Suspension/cornering geometry gt500 va zl1 1le

[tt335ci03cobra]

Lets have an honest discussion about the mathematical benefits and setbacks of the s550 chassis vs the alpha platform camaro as assessed by comparing their highest performing renditions.

I’ve heard a lot of talk that the zl1 1le is so far beyond anything Ford could do with the gt350r or gt500 but I honestly don’t believe the hype as I haven’t seen much to completely paint a dramatic picture of camaro dominance. When I look into things like geometry and cross section, weight balance, height etc, I don’t see enough measurable and consequential difference to ring any alarm bells in my obviously mustang biased mind. When I compare lap times and cornering speeds of gt350r’s vs zl1’s and zl1 1le’s, I see the tire making YUGE differences, but I don’t see any of the cars running away from one another assuming a similar tire. Same story with the 1LE. I do see the 1LE slaughtering the gtpp1 but then the pp2 brings home the bacon and ties it up again.

I’d like to welcome any and all conversation be it fanboy, be it civil, be it mathematically correct. Let’s hear it all and filter out the noise from the data. I think we are all adults, and can handle getting to the truth.

And go:

 

[ToddW702]

The only thing I can contribute is I hear journalists from motor trend always praising the alpha platform.

I agree that tire plays a big role in these tests.

I could see those same journalists giving praise to any new model that cuts the weight out. They do drive a lot of cars and I am always curious as to what is so good about the alpha. I guess it would help to drive one.

Going from my 13 Gt to my 17 Gt definitely was a night and day difference and I think my new (S550) car handles really well and very balanced. It inspires a good amount of confidence. I have also passed more then a few alpha platform Camaros on the track but we are mostly amateurs out there so that isn’t the best reference.

Not sure if I have contributed anything but that is my two cents.


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[tt335ci03cobra]

I read a motorend review of the gtpp2 yesterday describing the car as almost a 1le, but a bit tail happy. Randy Phohbst wanted a bit more front bar or a smaller rear bar to quell oversteer. Car didn’t have the low grunt of the 1le and required shifting during their figure 8 test from 2nd to 3rd, shifter didn’t engage as telepathically as the 1le’s. Brakes were fantastic.

 

[ON D BIT]

There’s a big difference between a race car suspension to a street car that handles really really well. 1le have the no travel feel that adds grip and force through the corners, yet 98% buyers don’t want a car that that rides that rough.

GTPP were always too soft and slower on the track but sold better.

Drive feel is amazing in the R, the zl11le is a lot faster and yet the praises stop at its fast. That tells me a lot.

 

[GT Premi]

... I’ve heard a lot of talk that the zl1 1le is so far beyond anything Ford could do with the gt350r or gt500...

The only people I see that coming from are the hardcore Camaro fanboys. If you want to look at what's ultimately capable of the chassis, look at the race cars. How many wins does the Alpha chassis have compared to the S550? That says a lot right there. Now look at the technical track data of the GT350R versus the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE. Corner speeds show the R is almost persistently ahead of the ZL1. The ZL1 1LE is barely ahead of it in the bends, owing to its aggressive front aero plus the added HP. The R is just some HP away from showing the ZL1 and the ZL1 1LE tail lights all day on track. Now imagine a GT500 with 600+ NA HP with a race derived traditional suspension and weight similar to or less than the GT350R.

 

[conceptmachine]

The only people I see that coming from are the hardcore Camaro fanboys. If you want to look at what's ultimately capable of the chassis, look at the race cars. How many wins does the Alpha chassis have compared to the S550? That says a lot right there. Now look at the technical track data of the GT350R versus the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE. Corner speeds show the R is almost persistently ahead of the ZL1. The ZL1 1LE is barely ahead of it in the bends, owing to its aggressive front aero plus the added HP. The R is just some HP away from showing the ZL1 and the ZL1 1LE tail lights all day on track. Now imagine a GT500 with 600+ NA HP with a race derived traditional suspension and weight similar to or less than the GT350R.

a 600HP NA, 3500lb S550, would be epic!

 

[AustinSN]

Can't say for the top dog cars but for the more base cars I can give a quick assessment of where the Alpha chassis is better.

