I guess I'm going to have to buy a 2013-2014 GT500 and wait a couple years for the 2019 to be added to the garage. If I'm going to drop 100k or close to it on a car then it better be red and Italian.
GT500 Will Kill GT350 Prices, No?
- Thread starter Kaneda
- Start date
I'm in the minority that thinks Ford will not do this.
Ford already has an icon car and Ford is not a boutique manufacturer. There are plenty of healthy niche manufacturers (Roush, Shelby, Hennessey, etc) that specialize in low production, high margin sales.
you don't have to have an MBA with a focus in marketing to know that profits = sales numbers times margin.
If you're going to sell a low number of something, you'd better have a really high margin. Conversely, if you're going to have a low margin on something, you'd better sell a lot. Nothing earth shattering here.
There are companies that make money and employ lots of people by selling a couple of yachts a year. Conversely, there are companies that simply sell thousands and millions of orders of low cost, low margin products.
I don't think Ford is going to put the cost of the 500 up in the realm of MANY other competitors and try to sell just a few. Maybe, I guess one could argue that their development and tooling costs are reduced in that they have a majority of the components already established (brakes and wheels and such from the 350 development, 10 speed auto from the JV with GM, TVS from previous developments, etc). So if the 500 is simply a new combination of already established/invested components, their production costs will be lower. (but that just lends itself to a lower price, to chase more sales).
I guess what I'm saying is that is it better to sell a zillion mustang GT's at a quarter of the margins or to sell a handful of 500s at a few times the margin (at most)?
I happen to think that the 500 will be square in the price range of the R. I just can't see Ford selling a lot of 500's for MSRP's North of $90k. There's too much competition from a whole host of other manufacturers and offerings and at the end of the day, you can't totally rewrite the public perception of "mustang" which is what you just eluded to. There's not a large segment of the US or foreign sales market that can afford a $90k car and even less that will drop cash on a mustang at that price. Granted there are die hard Ford nuts and mustang enthusiasts, but the more you zero in on these niche markets, the more the numbers dwindle of your potential consumers.
It's a neat thought and interesting discussion, but only time will tell.
Ford builds quality top dog cars/trucks and it shows on resale.
13/14 Values for the 500 and the Raptor are still relatively high. Even with the newer models/generations out.
Sure, 350's may drop in value some, like 99% of production cars, but they would still be in good shape compared to other sports cars out there.
It is a valid excuse to say the 350 will have a dedicated following even with the 500 coming out soon. Two different beasts, even if the 500 will finally be able to handle well.
13/14 Values for the 500 and the Raptor are still relatively high. Even with the newer models/generations out.
Sure, 350's may drop in value some, like 99% of production cars, but they would still be in good shape compared to other sports cars out there.
It is a valid excuse to say the 350 will have a dedicated following even with the 500 coming out soon. Two different beasts, even if the 500 will finally be able to handle well.
I'm guessing you were making a joke. '11/'12 GT500s are still in the $30Ks. No way in the world a newer, more desirable GT350 is going to dip that low that fast, except maybe a Tech Pack GT350.
Expect the base price to start at $70K. And yes, dealers are going to plop ADMs on the hood, but, if history repeats, they won't last more than about 9 months.
5.2L CPC TVS2650, 10:1 compression ratio, and 12psi boost. It's not going to be the same experience as the GT350. There's a lot to be admired in a high HP, NA engine, and there are plenty of people who will still prefer the GT350 over the GT500.
No it doesn't, but it will be. Starting price of $70K+, which is ZL1 1LE area. An R/KR variant will probably be starting at $80K, and the ADMs on them will be through the roof like on the GT350R. Anyway, look at it like the 911R/GT3 versus the Turbo S. The turbo S doesn't affect 911R or GT3 values despite being faster [in a straight line.] Porsche guys love themselves some high-strung, naturally aspirated engines.
