01 cobra vs 2000 camaro SS? who do you think would win

[tt335ci03cobra]

Oh, and I'll trust Panoz and Koenigsegg vs your assertion that 4v modulars aren't good to work with. They were making 400-650hp with them in 05, lightly sc'd. Now Koenigsegg has their "own" variant of a modular that is a spitting image of fords casting with stronger internals, high flow 4v heads/cams, and 1240+hp in tt ccx-r trim. Just saying.

Hennessy has had a bad rep of failures with 1000hp ohv mills but 1250-1500hp tt ford gt's from them and ugr don't have any common breakage issues... Ohv and high boost is not a recipe for longevity.

 

[Gravik]

Your whole argument rests on comparing a turbo 4.8-5.3 vs an sc 4.6.... Word... Nonono

I'll indulge though, budget junk yard build 4.8-5.3's still break pretty often and the Chinese turbos you talk of leak after 0-3k miles very often enough to give them the notoriety they have.

Many turbo modulars have and do make much more power than these 4.8 and 5.3 builds. Lets compare turbo to turbo and sc to sc. Show me a stock block/piston/rod/head/cam 4.8-5.3 making 1188whp. I'll wait.

Oh, this car was twin charged and would have made more power just tt'd. The heaton was sapping up power uptop.

Here's that bone stock long block 03 cobra 4.6 making 1188whp with just fuel, spark. Head gaskets/studs and tuning software. Stock block, pistons, bearings, rods, crank, cams, heads, valves, springs, retainers, etc.

Hellion hellraiser initial testing. Article was in Hotrod, mm&ff, and 5.0 magazine in 07-08 roughly.

I'm not bashing ohv's but honestly for turbo builds, it's not nearly as easy as it is with factory forged modulars man.

If the 4.8-5.3 takes to a turbo so well as you describe, why wouldn't gm just turbo the cts-v, zr1, zl1, lsa's and ls9's? Gm knows ecotechs very well, they new turbo diesels well enough... The answer is longevity and complexity. With out the adjustability and safety of 4v multi cams, turbos are not nearly as safe/easy to dial in.

Anyways, find me any bone stock Chevy mill that came in a $30-50k production car between 1990-now that has held 1188whp for even a thousand miles. That hell raiser car broke its stock IRS well before the motor ever let go.

It's not uncommon for 4.6 and 5.4 factory forged longblock 4v's to live 5-10,000+ miles with 800+whp. I don't hear of even lsa's or even the $100-130k zr1's ls9 doing so for very long, just saying man. And if you have to spend $100-130k to get a 1000hp capable long block from Chevy, I think it's showing that ohv isn't as epic win as you believe it is boost wise...

Oh and back to the sc front, there's a built 5.4 4v with a 4.2 kb making 1150~whp in mm&ff this month through an auto on 27psi... Tell me thats not out shining the built up 4.8-5.3's making 800whp+ on 10-20psi turbo... And that dudes 1150whp was with a laggy auto otherwise it probably would have made 1300whp based on the graph, it's like 1150whp from 3.5k rpms.

I don't have a pic of the graph but I'm sure others in this thread have seen the article. Fully built? Ya it runs 8.10's@170, but its 300-500whp more than the tubo mills your talking about so its obviously vastly superior anyways/has earned it's build cost in epic win especially being sc. If it was turbo it would easily be a 1500whp monster.

The 323ci tt modular 5.4 4v based aeromotive car (5.3) has made 2200whp... Find me any 4.7-5.3 in any build, cost being no concern, that has done so. I'll wait.

Cobra already has a forged/built motor from the factory though...

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Yup. That's the point. Completely stock longblock modulars can handle 1000hp, 5.3's can't though contrary to his story about 15psi turbo 4.8&5.3's embarrassing 4v sc cars...sc vs turbo is also a logical fallacy.

And the 1000hp turbo 5.3 in superchevy had ported heads, lifters, springs, cam (2 cams actually, second cam was a 286xh! Good luck streeting -5 vacuum at idle, cool sound/romp though.) as well as a complete FAST unit, no accessories save a water pump/essentials, forged stroker 383 internals, then a turbo.