Stock 1SS vs Stock GTPP (which are competitors based on tires and brakes).

The Camaro is more neutral, the GTPP is slightly more understeer prone.

Camaro under trail braking is more stable/confident.

Square up the tires and the cars get significantly more similar.

The lighter weight of the Alpha is the most important factor, also I really wish Ford would give us better camber adjustment like the Camaro has.

I have a lot of laps behind both on track, stock and squared up (and aligned).

 

[Tob]

If you want to look at what's ultimately capable of the chassis, look at the race cars. How many wins does the Alpha chassis have compared to the S550?

I was at the recent IMSA Continental series race at VIR. It was the first this season for a Camaro. It was a dominant car and got a podium finish - don't discount it one bit.

The car is a beast and no less such than any Mustang that it competes against.

Can't say for the top dog cars but for the more base cars I can give a quick assessment of where the Alpha chassis is better.

The lighter weight of the Alpha is the most important factor, also I really wish Ford would give us better camber adjustment like the Camaro has.

I've been lucky enough to run a GT350 and a new 1LE at the same track. The Camaro has an equally capable chassis. I also had the opportunity to disassemble and inspect quite a bit of the Camaro from underneath the car. The chassis is more advanced than that of the S550 and GM has taken advantage of lightweighting at many locations where the Mustang has not.

 

[GT Premi]

I was at that same race. I was actually shocked the Camaro GT4 won its class. Must've been some really good fuel and pit strategy. I was very disappointed with the Multimatic Mustang that weekend.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I was at the recent IMSA Continental series race at VIR. It was the first this season for a Camaro. It was a dominant car and got a podium finish - don't discount it one bit.

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The car is a beast and no less such than any Mustang that it competes against.



I've been lucky enough to run a GT350 and a new 1LE at the same track. The Camaro has an equally capable chassis. I also had the opportunity to disassemble and inspect quite a bit of the Camaro from underneath the car. The chassis is more advanced than that of the S550 and GM has taken advantage of lightweighting at many locations where the Mustang has not.

Very interesting, I’m peaqued. What areas would you say the camaro has a decided advantage in? Go as technical as you’d like, this is the meat and potatoes I think we all need to honesty stomach and discuss so that we can hopefully propel ford to at least consider improving these areas if at all possible. Thanks Tob!

 

[AustinSN]

I was at that same race. I was actually shocked the Camaro GT4 won its class. Must've been some really good fuel and pit strategy. I was very disappointed with the Multimatic Mustang that weekend.

If you knew the BoP adjustments for the Mustang for that race, it's less surprising with how the Mustangs did.

Not taking anything away from the Camaro, it's hard to do well in that series against all those fast cars.

 

[Tob]

I was at that same race. I was actually shocked the Camaro GT4 won its class. Must've been some really good fuel and pit strategy.

The Camaro didn't win its class but rather it finished third (in GS).

The Camaro team gambled and stayed on slicks IIRC, while many of the other teams went to rain tires. It dried up quickly and the teams with rain tires were running waay slower on each lap. The issue became one of when to pit so as to minimize how much further they fell behind. I was right there when the call was made to switch to rain tires and it absolutely made sense. So in this case the Camaro got a huge bump up front by defying conventional wisdom.

Very interesting, I’m peaqued. What areas would you say the camaro has a decided advantage in? Go as technical as you’d like, this is the meat and potatoes I think we all need to honesty stomach and discuss so that we can hopefully propel ford to at least consider improving these areas if at all possible. Thanks Tob!

The Camaro and Mustang chassis are very close. All I can say is that if you compare the various suspension links (size, weight), driveshaft(s), K-members, axles, hubs, brakes, etc (the list goes on), the S550 chassis has yet to be "streamlined" if you will. If you stand under each and compare it becomes blatantly obvious - The S550 has quite a bit of fat that could be trimmed. GM moved the battery to the trunk (passenger side) which is a common sense decision from an enthusiasts mindset. Add to that the fact that the 1LE cars have had rev matching, a Performance Data Recorder, and a functional front tow hook, it becomes clear to me who has their ear close to the ground.

