So, Turbo advice

T3naci0usT

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Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for. Another question will I have to go back to stock headers, or can I keep my longtubes?
 

Nightmare302

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Anyone who says my 76/88 comes in instantly is a bold face liar if they are running a stick. No offense but our 4.6 cars are very very small V8 motors and are not exactly torque beasts.

As someone who has owned and built a handful of each type this path is destined for failure. To simply imply that turbo is better in every aspect is naive.

First, turbo you HAVE to go tubular suspension, all the "affordable" aka cheap tubular kits rattle clunk and ride like horse crap and all the "affordable" turbo kits use these crap tubular setups. (I.E. on3/upr setup) The only kit I've owned that rode like factory was the hellion kit with the MM k setup.

Second, belt problems/shredding belts is a problem. Turbo cars just have different ones. Like blowing out a turbo seal or an intercooler pipe off. Waste gate sticking open and wasting an engine. Each setup has issues to blindly say the s/c belt is an issue and not list any of the possible turbo issues is biased.

Third, a 2.3 whipple is an aged technology. A TVS blower will perform much better and it's efficiency range is maximized in the 600-650 range.

Fourth, the key to cooling mods is opening up the neck/nipple of the intercooler to increase flow. That and a larger heat exchanger and you are no different than running an aftermarket water to air turbo setup.

On a stick car, the TVS car will be more "fun" on the street and will beat the turbo car most of the time simply because of the lag/boost drop off. You can add a "no lift shift" box but you'll just be harsher on your stuff and still lose.

The turbo car will be significantly more costly to build.

If this is a true "fun" street car the blower will be fair be the most fun option. There are COUNTLESS turbo cars on this forum that get built, people cut corners use a stick try to make a big number and hate them then dump them.

You can't use long tubes with a turbo kit, the turbo kit runs the manifolds forward to mount the turbo in the bay. Hellion kits used factory manifolds most others supply their own manifolds.

If you don't know that long tubes won't work with a turbo kit (which is fine) I suggest you spend more time doing some research as you clearly are lacking some information.

You clearly are deadset on a turbo kit and no amount of logic will deter you. So make sure when you make the decision you know what you are doing, all too often people try to do this on their own and end up hating their car/crushing their budget and selling to recover the cost or to start over.
 

10secondrx7

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So from anyone who has a turbo, what's the spool like? Do you happen to know when you're hitting full boost? I've never driven a turbo V8. The stock blower seems to make full boost pretty fast, but it's a small blower.

Does anyone here have a larger blower they can chime in with?

Edit: Just noticed you have a 3.4 whipple and a twin turbo, how do they compare?

I'd imagine the twins are going to spool slower with each only getting half the exhaust. Do you have a twin scroll setup?
 
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Nightmare302

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The best "street" setup turbo with a stick I've run is a 76/75 precision with the .81 AR housing. Full boost hit around 4k with boost coming on mid 2000's. My 3.4 whipple pegged 28 pounds before 2k and made over 600 ft/lbs by 2,500 rpm.
 

10secondrx7

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The best "street" setup turbo with a stick I've run is a 76/75 precision with the .81 AR housing. Full boost hit around 4k with boost coming on mid 2000's. My 3.4 whipple pegged 28 pounds before 2k and made over 600 ft/lbs by 2,500 rpm.

How much boost was full boost for the turbo? Was it a twinscroll/true twinscroll setup? That seems much slower that I was expecting honestly. Like, that's about how fast an rx7 spools.

That blower sounds pretty awesome too. Do you have a dyno of it?
 

Nightmare302

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That's not a twinscroll housing. A twinscroll would improve spool, my car also had a hellion kit which uses some weird routing and has a slower spool than other newer kits. A proper kit can spool faster. An RX7 does not get to full boost at 4k on a 76mm turbo, that's like when they START making boost lol.

I gave all the paperwork including dyno charts to the new owner, though he's on this site so maybe he'll drop by. I'll check later to see if any are still saved on my computer.
 

