GT500 IC/HE Pump Comparison

[94 Cobra R]

Thank you! I’ll def be referencing this threa a lot.

 

[Beercules]

If you're still looking for a flow restriction, just use a smaller hose on the bypass (degas) loop. It'll create more headloss. Or, in pipelines, they use just an orifice plate.

I found on an HVAC site, they prefer turbulent flow in heat exchangers because it creates more surface contact with the metal (in laminar flow the flow in the center of the tube doesn't touch the metal, so doesn't transfer enthalpy easily).

Use large ID hoses for less headloss, use pumps with high flow (and pressure) to create turbulent conditions in the heat exchangers.

Hose Water Flow - Pressure Loss

 

[Beercules]

Interesting that you would say that, as another member has "thermal engineers" telling him you can't have to much pump, and I said you can. Bubbles don't cool, you need smooth flow to make contact. When a pump cavitates, you will overheat, plain and simple. Tell that to your "thermal engineer" lol...


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Also, if you had to pick, bigger pump or bigger HE, you will always choose bigger HE. Ideally, you would want a large HE, and a small flowing (4gpm) pump. You will always run out of HE capacity before you run out of pump.

If you had an "ocean sized" capacity, pump speed could be 4oz/min, and you would never overheat. Put 4oz of water on a gas stove ("IAT2" of burning natural gas about 3500F), and try to boil it, your flow is 0, but it would take several minutes to boil.

The coolant could sit there for several minutes, in the IC, without boiling. It won't boil instantly, or within one minute....so you can see with a 0 gpm pump, you would have a few mins before your coolant boils with the 350F or so temps the supercharger charged air temp creates (much less than 3500F!).

Again:

small HE + fast pump = overheating due to coolant capacity and possibly cavitation

small HE + slow pump = overheating due to capacity, not flow!

LARGE HE + slow pump = no problems

LARGE HE + fast pump = overheating if flow exceeds restriction

So, however you look at it, you need to size the pump correctly, and if you overheat, it MORE THAN LIKELY will always be because of coolant capacity, NOT pump flow, unless the pump is too large for the system.

It's the same reason you couldn't drive your car at top speed, or max rated HP, until you ran out of gas, you would OVERHEAT at some point, due to capacity, nothing else (obviously not airflow / fans, and a bigger water pump won't help you either, only adding more coolant capacity will)!!

When you lap a road course, unless you have enough coolant capacity, you will eventually overheat. Both the HE and radiator are closed systems, and nothing works 100% efficiently, so each lap adds just a little more heat than can be rejected. So this "BIGGEST PUMP I CAN FIT IS BEST", is an incorrect blanket statement.

Death by a 1000 cuts....

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Now, on short bursts, a faster pump will work, as long as it's not exceeding the inherent restriction in the system and the pump you are replacing was UNDERSIZED TO BEGIN WITH, but after one complete cycle of the coolant, you WILL RAISE IAT2s. So for short drag racing bursts, properly sizing a larger pump to your set up will work, but once that coolant has made a complete round trip, your IAT2s WILL RISE incrementally. Ideally for drag racing, you would want enough flow to get 100% of the coolant through the IC just as you cross the line. Circulating more than once, too fast will raise temps.

Sorry, I have to disagree.

If the pump is cavitating you either have a hole in the intake line (pulling in air) or are pulling faster that the fluid can move in the hose size (pressure drops below the fluid's vapor pressure), replace with larger diameter hose. Pressurize the system to see if you have a leak.

You don't want laminar flow in HEs, the fluid in the center of the line will stay in the center and won't transfer it's heat energy to the metal. With turbulent flow (in the heat exchanger, not the hose) Eddy currents will continually mix the fluid and force most every molecule against the metal, shedding enthalpy.

With the puking reservoir, use 2 tees and hose. Run a large hose from the HE to the pump, tee in a small diameter bypass leading in/out of the reservoir in the large hose. This will serve to degas and bleed the system.

Use high flow pumps.

 

[CCS86]

Sorry, I have to disagree.