Unless I read the wrong 7 part series, I didn't see a stock 4.8 or 5.3 make much more than 616hp on stock internals with a 125shot. I'm upto part 4, and so far I feel "ignorant" that I'm wasting my time reading how a built 5.3 can make 1000hp... I already knew that. Nice article though. The block is strong enough for 1000hp, that's nothing special these days though, the longblock definitely wasn't. They changed head gaskets and studs before even making 360hp (they didn't need to but had already torn the block apart to inspect it, fair move/wise decision) but we don't even know if it would have had a gasket failure at 493hp let alone 616 with the 125 shot... Just saying so far I'm not sold on it being anything more than a great budget block that you can get for $300-700 at most wrecking yards. For boost it'll need internals though.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Just finished up that 7 part series. Nice article. I saw a fully built 5.3 stroked to 5.8 with 4 cam swaps, ported heads ditched for aftermarket heads, nitrous ditched for a 2.9 whipple ditched for twin turbos, fast efi to carb/dual carb/bbk ssi efi, as well as tons of supporting mods from rockers to oil pan/pump/fuel/spark/etc that recieved 2 different header sets make 963 on an engine dyno without full dress accessories, or full exhaust on 12.8psi.

I also saw a fully undressed/non accessory/dumped exhaust "bone stock" 5.3 with an accufab throttle body and upgraded exhaust manifolds make 608hp on 11.x psi of boost with an fast system single turbo on an engine dyno...

I'm not seeing 1000hp anywhere in the article and not even 610hp stock short block out of the gem you say will embarrass sc'd 4v's. I'd also venture to bet that a Chinese turbo'd budget intercooled forward facing headered street lm7 5.3 budget built as you assert without internal work will have a hard time making 450-500whp through a tranny with accessories like ac pump and an emissions compliant muffled exhaust. You're looking at $2-3,000 minimum and 30 hrs of work to put that all together on a tomato farmers budget. $300-700 for the block, $500+ for the turbo, $400 for the fmic, $1-300 in plumbing, raw materials, gaskets, clamps, fittings, etc if you go cheap or nice stuff, $2-400 forward facing headers/manifolds, etc. Let alone $400 for a hand held programmer unless you want to figure out a blow through carbbed single turbo setup, and $250-500 for dyno tuning if its efi. Oh don't forget fuel and spark mods but I won't consider that since any application, ford, Chevy, Toyota, Cadillac, et al will necessitate those so it's the same either way, probably cheaper on a cobra because the parts are more commonly bought/supply and demand.

Stock 4.6L 2v mustang gt motors from 99-04 are good for/have made 450-550whp stock longblock single and twin turbo man, really not omg amazing that a stock 5.3 can do the same... Stock longblock 5.4 2v's have made 600whp on factory internals with single 66's. we all know ford 2v heads are not stock for stock, anywhere near 4v's flow wise. 125-155cfm 2v vs 225-275+cfm 4v.

03 cobras make that kind of power, 450-500whp, for $1500 on a high with bolt ons-cai, pulley, programmer, catback, o/r x. Hell for another $1500, a ported blower or used tvs can see 525-620whp... Add a $250-500 dyno tune and its a docile reliable driver.

Better still, for $3.5k, you can buy a reputable single 76/68 for $800, buy your own fittings/plumbing/et al for $300, fab an exhaust out the front bumper and make 700whp on pump gas. Throw $250-500 for a tune and call it a day.

Again fuel/spark mods aren't in those numbers because its the same cost on both builds. I'm obviously missing some supporting mods like maf's or +2 plugs, etc or drivetrain but you get the idea.

Also, na vs na, the 324ci 5.3 made 493hp "streetable" with a 286xh cam, -5 inches of idle vacuum on an engine dyno, undressed with header only exhaust.

Sean Hyland made 550hp similarly dressed/exhausted on a na 5.4 4v navigator block with 9.5/1 compression and wild 292xh cams.i don't see the super badassery even na comparing the lm7 5.3 vs the 5.4 4v navigator block.

Honestly, size and packaging advantage is all I see but power wise, the 5.4 4v navigator trumps the 5.3 IMO.

 

[MACHXLR8]

tt335...I have to say that you seem to know your shit! Good writeups also...:beer:

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Thanks man, I was couped in the office all day so I went a bit over kill but all in the name of good spirited bench racing haha.

 

[mrlrd1]

tt335...I have to say that you seem to know your shit! Good writeups also...:beer:

He doesn't know a damn thing.

Handhelds? $200-$400 for truck manifolds that come with a junkyard truck engine? 450-500rwhp for a budget turbo 5.3? Citing a magazine? All are completely ignorant, and laughable.