10secondrx7

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Full is around ~5k. They flow much more than their horsepower would suggest.

Which sounds pretty awful, other than the fact that that's only like ~25 in first.
These cars would be undrivable without their silly 4.1 rear end.

4k still seems awful though. Was yours the hellion single?
 

Juiced46

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Nightmare pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

On a stock engine most 76s will see full boost around the 4000rpm range.

My 76 with a stick in a .81 housing would be full boost @ 4k. When I swapped to a .96 housing it pushed it up to around 4300.

Now you may think that is awful, but to me it is actually not. With the correct gearing it actually works really well.

You can use a big blower make 700-800rwtq @ low RPMS, power comes on instant, but what also happens at that power level is traction is going to be very difficult. So having all that instant TQ that soon is not always a good thing. Its all personal preference. With a turbo coming in at 4000rpms and not a huge TQ hit in an instant, its easier to manage, especially on the street.

If your turbo makes full boost at 4000rpms. You do not go wide open at 2500 RPMS. You start around 3500 rpms and it will spool "quickly" not instant like a twin screw, that is going to be damn near impossible, but it will come on pretty fast. Match that with the correct tire size and gearing, you have a VERY useable powerband.

I agree with Nightmare that if you do not know if you can use longtubes with a turbo, maybe you should consider a TVS. The pros and cons have already been listed so I do not need to repeat it. Everyone wants to make 800-1000rwhp because they saw a youtube video which makes it look easy. What people fail to see is what it takes to get to that level and make it WORK CORRECTLY. That is the key. Going with cheap parts, cutting corners on a turbo build, used stuff that is hacked, etc etc. You will hate going turbo. If do it right and spend the $$ IMO it is the best thing to do!

A 76/88 will not spool fast/instant, that is just insane.
 

10secondrx7

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In all honesty, I was trying to get him to just get a turbo and then get the manifolds and everything custom fabbed. However, I'm not familiar with the pricing for Cobras. I know for rx7s you can get some manifolds from Gleason, one of the best at what he does, for just over a grand. And that's with true twinscroll support, though you then have to buy two wastegates, it spools very quickly.

I feel like he'd be well off with something like an sxe s366. 76mm is pretty big.

I'm not familiar with Cobra pricing for similar things. I know for my DD vette, there's a bad vette tax on anything nice.
 

Juiced46

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In all honesty, I was trying to get him to just get a turbo and then get the manifolds and everything custom fabbed. However, I'm not familiar with the pricing for Cobras. I know for rx7s you can get some manifolds from Gleason, one of the best at what he does, for just over a grand. And that's with true twinscroll support, though you then have to buy two wastegates, it spools very quickly.

I feel like he'd be well off with something like an sxe s366. 76mm is pretty big.

I'm not familiar with Cobra pricing for similar things. I know for my DD vette, there's a bad vette tax on anything nice.

Alot of people start off with a CG Fab hotside, which comes with manifolds, up pipe and a starter down pipe. That hotside depending on options usually goes for $1500-$2000. Then you have to add in wastegate(s), BOV, intercooler, finish exhaust fab, tubular suspension, cold side, turbo, etc etc

Most places, atleast around here, to make 1 off custom exhaust manifolds are in the $3000 range for a really good quality set.

To do a single turbo kit right on an 03/04 Cobra, I would budget in the range of $7000-$10,000 roughly This does not factor in the offset of selling stock parts that come off. Alot of people like to argue that point. The price will range depending on turbo, wastegate, BOV choice, boost controller, intake manifold etc. All that can swing the price quite a bit. Also small things like heat wrap, coating etc. Dont forget, other things that may be needed, correct suspension, clutch/input shaft upgrades, fuel system, tuning, tires, gearing, chassis components etc etc. It all adds up quick.

A "cheap kit" like an On3 which I would not recommend, you can do it cheaper, but you get what you pay for and we are back to my statement from my last post about hating it.