The rumors about heft and the GT500 have me thinking that Ford has addressed none of these deficiencies. I seriously hope they prove me wrong and release a car that makes numerous tweaks to chassis components that really should have been done in 2015. I do expect them to play catchup on some other items I mentioned.

If you knew the BoP adjustments for the Mustang for that race, it's less surprising with how the Mustangs did.

Not taking anything away from the Camaro, it's hard to do well in that series against all those fast cars.

The Camaro absolutely has an advantage via the rulebook at present. Since the Camaro isn't in the running to win anything this season, I believe that the sanctioning body is trying to encourage more teams to run a Camaro next year and to add to the field (not simply convert one for another) by loosening the reins a bit such that the Camaro looks as appealing as can be. This race was an example that I believe showed much of that.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Excellent feedback, thank you Tob!

So in an uncapped budget scenario, superior control arms, linkages, and hubs/spindles, would really benefit an s550?

In your opinion, would the floor plan of the s550 itself be any trickier to build up vs the alpha chassis? Subframe and component seems to go to the alpha platform, but could ford revamp the actual subframe mounting points, as well as knuckles, spindles etc and make up the difference or does the alpha floor plan just set up for superior geometry from the get go? I’ve looked at both on lifts and the maths escape my eyes from being able to comprehend much static difference in the floor plans, but obviously centimeters are essential when talking about suspension geometry and centimeters hide from the eyes

 

[GT Premi]

When you start talking about changing the floor pan and mounting points, you're talking about building a new chassis. It wouldn't be an S550 anymore. Like Tob mentioned, there are so many other areas where Ford could've trimmed the fat on the S550 but simply chose not to. They instead put R&D money towards giving us pretty digital gauges, heated and cooled seats, shiny trim pieces, etc. Even though they've made great strides with the Mustang, they're still building to the lowest common denominator. But we can at least be thankful that the denominator is no longer the straight line racing guy. Now we need to shake off the "I need my Mustang to be like a Mercedes" guy. For as much as Mustangs are starting to cost for a nice one, I'd much rather spend that money on a lighter, smaller, and tighter chassis/suspension than on luxury accoutrements. If you want luxury, that 50 grand for a nicely equipped Mustang GT will get you a nice little Audi, Mercedes, or BMW.

Tob, I could swear I heard the announcer say the Camaro crossed the finish line first in GS. Either way, I was still shocked the Camaro grabbed the podium over the Mustangs, especially considering there was only ONE in the race. That wasn't a good look.

 

[Tob]

So in an uncapped budget scenario, superior control arms, linkages, and hubs/spindles, would really benefit an s550?

In your opinion, would the floor plan of the s550 itself be any trickier to build up vs the alpha chassis? Subframe and component seems to go to the alpha platform, but could ford revamp the actual subframe mounting points, as well as knuckles, spindles etc and make up the difference or does the alpha floor plan just set up for superior geometry from the get go? I’ve looked at both on lifts and the maths escape my eyes from being able to comprehend much static difference in the floor plans, but obviously centimeters are essential when talking about suspension geometry and centimeters hide from the eyes

I don't even see it as being an uncapped budget. GM has optimized numerous links such that they are lighter than what Ford uses. Ford optimizes as well but hasn't gone to an extreme while of course, still meeting minimum strength requirements, etc. Ford is still using a stamped and welded K-member assembly while GM further reduces weight by using aluminum. Ford is milking every penny out of their original design and have thus far refused to make even minor changes here. Great from a cost standpoint but not necessarily for those looking for maximum performance by way (in this regard anyway) of weight reduction.

Ford has nailed the geometry and absolutely on point there. The double ball joint front suspension is leaps and bounds better than any previous generation of Mustang with MacPherson struts. Ford refuses to change to an SLA up front and as such this is about as good as it gets. The Magnetic dampers are a gift from GM/Delphi (who sold the rights, yada, yada) but Ford has been a generation behind. In terms of maximum track performance it isn't even close. GM absolutely crushes Ford's best.