Every major Mustang and/or turbo oriented forum has a TON of turbo junkyard 5.3 swaps, yet this guy still doesn't "see it". 600rwhp is very common with a junkyard 5.3 with a Z06 cam (550ish without the cam) with a cheap 70/76mm setup, and it's done on mild boost and timing, pump gas, THROUGH AN UNLOCKED TH400.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

He doesn't know a damn thing.

Handhelds? $200-$400 for truck manifolds that come with a junkyard truck engine? 450-500rwhp for a budget turbo 5.3? Citing a magazine? All are completely ignorant, and laughable.

Every major Mustang and/or turbo oriented forum has a TON of turbo junkyard 5.3 swaps, yet this guy still doesn't "see it". 600rwhp is very common with a junkyard 5.3 with a Z06 cam (550ish without the cam) with a cheap 70/76mm setup, and it's done on mild boost and timing, pump gas, THROUGH AN UNLOCKED TH400.

Ya bring em my way, I'll run low boost and do them a nice spanky spank.

Your shits lame, go back to your interweb cave

 

[S8ER01Z]

Fwiw I see stock ls6 blocks hitting 600-650rwhp and running for several years (A&A kits). Comparing a forged built for boost block to one that's not and it should be obvious which is going to win.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I'm not trying to talk shit on budget builds because I can respect that not everyone can do an expensive build but honestly, 600whp isn't impressive for a turbo 5.3 man. Turbo 2.3 evo's are making 600whp... With a 5.3, 1000-1200whp is respectable.

Stock head, cam, internals coyote's are making 950whp on 12-15psi dude, sorry but the 5.3 is not in the same league as forged modulars and coyotes man.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

If you like wrenching on swapping engines/parts every few hundred to thousand miles, then the 4.8-5.3's is nice. But I don't like tearing apart my motor everytime I get on it pretty hard for a few weeks. If you do then great for you.

Boosted ls6's have made 600whp for long enough, so have 5.4 2v's... Not really impressive IMO but nice nonetheless, definitely not weak but nothing epic.

Edit: when I say the 5.3 is nice if you don't mind tearing your engine apart often, it's because at the power levels your talking about, 600whp, it's not going to last long. Yes it's substantially more power than the safer 450-500whp I mentioned, but even at $300-700, who wants to be blowing up/installing blocks often? Lots of labor and after 2-3 of them, you're starting to add up to decent pistons/possibly rods and pistons depending if you can only find those 5.3's on the high side of that $300-700 range. Why not just build it to handle 800whp with good rods/pistons and spend the $1500~-2250~ upfront?

Again I'm not here to knock 5.3's or gm motors but when you come in here all ignorant and talk shit on modulars because a handful of ohv's have made 600whp and one 5.3 made 963, I'm going to wave the bs flag.

Why didn't you just quote the 608hp stock block 5.3 from your article instead of insinuate the "1000hp" one as being stock? Why did you go all warchief that these budget 5.3's whoop up sc'd modulars?

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Oh and mrlrd... If I don't know a damn thing then **** you and your couch Rick James. Bored.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

He doesn't know a damn thing.

Handhelds? $200-$400 for truck manifolds that come with a junkyard truck engine? 450-500rwhp for a budget turbo 5.3? Citing a magazine? All are completely ignorant, and laughable.

Haha, stop and think man. You're the one who cited an article in the first place. You mentioned the 1000hp 5.3's and budget turbo 5.3's whooping on sc terminators, remember that? That 5.3 was 963hp in a magazine with an unlimited budget fully built up, cam, heads, intake, FAST, fully forged 383 stroker so 6.4L...twin 76's that definitely weren't cheap Chinese crap like you were talking about, etc. Your argument fell apart when i presenter the facts bro.

Funny how that magazine only saw 608hp undressed out of a 323ci stock internal 5.3, header only with an accufab, and FAST. Maybe if you run 10-12psi you'll make 600whp but good luck with that lasting long on hypereutonic internals, just saying.

Honestly, the 5.3 is not a bad mill by any means but you coming in here all ignorant about them being amazing is pretty tacky man, you are making them and 5.3 guys look bad which they aren't, you're just off your rocker. I had respect for the 5.3's before and have even a bit more for them now but your doing their whole scene an injustice with your fanboy crap. Get real man.