I ran a Hellion kit for many years and also installed many on customers cars. The out of the box kit is "OK" however it benefits from some improvements. It worked well for me after the necessary changes were made to the kit to fix its flaws and was very reliable and fit very well. Not the best kit on the market, certainly not the cheapest, but great quality, reliable and long lasting using good parts.
 

10secondrx7

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$7000 wouldn't be much more than the Hellion.

On the other hand, going Hellion would probably be a safe bet, and he could always swap out some of the odd parts to help with spooling and other things later I guess.

What's with having to change the suspension for a turbo Cobra?

Also, thanks for the really helpful replies man.
 

Nightmare302

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You have to go tubular k member due to the lack of room for the manifolds/up/down pipes. Some kits and k members let you use factory a-arms. Some use tubular a-arms and most tubular a-arms require coil overs.
 

s351

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The worst thing about the hellion kit is the upr k member, it just rides a lot harsher and is clunky. And as juiced said needs to be upgraded.
 

GNBRETT

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some good points!

but I'm not referring to ANY Turbo kit I'm referring to a CPR Turbo kit. it comes with a tubular setup and nothn rattles at all. maybe on the junk kits they do but never owned one myself.

buddy had an on3 kit and says it was the worst investment he ever made but I'm sure plenty of others have had great success.

the seals on a Turbo are steal piston rings and I have had Turbo cars and bikes for 20 years and never had a Turbo seal issue. if there is shaft play it can cause an issue with the ring but if its balanced properly that will never happen. Intercooler pipe with Vband never comes off but ur right that can be an issue I forgot to mention.

never had a waste gate stick open but yea I guess thats possible as well. blew the baffle out once in my WG and was losing boost. happened once in 20 years so yea thats possible to.

a stick VMP will NOT beat a Turbo car with a GOOD driver but ur right most of the ppl driving will probably lose and the extra power probably won't matter.

Turbo cars need auto's otherwise u jus leave too much on the table.



Anyone who says my 76/88 comes in instantly is a bold face liar if they are running a stick. No offense but our 4.6 cars are very very small V8 motors and are not exactly torque beasts.

As someone who has owned and built a handful of each type this path is destined for failure. To simply imply that turbo is better in every aspect is naive.

First, turbo you HAVE to go tubular suspension, all the "affordable" aka cheap tubular kits rattle clunk and ride like horse crap and all the "affordable" turbo kits use these crap tubular setups. (I.E. on3/upr setup) The only kit I've owned that rode like factory was the hellion kit with the MM k setup.

Second, belt problems/shredding belts is a problem. Turbo cars just have different ones. Like blowing out a turbo seal or an intercooler pipe off. Waste gate sticking open and wasting an engine. Each setup has issues to blindly say the s/c belt is an issue and not list any of the possible turbo issues is biased.

Third, a 2.3 whipple is an aged technology. A TVS blower will perform much better and it's efficiency range is maximized in the 600-650 range.

Fourth, the key to cooling mods is opening up the neck/nipple of the intercooler to increase flow. That and a larger heat exchanger and you are no different than running an aftermarket water to air turbo setup.

On a stick car, the TVS car will be more "fun" on the street and will beat the turbo car most of the time simply because of the lag/boost drop off. You can add a "no lift shift" box but you'll just be harsher on your stuff and still lose.

The turbo car will be significantly more costly to build.

If this is a true "fun" street car the blower will be fair be the most fun option. There are COUNTLESS turbo cars on this forum that get built, people cut corners use a stick try to make a big number and hate them then dump them.

You can't use long tubes with a turbo kit, the turbo kit runs the manifolds forward to mount the turbo in the bay. Hellion kits used factory manifolds most others supply their own manifolds.

If you don't know that long tubes won't work with a turbo kit (which is fine) I suggest you spend more time doing some research as you clearly are lacking some information.

You clearly are deadset on a turbo kit and no amount of logic will deter you. So make sure when you make the decision you know what you are doing, all too often people try to do this on their own and end up hating their car/crushing their budget and selling to recover the cost or to start over.
 

Nightmare302

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Turbo oil seals blow all the time, especially if you own a precision turbo. I blew past the seals twice in a single season with the claiming everything was fine.
 