If the pump is cavitating you either have a hole in the intake line (pulling in air) or are pulling faster that the fluid can move in the hose size (pressure drops below the fluid's vapor pressure), replace with larger diameter hose. Pressurize the system to see if you have a leak.

You don't want laminar flow in HEs, the fluid in the center of the line will stay in the center and won't transfer it's heat energy to the metal. With turbulent flow (in the heat exchanger, not the hose) Eddy currents will continually mix the fluid and force most every molecule against the metal, shedding enthalpy.

With the puking reservoir, use 2 tees and hose. Run a large hose from the HE to the pump, tee in a small diameter bypass leading in/out of the reservoir in the large hose. This will serve to degas and bleed the system.

Use high flow pumps.

Exactly.

ShelbyGT5HUN does not fully grasp these concepts and is making completely false statements.

The pot of boiling water is a terrible example, for a number of reasons: a lot of cookware is stainless steel with a low thermal conductivity, a pot of water has a tiny fraction of surface area for thermal transfer compared to an IC core, you have only natural convection inside the pot of water further slowing heat transfer, etc, etc. Acting as if temperature delta is the only thing driving the rate of energy transfer shows without question that he isn't well trained on this subject.

He also acts like cavitation in the IC system can only be caused by "too much pump". In the context of pumps available for this application, cavitation is a plumbing issue, and you can't have "too much pump".

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[Robert M]

I was thinking "cavitation" in the GT500 IC system was address with the bypass plumbing designed by the SVT Engineers (SVE) into the 2013 system, and before that (2007-2012) the full flow of the IC coolant through the degas reservoir could, and did introduce air into the coolant flow under certain driving conditions including hard braking and hard right turns, both of which can uncover the upper nipple of that IC reservoir and allow air and coolant to more easily mix..........Then some owners have attempted to add the 2013/14 type bypass plumbing to their 2007-2012 w/o the restrictor in the path to the reservoir, which "also" was one of those SVE things to minimize the coolant flow through that reservoir, thus minimizing the system coolant mixing with the air in the IC reservoir. Once the system is fully purged (degassed) of air, and there are no leaks, and the main coolant flow is "around" the degas bottle, how would air get into the coolant?

R

 

[CCS86]

Cavitation is a result of sharp enough change in direction, with fast enough flow rate, or inadequate flow on the inlet side of the pump, so that the water pressure drops enough to phase change into vapor. It can be very damaging to impeller blades if that's where it is occurring. This water vapor will turn straight back into water once the pressure increases only a moment later. It is a transient effect.

But that is a very different phenomenon than turbulence in the degas tank, introducing air bubbles through mixing. These bubbles will stay in the system, potentially getting chopped up finer and finer by the pump. This can have a huge impact on system performance, especially with an additive like water wetter that can contribute to foaming.

I'm a huge fan of running a degas bypass. If you aren't flowing enough to see turbulence in your degas tank, necessitating a bypass, then you definitely need more pump!

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[ArmyBombTech]

I know this is an old thread, but it’s still very relevant.

I have a 2012 GT500. I installed a 13/14 IC pump mounted in the same location as the 13/14's, and I'm also running the 13/14 bypass hose. I have a DOB Super Single HE which bigger than the 13/14 HE.

I also have a Davies Craig EBP40 IC pump sitting on my work bench. So here's my question... Would it benefit me running it in the system along with the 13/14 IC pump? If so, where should I put it in the system and how should I wire it?

 

[Robert M]

I know this is an old thread, but it’s still very relevant.

I have a 2012 GT500. I installed a 13/14 IC pump mounted in the same location as the 13/14's, and I'm also running the 13/14 bypass hose. I have a DOB Super Single HE which bigger than the 13/14 HE.

I also have a Davies Craig EBP40 IC pump sitting on my work bench. So here's my question... Would it benefit me running it in the system along with the 13/14 IC pump? If so, where should I put it in the system and how should I wire it?