We're not "hoping much higher." We're looking at the reality of it. The GT500 is going to be priced higher than the R. Just looking at the expected equipment list makes it clear; much larger brakes, 20" wheels/tires, additional transmission options, a blower, etc. You're not going to get all that for "free." As far as the "value" of the Rs taking a hit from the GT500. I personally doubt it. I did the math in a post several months ago. I believe total R production came out to 0.01% of total Mustang production during the R's run. Most enthusiasts will never get the opportunity to even see a GT350R in person, much less drive or own one. It will still be a highly coveted car even after the GT500 is released. When has an R car ever tanked in value? People are still asking, and probably getting, +/-$50K for the '00R. It's original MSRP was $54,995. Eighteen years later, it's still hovering around MSRP or higher. The 23 year old '95 Cobra R still has asking prices in the high $20Ks and more. MSRP on that one was $37K. A '93 R has [I guess recently] sold for $80K. MSRP was $25K. (That does seem a bit ridiculous, but if I had the spare coin, I'd pay a pretty penny for one, too.)
I haven’t been around much but, man it’s a little depressing that the most active thread in here is a pointless inflammatory one started by a complete troll.
I have met some very cool real people here over the years. We can do better than this. The Gt350 is and will likely continue to be the baddest all around mustang ever. Blower cars are a whole nuther thing. I want to talk GT350s.
How about some tech or track articles?
I have met some very cool real people here over the years. We can do better than this. The Gt350 is and will likely continue to be the baddest all around mustang ever. Blower cars are a whole nuther thing. I want to talk GT350s.
How about some tech or track articles?
A couple points we all missed.
1. Ford Forum, who cares if OP has a car at all, bottom line, he is troll.
2. What GROWN Man is compelled to prove something to the internet, youre debating with a child. Ancient Chinese proverb (or a fortune cookie) says when a wise man argues with a fool listeners can not tell them apart.
2. Rather the 500 comes out or not, rather the price is high or low, there is ALWAYS someone that wants buy a older model. This will keep the price within traditional market perimeters for depreciating assets (plus wearing a SVT/Ford Performance badge). That will keep the price fairly competitive. I.e. clean low mile Terminators are still high twenties, low 30's.
3. I have had Lightning, Termies, Gt500, Gt350. I feel like Ford played the market/buyers quite well. I don't think the 350 is as special as the hype was.
4. Lastly and certainly not least. Anyone that can afford to pay 50k-75k plus for a toy car really doesnt have time for that clown OP.
Nothing else to see hear, keep moving!
1. Ford Forum, who cares if OP has a car at all, bottom line, he is troll.
2. What GROWN Man is compelled to prove something to the internet, youre debating with a child. Ancient Chinese proverb (or a fortune cookie) says when a wise man argues with a fool listeners can not tell them apart.
2. Rather the 500 comes out or not, rather the price is high or low, there is ALWAYS someone that wants buy a older model. This will keep the price within traditional market perimeters for depreciating assets (plus wearing a SVT/Ford Performance badge). That will keep the price fairly competitive. I.e. clean low mile Terminators are still high twenties, low 30's.
3. I have had Lightning, Termies, Gt500, Gt350. I feel like Ford played the market/buyers quite well. I don't think the 350 is as special as the hype was.
4. Lastly and certainly not least. Anyone that can afford to pay 50k-75k plus for a toy car really doesnt have time for that clown OP.
Nothing else to see hear, keep moving!
What’s interesting is the Bobby and Phil show on the marquee
Shared this in the GT500 section, but thought you 350 guys would like to see a little Demon
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What a waste. The one thing that the Demon/Hellcat had going for it, the ONLY thing that made it unique was that the Charger is a roomy passenger car that is moderately fast in a straight line.
The challenger is a pig. The charger is a pig, but at least has reason to be.
There's no need for a 2 door coupe to weigh 4400 lbs. Even from a drag/straight line perspective, it's counterproductive.
You can get mustangs and Camaros from various dealers who feature dealer specific "packages" with full warranty, on PUMP gas (not race fuel) that will drag the demon/hellcat for 2/3 of the cost and go around a track much better in the process.
Again, the only thing that differentiated the Demon/Hellcat was the charger version and the whole "I can drop my kids off at school and go to the drag strip" feature. With the charger, you get a 4400 lb pig that does OKAY in a straight line and pay way too much for the factory warranty (compared to other platforms).