Ford has kept the aluminum knuckles exclusive to the GT350 to date. I expect a further refined version to make its way to the GT500 (evidence of that is the leaked photo showed an even larger GT350-style rotor/caliper). The knuckle provides a radial mount caliper that helps to ensure a stiff foundation - all good. The hub used is easily Ford's best ever for a Mustang. The calipers Ford used on the GT350 as well as what will come on the GT500 are providing a level of braking that rivals the best of the best production cars to date. The problem is that their weight is considerable and they mandate a larger wheel. In the case of the upcoming GT500, a 20" will be necessary for clearance alone. Heft snowballs quickly in this regard.

Out back, I don't see a lighter IRS assembly either. At the power levels Ford has hinted at, axle diameter (hollow or otherwise) will grow. If not, Ford will have a to impart some rather restrictive electronic controls to alleviate hardware carnage. I'd rather pay the price and gain the weight here. Ford has been working with BASF on composite subframe assemblies but given Ford's history I doubt they would introduce it on this model as much as it could be of substantial benefit.

The list goes on. Ford does have an opportunity to surprise everyone with some innovative choices but I honestly don't see it. I don't doubt for a moment their capability. Rather the decisions made at the top which ultimately affect how far the engineers can go. I have not given up hope though that at it's introduction I walk away pleased because the unexpected was somehow able to push through the ridiculous barrier of heavily laden red tape.

...I was still shocked the Camaro grabbed the podium over the Mustangs, especially considering there was only ONE in the race. That wasn't a good look.

I was not shocked at all. Given the BOP rules that favor the Camaro, I had little doubt that it had an advantage over the Mustang. I said the same thing about how it would look if the lone entrant runs away from the Mustang pack. Well, it did and the question remains - will the sanctioning body make BOP adjustments (like they did to the Mustang numerous times this season) to even things up? Again, my sense is no as this is about promoting that car for next season.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Tob, thank you for the input and illumination.

 

[GTSpartan]

The Camaro and Mustang chassis are very close. All I can say is that if you compare the various suspension links (size, weight), driveshaft(s), K-members, axles, hubs, brakes, etc (the list goes on), the S550 chassis has yet to be "streamlined" if you will. If you stand under each and compare it becomes blatantly obvious - The S550 has quite a bit of fat that could be trimmed. GM moved the battery to the trunk (passenger side) which is a common sense decision from an enthusiasts mindset. Add to that the fact that the 1LE cars have had rev matching, a Performance Data Recorder, and a functional front tow hook, it becomes clear to me who has their ear close to the ground.

While certainly not 100% apples to apples, when you look at similarly equipped 4cyl versions of each, the Camaro is normally >200# lighter. Given that they have similar engine/transmissions and wheel/brake/tire offerings (i.e. weights of each), it suggests just what you are saying about GM have more of a streamlined chassis.

 

[Tob]

I was at MGW's facility in Augusta, Georgia with a new 1LE on one lift and a GT350 on the adjacent lift. I was already familiar with the GT350 chassis but this was a golden opportunity to take a closer look at the Camaro. We had already tracked each and they were very close in terms of performance. The exhaust system aft of the manifolds was removed along with the driveshaft and a number of other components on the Camaro. It was readily apparent how different the philosophies were between the two with respect to weight reduction. The one that really surprised me was the Camaro driveshaft - two small diameter, extremely lightweight, tubes. No comparison the the shafts on the S550 that are pretty much carry over from the S197. Everything just seemed better integrated or "cleaner" if you will. Walking back over to and under the GT350 brought disappointment. And I love the fact that GM is using the latest TR6060 instead of the TR3160 as it is far beefier.

I could go on. Ford can do better and has a golden opportunity here. Given the current state of affairs though, I struggle in seeing it happen.

 

[gimmie11s]

Great, great info in this thread.

GM has their eye on the ball while Ford wants to give us an electric, Mustang-based SUV.

SMH


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[Tob]

Organized to a T, simple to grab the beefy threaded hook, pop out a grille panel, and thread the hook into place. If Ford doesn't provide something similar on the GT500 (should have been on the GT350 in 2015 for that matter) they will have really missed the mark. Small, simple details really matter.