This is just a guess on my part, but I would think that the "bottle necks" in the oem system (the smaller passage inlet and outlet nipples at the I/C) which limit the flow no matter what size pump is installed........plus if the pumps are not exactly the same gpm flow rate (matched), one would be pushing against the other, and the other would be sucking against the other, or at least that is what comes to mind when I think of double pumping this system. The flow engineers who frequent this site may correct me in my thoughts......

R

 

[cidsamuth]

My opinion on this, without real world, scientific data, is that more pump is better if you can avoid the cavitation issues mentioned. DOB points to the VW Bugatti, which has a crazy huge pump moving crazy amounts of fluid.

In my experience, running the bypass avoids the issues. I have the DOB SS also (along with the complete DOB IC), and I have the 13/14 pump. With my current plumbing, including a "straight line bypass" and a smaller hose going "up" to the degas bottle, I barely see movement in the bottle; instead most of the flow goes through the bypass. Seems to me to be a perfect scenario - the fluid mostly takes the path of least resistance, i.e. avoids the smaller hose and the fight against gravity to get to the degas and thus avoids creating bubbles.

Once it is released, I will go with the DOB POWA, which will likely double the flow. I would think I might see more movement in the degas then, but I theorize the fluid will still mostly go around. Then, I'll have all the benefits of faster flow and none of the theoretical problems of bubbling.

Theoretically, of course

 

[hRnYg0aTw33d]

My opinion on this, without real world, scientific data, is that more pump is better if you can avoid the cavitation issues mentioned. DOB points to the VW Bugatti, which has a crazy huge pump moving crazy amounts of fluid.

In my experience, running the bypass avoids the issues. I have the DOB SS also (along with the complete DOB IC), and I have the 13/14 pump. With my current plumbing, including a "straight line bypass" and a smaller hose going "up" to the degas bottle, I barely see movement in the bottle; instead most of the flow goes through the bypass. Seems to me to be a perfect scenario - the fluid mostly takes the path of least resistance, i.e. avoids the smaller hose and the fight against gravity to get to the degas and thus avoids creating bubbles.

Once it is released, I will go with the DOB POWA, which will likely double the flow. I would think I might see more movement in the degas then, but I theorize the fluid will still mostly go around. Then, I'll have all the benefits of faster flow and none of the theoretical problems of bubbling.

Theoretically, of course

are you running factory size hoses or 1"? I ask, because currently i am running a C&R fanless HE (bought it a while ago before i knew about DOB) with the bypass, and 13/14 pump. This was a massive improvement over my stock 07 pump and exchanger, however, ideally id like to change out the C&R for the DOB Super Single. So the setup would be, Super Single, 13/14 pump with bypass. standard size hose lines, and OEM intercooler. I know the stock intercooler and hose size is a pretty big hinderance on our cars, but i was to maximize the cooling power that i can do without having to re-pipe everything to 1".

 

[Robert M]

are you running factory size hoses or 1"? I ask, because currently i am running a C&R fanless HE (bought it a while ago before i knew about DOB) with the bypass, and 13/14 pump. This was a massive improvement over my stock 07 pump and exchanger, however, ideally id like to change out the C&R for the DOB Super Single. So the setup would be, Super Single, 13/14 pump with bypass. standard size hose lines, and OEM intercooler. I know the stock intercooler and hose size is a pretty big hinderance on our cars, but i was to maximize the cooling power that i can do without having to re-pipe everything to 1".

The main bottle neck to the GT500 S/C cooling system is the inlet/outlet nipples inside the adapter on the front of the intake. Those o-ringed nipples are .55" i.d. or just slightly over 1/2" on the inside of that adapter, so any increase in hose plumbing before and after that I/C adapter is going to be bottle necked at that .55" in and out at the I/C. There was an owner on here who enlarged in i.d. of those two o-ringed nipples, but there was not enough room/thickness to get to 3/4", which is basically the rest of the oem system flow.......and even 3/4" is not up to the task according to DoB and their test data......

R

 

[cidsamuth]

I'm running 1" hoses .... except for the 3/4" hose running up to the degas. The bypass remains 1" to encourage the fluid going that way.