Most of us graduate from straight line to a whole car concept at some point. Back in your seat acceleration is obviously the biggest part of a performance car experience.
But I compare street cars that can't brake or turn to guys who go to the driving range but can't chip or putt or put together a round of golf to save their lives.
I'll always love American muscle and I'm not a Euro/Ricer douche who has the same tired arguments, but can't we get a Dodge 2 door that doesn't weigh nearly as much as a pickup truck? Even if you don't like turning, the extra weight just kills what could be an awesome drag car.
i thought you had left and everyone was happy?? go somewhere else
While I do like them, don’t know how many people you are going to impress with a Demon in here. I have a 2017 Viper GTS-R, but I never talk about it on here because this forum is mainly focused on MUSTANGS.
I agree. Having said that a Viper GTS is a noteworthy car.
I'm not impressed by an 800 horsepower pig that does mid 10's in the quarter. As I stated above, the ONLY thing it had going for it was the 4 doors/sedan. The challenger removes that feature and what you're left with is an 800 hp"drag" focused car that doesn't really go all that fast in the 1/4 (given it's cost, power and race fuel), doesn't handle or turn very well and isn't a grocery getter.
And not to be a "ricer" but a low 6k redline in 2018 is like 30 year old tech.
Why can't they spin it higher? I'm all for big displacement, but it is too much to ask they spend the extra $ on the springs and valves and rev to 7k?
When you can buy a mustang or a Camaro, dump $20k into it and have a car that will scorch a demon in the 1/4, absolutely rape it around a track, arguably LOOK better and still end up being cheaper (and yes, with a warranty) the car doesn't make much sense to me.
"Venom kills Demons"...Isn't that what the head of Ford marketing said about the upcoming GT500?
I guess we'll see...I think the Demon is a cool car. Dodge did something different, they went for it, and continue to do things no one else tries. I respect that.
I also respect Ford for what they did with the GT350. Its a special car now, and it'll be a special car 30 years from now. I don't think Ford set out to make it the fastest, but they definitely made it special.
I also think what Ford did to the '17 models will hurt ALL '16 values, even the track pack. There are so many people out there who could care less if it won't go into limp mode after 15 minutes of hard track driving, more than they care about having a car with nav, leather, less punishing seats (that have heat and AC). When Ford offered it all in one car, they hurt the '16 in general, but in the end, not that much. What makes the car special is far more than diff/trans coolers or cooled seats.
I guess we'll see...I think the Demon is a cool car. Dodge did something different, they went for it, and continue to do things no one else tries. I respect that.
I also respect Ford for what they did with the GT350. Its a special car now, and it'll be a special car 30 years from now. I don't think Ford set out to make it the fastest, but they definitely made it special.
I also think what Ford did to the '17 models will hurt ALL '16 values, even the track pack. There are so many people out there who could care less if it won't go into limp mode after 15 minutes of hard track driving, more than they care about having a car with nav, leather, less punishing seats (that have heat and AC). When Ford offered it all in one car, they hurt the '16 in general, but in the end, not that much. What makes the car special is far more than diff/trans coolers or cooled seats.
You're the first person I've seen argue this point. Ford made an error in trying to cater to what they thought was an educated buying public. They should/could have avoided the resultant bickering by mandating that all GT350's were equipped with transmission and axle coolers. Mitigating the issue in '17 was a good move, one that should have been made such that '15 and '16 models would have been so equipped as well.
Probably...But could Ford have known how many people would want the coolers? Don't forget the Mustang and GT500s before it also had performance packs that offered items like this, no one cried foul....
At least not until Ford decided to add them to ALL models. I think this was done because some of the cars went into LM while NOT on a track.
Ford definitely should do something to mitigate this. Most want Ford to install the coolers to the '15 and '16s free of charge. That might be a bit much. Anyone with a '15 probably doesn't care because the ultra low build number, they'll always retain their value. For the '16s, the only people really bitching are the ones who have tried to race their Tech.