 

[S8ER01Z]

How many new 5.0s are pushing 650+ rwhp with regular use? Just curious...I saw numerous sources saying 650+ was a ticking time bomb but that was shortly after they first came out.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Theyre robust actually. 650whp for a coyote thats well tuned is "safe." They can easily be a time bomb if tuned incorrectly, or setup poorly or just unlucky but all three are low chance scenarios with a studied owner. If you keep up on checking fluids/fuel/spark as regular maintenance, have it tuned reputable (guesstimating with a game not program need not apply here) they'll be fine. As with longevity in general, the owner can decide how long it should likely last. If its rallied to an 100 on every road, cold start boosting, not getting fresh clean fluids often, not correctly gapped plugs or an occasional a/f checkup/doesn't have an a/f gauge I the car, then tick tick boom is likely just like a fully forged $15,000 motor can be grenaded in weeks with a similar owner.

A lot of people are making anywhere from 600-9xxwhp on factory coyote internals with mixed use. It's not going to last forever but an honest 5,000 miles (9xx) and much more can be had out of them even at those power levels with track outings. Some have broke day one, most haven't but will eventually and some will never see the track or break, or are garage baby's that see 500-1500 a year (a lot like my car hahaha).

The vvt-ti in their heads allows the tune to be very very boost friendly. You can push and pull timing pretty much as much as you'd like and make detonation almost a non issue. Factory compression is high, but you can make static compression 7/1 by pulling it all out from 5k rpms on (not the most powerful but doable)

They are high compression factory, but longblock for longblock, a coyote will live at 650whp much longer than just about any other high compression na motor will at any price level, let alone a $30-$40k pony car. They are much more robust than ls7's for comparison at about only 60% of the displacement.

In essence, even though neither the coyote nor the na 4.6 na 5.4 4v's, or any ls1/2/3/6/7's aren't factory boost mills, are all "high compression" na mills, and weigh within 100-150lbs of eachother roughly, the tiny 5.0 coyote supersedes them all if boost is a wanted addition, by leaps and bounds. A booster coyote is more robust than light fordged/budget friendlu piston/rod ls's on average. It's not a rule but where 800whp is getting dangerous on a mild forge piston build ls6, a coyote is ready to go 12 rounds at that level assuming proper setup and care. They aren't made of glass at that power level but they aren't diamond either. A forged piston stock et al coyote will last a good long while even at 900whp, maybe 5-10k miles with modest to moderate track outings.

900+whp coyote's won't live long at all on that power level if they're beaten on all the time but if you have twins or a big single, cruise around on 4-6psi making 600-700whp, not driving like a hooligan but getting on it often enough to only average say 14-17mpg, some on ramp romps, a few canyon straight away pulls, some freeway fun here and there, etc (just not Indianapolis500 on every red light/straight road/reckless driving everywhere), then bump the boost upto 10-15psi, run 116, have nice safe well managed dyno tunes, check your fluids, spark, fuel system before hitting the track, run a few 9 and even high 8 passes (factory (6r80's?) 6spd auto trannys with converters and shift tunes have gone this fast, im not talking th400 autos) on slicks/et any setup, then check a quick run through after passes, bump boost down drive it smooth home, maybe romp on the on ramps a little-that kind of life will not blow up a coyote very quick. A mature driver shouldn't see a fail near as often.

The ones blowing up at 650whp are either driven very hard, not tuned all that spot on/setup completely properly, or in small instances, are simply the unlucky ducklings that weren't as strong as most do to quality of manufacturing but this is rare to say the least.

It also depends on the type of boost. If you're making 650whp on well tuned/setup turbos @ 4-5psi, you are very safe.

5-6psi on a centri, it's still safe but the extra boost isn't as friendly obviously nor is parasitic drag.

5.5-7psi on a roots/lyshom/pd- safest is pd, then lyshom then roots for the same reasons as the Centri's plus extra heat and more drag but still safe enough that a responsible owner can and will see 20k miles and more very easily.

These motors are so new that their life expectancy is hard to gauge, but compression tests are showing a year of life at 650+whp in any combo isn't that bad at all unless its driven very hard. If your hitting 150 on every drive to work, ya it'll blow up quick but that driver will lose their license quicker any ways and go to jail probably before it lets go unless they live in Germany haha.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I even had my doubts on the 5.0's back when they 1st launched but now I'm wanting to build a 5.0 or 5.8 4v vvt-ti fully forged to replace my 5.4 when it eventually lets go. The vvt-ti modulars are epic.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

And again, I'm not here trying to talk shit on Chevys, I like them for na builds and epic swaps, ls and lm motors are epic in their own right and can be built to work well with turbos, no hate here.

