personally will never do business with a company that has business ethics like that. Others are certainly free to do as they please.
There are many that love the KC, and many that will look at better solutions from more reputable companies. At least now youve heard the other side.
@lexustech48 - the only thing more polarizing than "is a KC good" around here is "what oil should you run"
My caveat about the Killer Chiller is two fold:
AC systems generate liquid water that rolls off the evaporator. Unless youre in a dry climate, this is an issue at the track. Leaving water on the track can at best cause guys to spin their wheels that run after you. At worse, it can cause a wreck. Even in a dry climate you can have water come off your evap.
There is apparently a drag race version that doesn't let the water drip. So youll have to empty out a reservoir for that it sounds like.
The second is the company itself. A few months ago, there was a thread about a KC standalone unit that, for lack of a better description, failed miserably. Svtp member got the short end of the stick and got excuse after excuse about where his agreed upon refund was. A shit show to say the least, and that was dealing with the owner if killer chiller.... I personally will never do business with a company that has business ethics like that. Others are certainly free to do as they please.
There are many that love the KC, and many that will look at better solutions from more reputable companies. At least now youve heard the other side.
I don't believe OP is concerned with drag racing, so that is a moot point. Your other issue is concerning an untested prototype system that the buyer knowingly bought. There haven't been any issues with the other KC systems that have been on the market for years.
I'll need to use my laser temp probe to see what I can read. I agree in theory, but lets look a little deeper. I've got a 170* thermostat too and my fans are set to keep the coolant at something just under 180* in the summer time, and it fluctuates around that number. But anytime I data log, I see my cylinder head temperatures range between 12* and 18* above that. Granted, I've not checked them to see how hot they get on the outside, but I doubt they're 20* cooler on the exterior. Hitting the cam covers and the timing cover will not yield accurate temperature readings as there are considerable air voids behind both of them.
As you know the manifold is attached to the cylinder head, not the engine block. I also know you can't hit the wall of the intake manifold with the laser pointer. Perhaps the front of the intake, but that's where all the cooling components for the intercooler are routed. You might be able to hit the top, but that's likely to be a cooler spot because of the high volume of air flow through the humps that route air into the intake port. But let face it, at 125* IAT2, most tuners start pulling timing. The factory tune starts as low as 100*. By 150* IAT2, the OEM tune would have pulled 6* of timing at high load. It's considerably lower at low loads. I think most tuners would pull less than half of that amount of timing retard. This is for my 2012. I have SCT's Advantage software and these are the calculated amounts of timing retard based on IAT2.
I'm just looking at one of my logs and this was a moderate day for LA and these readings were after driving for 30 minutes in town. This was the only log I had with all these parameters. It was just a cruise and perhaps a little spirited acceleration, no flogging. Ambient temps were 68*, my IAT were 95* (this is at the MAF) and my IAT2s were up to 122* stopped at a traffic signal and 114* once I got moving again. ECT was 176* and cylinder head temps were in the 195* range. Obviously the car ingests underhood air at a stop. At an idle you're not changing out the air in the intake quite as quickly as twice that rpm, which could also account for the higher temperatures. I have the factory cold air heat shield with a factory hood. This was with an AFCO dual fan heat exchanger. These results don't seem that far off from OPs.
If hes not racing then theres no worry.
I still think Killer Chiller is a questionably reputable company. As i recall the member in question was told his stand alone system was ready to go. Either way, KC dropped the ball. All was eventually made right as was agreed but it should never have gone there.
Its up to consumers to decide if its worth the risk doing busoness with a company. They should know who they are getting invloved with though both good and bad.
Maybe a heat exchanger sprayer similar to the Subaru systems. Would help the HE shed a lot of heat quickly and would need nothing more than a modified washer bottle. Just an idea
I still think Killer Chiller is a questionably reputable company. As i recall the member in question was told his stand alone system was ready to go. Either way, KC dropped the ball. All was eventually made right as was agreed but it should never have gone there.
Its up to consumers to decide if its worth the risk doing busoness with a company. They should know who they are getting invloved with though both good and bad.
Maybe a heat exchanger sprayer similar to the Subaru systems. Would help the HE shed a lot of heat quickly and would need nothing more than a modified washer bottle. Just an idea
Hmmm - Interesting. Does the spray vaporize so it doesn't drop water on the street ?
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The drag kit version of the killer chiller is just a electronic shutoff valve ($200) that stops refrigerant flow to the evaporator which stops condensation from the evaporator. Finding out that Kincaid is operating out of a U-storage looks very sketchy but the standard kit has been out for quite some time and is just a cooling block, assortment of fittings, and hose. But since the OP has a fanned triple pass already, I think only way to optimize performance is to remove as much under hood heat as possible.My caveat about the Killer Chiller is two fold:
AC systems generate liquid water that rolls off the evaporator. Unless youre in a dry climate, this is an issue at the track. Leaving water on the track can at best cause guys to spin their wheels that run after you. At worse, it can cause a wreck. Even in a dry climate you can have water come off your evap.
There is apparently a drag race version that doesn't let the water drip. So youll have to empty out a reservoir for that it sounds like.