Juiced46

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$7000 wouldn't be much more than the Hellion.

On the other hand, going Hellion would probably be a safe bet, and he could always swap out some of the odd parts to help with spooling and other things later I guess.

What's with having to change the suspension for a turbo Cobra?

Also, thanks for the really helpful replies man.

Hellion would be a safe bet, however, it will cost you more in the long run if you decide to modify the kit.

Where as if you go with something like CG, you just fab it up from the get go.

The Hellion kit, are bare minimum needs to be converted to blow through right off the bat. The flaws with the Hellion kit are. Stock manifolds, small 2.5" piping and intercooler, 3" downpipe, small wastegate and not optimal gate placement.

On the flip side. With all the bottle necks of that kit, I have gone mid 9s @ 140+ on pump gas with that setup without doing anything other then converting to blow through. When you plan on making big $$$s the Hellion kit will hold you back. Then by the time you modify everything, you are in it for more money then if you just went straight to a CG hot side and fabbed the rest from the beginning

some good points!

but I'm not referring to ANY Turbo kit I'm referring to a CPR Turbo kit. it comes with a tubular setup and nothn rattles at all. maybe on the junk kits they do but never owned one myself.

Well now it makes more sense. We are talking about stock heads/cams/intake 4.6 4Vs with a stick. You are comparing a 5.0L Coyote with an Auto. There is a big difference.....
 

nvrstsfied

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Alot of people start off with a CG Fab hotside, which comes with manifolds, up pipe and a starter down pipe. That hotside depending on options usually goes for $1500-$2000. Then you have to add in wastegate(s), BOV, intercooler, finish exhaust fab, tubular suspension, cold side, turbo, etc etc

Most places, atleast around here, to make 1 off custom exhaust manifolds are in the $3000 range for a really good quality set.

To do a single turbo kit right on an 03/04 Cobra, I would budget in the range of $7000-$10,000 roughly This does not factor in the offset of selling stock parts that come off. Alot of people like to argue that point. The price will range depending on turbo, wastegate, BOV choice, boost controller, intake manifold etc. All that can swing the price quite a bit. Also small things like heat wrap, coating etc. Dont forget, other things that may be needed, correct suspension, clutch/input shaft upgrades, fuel system, tuning, tires, gearing, chassis components etc etc. It all adds up quick.

A "cheap kit" like an On3 which I would not recommend, you can do it cheaper, but you get what you pay for and we are back to my statement from my last post about hating it.

I ran a Hellion kit for many years and also installed many on customers cars. The out of the box kit is "OK" however it benefits from some improvements. It worked well for me after the necessary changes were made to the kit to fix its flaws and was very reliable and fit very well. Not the best kit on the market, certainly not the cheapest, but great quality, reliable and long lasting using good parts.
This guy is pretty much right on. My turbo Cobra just recently got finished, and it was a pricey endeavor to do it the right way. CG fab hot side, customized cold side with bigger IC from a Hellion kit with a Gen 1 BB Precision 7675. The Hellion kit the car came with just wasn't efficient for more than 650-700 hp. I'm sure guys will argue with me on this on here giving countless examples of people making more, but spool/efficiency/etc were my goal in a street car with a manual trans. Not trying to build a track car or drag whore.

I'm on a 11.5 pound spring on the 7675 and made 650s hp/tq. 874/825 on 23 psi. Started to get spark blow out and needed a bigger spring so didn't bother going further for now considering I can't even say I can handle this type of power on the streets yet. MMR boss 302 block with every option, turbo cams, ID2000s, Haltech 2500 with E85. Duty is at like 58%. Full boost just after 4k.

It lights the tires up in 3rd when the boost comes in.

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nvrstsfied

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Also, space is a real issue from a clearance standpoint as these guys said, so the tubular K was a given.

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Nightmare302

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How are you getting spark blow out with the halltech elite? Their booster should make stock coils support well over what you are pushing. Jake runs it at over 1400rwhp.
 

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