 

[Jroc]

Well this thread has getting a little off topic, but I just hope that Ford uses the 5.0 in the next Cobra/GT500. IMO a 5.4 is more of a truck motor than the shorter 4.6/5.0 blocks, but obviously the 5.4 has a ton of power potential, but the only gasoline motor that I know of that has a longer stroke than a 4.165" stroke Modular is a old Vortec 8100(4.375" stroke I believe) that GM didn't seem to use in their 2500 trucks very long.

The 2013 GT500's 5.4 based 5.8 is one hell of a badass powerhouse motor, but a 5.0 based motor should be much more high RPM friendly, and the 5.8 is basically built like a big bore 5.4 Triton where the Coyote/Roadrunner motors are actually quite different than the older Modular design. Even the firing orders different their block just share about the same foot print. IDK about the aluminum blocks, but when talking iron blocks the 4.6 block is about 40 lbs lighter than a 5.4 block, and the iron 5.4 block has actually had a couple of revisions to beefen it up the last one I know of being in 03 but beefing it up added weight to the block. With a TVS 2300 a 5.0 will still make plenty of lowend power I feel sure.

IMO Ford hit a home run with the new 5.0's. Even N/A they mod well, and they love boost. They are light and compact as far as most 90* DOHC v8's displaceing 302 ci's go, etc. I'm just wanting to see what this motor can do with DI.

I tell you one motor that's fairly heavy, but that could be just one hell of a powerhouse of a motor if Ford decided to make it an all aluminum motor, and really try and tap into it's potential is the Boss 302. That motor isn't cursed with a small bore like a Modular, and it's 2v heads all quite a lot more efficent than old Modular 2v heads and they are just production truck heads. That motor can also easily be taken past 7 liters. With it's short(as far as larger modern OHC Ford motors go) stroke and big bore that could be made into like a modern day 427 motor similar to the old 427 BBF that was found in certain GT40's and Shelby Cobra's, and turn some high RPM's. Maybe if Ford were to ever decide to make another FGT or something similar they could use that motor and do something like that. I feel sure that that motor given that displacement could easily make 600+ HP in a factory reliable performance motor.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

What good is a smaller displacement engine if it's larger, heavier, more complex, more expensive, and produces less torque with comparable or worse fuel consumption?

Potential. It might be marginally "inferior" by 29lbs and 6hp stock vs an ls3 (or 15hp more than an ls6, etc etc) but throw boost at them both bone stock from oil pan to head studs and see which one is still kicking at 800+whp. With coyote's you trade a little size and weight for godly tunable safety/longevity for an na high compression engine. I can't think of any affordable ($30k cars) consumer market factory available na high compression motor that handles boost as well and safely as a coyote. Ten years from now, when coyotes are $12k and less, they will be the holy grail of budget build 9 and 8 second cars.

Mpg wise, modern modulars take it in spades without cylinder deactivation. Heck, a $55-65k 3850# 662hp(under rated) 2013 gt500 can knock out ~25mpg hw. A $110-130+k 3250lbs 638hp zr1 (twice price, 600lbs lighter) barely gets 20mpg hw... Just saying. I know a well driven ls1/2/3/6/7 can get 28mpg+ hw with t56 overdrives and had viper spec overdrives put in my car to replicate this as well as a 3.08 rear for traction/powerband/1400rpms at 75 also. I'm not saying a Chevy can't get great mpg, but its not like modulars are polluting the earth or breaking the bank for 1-2mpg traded off in vette vs mustang engine mpg comparisons, I don't see Camaro's doing what vettes do mpg wise, I think the vettes aero coupled with its feather weight and overdrives with 3.42's has tons to do with its mpg. The new lt1 with vvt, di and cd should get 30mpg hw easily, that's badass considering 450/450 and 0-60 under 4 seconds. Bowdown.

Should we all just use small block Chevys then?

We should all use Coyote's!! (Half joking, half sinister/mass crushing of gm cars evil dictator truthfulness)

 

[OW99]

We should all use Coyote's!! (Half joking, half sinister/mass crushing of gm cars evil dictator truthfulness)

Nah brah. B18c5, it was designed with formula one technology. I'm putting one in my Chevelle when it's done......lol