The second is the company itself. A few months ago, there was a thread about a KC standalone unit that, for lack of a better description, failed miserably. Svtp member got the short end of the stick and got excuse after excuse about where his agreed upon refund was. A shit show to say the least, and that was dealing with the owner if killer chiller.... I personally will never do business with a company that has business ethics like that. Others are certainly free to do as they please.
There are many that love the KC, and many that will look at better solutions from more reputable companies. At least now youve heard the other side.
Sent from my SHIELD Tablet using the svtperformance.com mobile app
Ive no idea if there is a kit out there, but if one could be made with a fine mist spraying in front of the HE, it should help wick away heat faster. The heat would be absorbed by the mist and evaporation *should* theoretically prevent any liquid water from accumulating on the ground.
The Subie guys have their actual Air to Air intercooler mounted on top of the engine and the hood scoop actually feeds the cooling process for the intercooler.
But rice isn't as hot as "real muscle"...
So on the same general conditions... without those fans on my setup (not apples to apples, I know) I have these numbers:
68* ambient
130* IAT(2) at sitting at lights / driving under 35mph
124* IAT(2) at cruising speeds
118* IAT(2) when railing on the accelerator
190* - 198* cylinder head temps
From this I'm gonna deduce those fans, under street driving, are good for about another 10* drop in the underhood temps
Granted this is not an apples to apples by any stretch, but that's about what I have gathered elsewhere... They are just so dang LOUD!
Since half of the heat exchanger is obscured from airflow by the bumper, fans would probably help quite a bit. Now realize, I probably should be wearing hearing aids, but I don't hear the fans running except with the windows down in a semi-enclosed area (garage, bank drive-in). Standing outside of the car, they are fairly loud.
Mine is a 'vert... and co-pilot (wife) said "what's that new noise" when the key went to "ON" and the IC pump kicked on for the first time
She does like the blower whine tho...
Okay, I see the problem. My wife has cat ears too. After almost 40 years, I've worn here down. If there was a way to reduce the fan speed, they wouldn't be near as loud. I had a pair of electric fans on my F-150 that were controlled with a pretty sophisticated fan controller that varied the speeds of the fan. With the Ford Racing radiator I had, the fans were never on full tilt and weren't very noticeable standing in front of the grille. These were dual 16" versions of the same fans we have on these heat exchangers. You might just use one fan instead of two.
I actually started a project for this about a year ago... I have an Arduino I coded up with temp sensors, high amp relays, voltage controllers, basically everything I need to make the fans "smarter"... So - after I install them and see how loud they are (i.e. pass the wife test or not) - I can potentially make them "smart".
There is a small misconception of how the bypass works. Air always passes through the intercooler in all engine driving conditions regardless of whether the engine is in high boost or high vacuum conditions. The bypass valve routes air through the supercharger and intercooler in a loop, when the engine doesn't require a high volume of air to make Hp.
The air exits the supercharger.........it passes through the intercooler to the lower half of the manifold. Where at this point in engine vacuum conditions the bypass valve is open, the air then enters the little plenum at the rear of the intake through the bypass valve and back to the inlet of the supercharger to start the circle again.
The reason for this is the supercharger always moves air by volume in direct relationship to how many RPMs it is turning versus it size. When the engine is under low load cruise or idle conditions it may only require 350 CFM of air to produce the Hp needed. Yet the supercharger can be pumping 750 CFM for the engine RPM, SC size and pulley combination. You need to bypass the difference of the supercharger throughput versus what the engine requires for its present running condition. If you starve the supercharger of this difference in air by volume it will quickly overheat causing the rotors to expand beyond specs, which may cause the supercharger to lock up. The bypass valve and its associated system is designed to constantly move air through the SC to keep the rotors cool. All air exiting the supercharger must pass through the intercooler. The Throttle Body is what is starving the SC for air and allowing the engine to run under a vacuum and for you to see this on a gauge, even though the SC is moving 750CFM of air when the engine only need 350 CFM of air
The air exits the supercharger.........it passes through the intercooler to the lower half of the manifold. Where at this point in engine vacuum conditions the bypass valve is open, the air then enters the little plenum at the rear of the intake through the bypass valve and back to the inlet of the supercharger to start the circle again.
The reason for this is the supercharger always moves air by volume in direct relationship to how many RPMs it is turning versus it size. When the engine is under low load cruise or idle conditions it may only require 350 CFM of air to produce the Hp needed. Yet the supercharger can be pumping 750 CFM for the engine RPM, SC size and pulley combination. You need to bypass the difference of the supercharger throughput versus what the engine requires for its present running condition. If you starve the supercharger of this difference in air by volume it will quickly overheat causing the rotors to expand beyond specs, which may cause the supercharger to lock up. The bypass valve and its associated system is designed to constantly move air through the SC to keep the rotors cool. All air exiting the supercharger must pass through the intercooler. The Throttle Body is what is starving the SC for air and allowing the engine to run under a vacuum and for you to see this on a gauge, even though the SC is moving 750CFM of air when the engine only need 350 CFM of air
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