 

[Juvehab]

starting this mod now on my 06 with DOB set up with SS HE. Is there a list of parts needed to do this with the 13/14 GT500 pump. Not sure if I should go with the larger tank or keep the small one?

 

[Robert M]

starting this mod now on my 06 with DOB set up with SS HE. Is there a list of parts needed to do this with the 13/14 GT500 pump. Not sure if I should go with the larger tank or keep the small one?

When you say starting this mod on your "06", do you mean 07-09?

R

 

[Juvehab]

Robert I have a 06 GT with the department of boost set up with a m122 blower. I am installing their SS HE and 2013/14 pump.

 

[Robert M]

Robert I have a 06 GT with the department of boost set up with a m122 blower. I am installing their SS HE and 2013/14 pump.

Ok........and I may have seen you mention that previously in this thread or another thread. I am not familiar with any mounting options other than the oem.......Catmonkey (John) will have to steer you toward alternative mounting options for that pump.

R

 

[Catmonkey]

I'm running 1" hoses .... except for the 3/4" hose running up to the degas. The bypass remains 1" to encourage the fluid going that way.

I hope you've plumbed a by-pass or using a degas with larger inlets and outlets. Ford uses an aluminum insert inside the molded plastic inlet and outlet, which neck the i.d. to .5". It's a another couple of restrictive passages.

 

[Catmonkey]

I know this is an old thread, but it’s still very relevant.

I have a 2012 GT500. I installed a 13/14 IC pump mounted in the same location as the 13/14's, and I'm also running the 13/14 bypass hose. I have a DOB Super Single HE which bigger than the 13/14 HE.

I also have a Davies Craig EBP40 IC pump sitting on my work bench. So here's my question... Would it benefit me running it in the system along with the 13/14 IC pump? If so, where should I put it in the system and how should I wire it?

The 13-14 pump has slightly higher flow rates than the EBP40. On an otherwise stock intercooler system the 13-14 might be good for 1 GPM over the DC unit. Here's a thread I posted a couple years ago on cost effective improvements to the stock intercooler system, including wiring the 13-14 pump for maximum capacity. I will say they're marginal improvements because you can only move liquid so fast through .5" - .75" piping regardless how powerful the pump may be. I have some different opinions since I did that.

I see mention of bigger more powerful pumps. The EMP pump would probably develop pressures beyond 20 psi on the stock intercooler system. The crossover tubes in the manifold are only o-ringed. You'll get 10 GPM out of it, maybe, but if you want to see real improvements you need to double that performance. To do that is going to take at least 7/8" i.d. throughout the system..... including the intercooler. 7/8" is the i.d. of most 1" o.d. fitting sgiven typical wall thicknesses. This will drop the pressure for the larger pumps. Obtaining high GPM is not a cheap undertaking. Don't believe me, get a flow meter and see what your actual GPM measures.

 

[cidsamuth]

I hope you've plumbed a by-pass or using a degas with larger inlets and outlets. Ford uses an aluminum insert inside the molded plastic inlet and outlet, which neck the i.d. to .5". It's a another couple of restrictive passages.

Wut? Like I said, I have a 1" hose bypassing the degas all together. Up to the degas, I'm running 3/4" hose -- its sees very little flow because most goes around via the 1" bypass.

And yes, my degas is aluminum anyway.

 

[Federico Garza]

This is just a guess on my part, but I would think that the "bottle necks" in the oem system (the smaller passage inlet and outlet nipples at the I/C) which limit the flow no matter what size pump is installed, would limit coolant flow........plus if the pumps are not exactly the same gpm flow rate (matched), one would be pushing against the other, and the other would be sucking against the other, or at least that is what comes to mind when I think of double pumping this system. The flow engineers who frequent this site may correct me in my thoughts......

R

Whipple is doing this on the 2020 gt500 , claiming 40% more waterflow, very interesting...

Whipple Auxiliary Intercooler Pump (2020 Shelby GT500)