In the end, the cost is probably less than the cost of owners who might never choose Ford again over their bitterness.
At least not until Ford decided to add them to ALL models. I think this was done because some of the cars went into LM while NOT on a track.
Ford definitely should do something to mitigate this. Most want Ford to install the coolers to the '15 and '16s free of charge. That might be a bit much. Anyone with a '15 probably doesn't care because the ultra low build number, they'll always retain their value. For the '16s, the only people really bitching are the ones who have tried to race their Tech.
In the end, the cost is probably less than the cost of owners who might never choose Ford again over their bitterness.
Its a very very safe bet the dealers will mark up the new GT500 to 20k to almost 50k over MFRP. Historically they do it for every new model. Closer to the release date you buy it the more you will pay.
End of this year will be the sweet spot to buy a used GT350. I am. I can wait for a GT500. Patience is more $ in my pocket for future mods.
Remember the newest and greatest King of the Road GT500's selling for 125k!! Or the 2000 Cobra R selling for double. 07 GT500s for 15k+ over sticker. It will be at least a year before the prices are normalized.
Only car in the last two decades to sell over MFRP and then increase to well over it over time was the Ford GT.
End of this year will be the sweet spot to buy a used GT350. I am. I can wait for a GT500. Patience is more $ in my pocket for future mods.
Remember the newest and greatest King of the Road GT500's selling for 125k!! Or the 2000 Cobra R selling for double. 07 GT500s for 15k+ over sticker. It will be at least a year before the prices are normalized.
Only car in the last two decades to sell over MFRP and then increase to well over it over time was the Ford GT.
Is that statement limited to Ford (or domestic) vehicles? If not, that's not true at all.
There won’t be an “R” version of the GT500. It’s upgraded version will be done through packages like our current GT350 tech packages are done
After a long absence I am back with a new GT350 - and still have my 520 rwhp 03 Cobra.
I bought the GT350 to go road racing. It is the perfect tool - 500+ hp, NA, 8,200 rpm, perfectly balanced. A scalple for the track. I have had 600 plus HP supercharged track cars, they just are not the same. I am excited for the GT500 - for other people. It is not what I want. It will be heavier, and prodcue more heat (which will require more cooling, heavier still). All to produce more power that I neither want nor need. If you are really a road racer, and not a dragster, you will know that 500 hp is plenty. Any more is scary, and you are a danger to yourself and others. Very few of us have the road racing skills to really handle even 500 hp. Go look at the reviews of the experts who will tell you if you want to road race a Corvettte, buy the Grand Sport over the Z06 or ZR1. If you want a Camaro - you should buy the SS 1LE over the LS1. Road racing is about precision, balance, dynamics, and managing heat. All of which the GT350 does perfectly.
The GT350 is the car I have been waiting for for 20 years. It is perfect for my application. Sure the GT500 will have more power and therefore be faster, but will it be better for road racing? I doubt it. At least not for me.
So bring on the GT500! An awesome car for people who want 700 hp. And leave the GT350 to us hard core road racers. Honestly if they stop making the GT350 in favor of the GT500, there is a possibility that the GT350 will maintain its value for this very reason - there are a lot of people for whom it is exactly what they want, and the GT500 will not be a replacement - it is something else entirely.
I bought the GT350 to go road racing. It is the perfect tool - 500+ hp, NA, 8,200 rpm, perfectly balanced. A scalple for the track. I have had 600 plus HP supercharged track cars, they just are not the same. I am excited for the GT500 - for other people. It is not what I want. It will be heavier, and prodcue more heat (which will require more cooling, heavier still). All to produce more power that I neither want nor need. If you are really a road racer, and not a dragster, you will know that 500 hp is plenty. Any more is scary, and you are a danger to yourself and others. Very few of us have the road racing skills to really handle even 500 hp. Go look at the reviews of the experts who will tell you if you want to road race a Corvettte, buy the Grand Sport over the Z06 or ZR1. If you want a Camaro - you should buy the SS 1LE over the LS1. Road racing is about precision, balance, dynamics, and managing heat. All of which the GT350 does perfectly.
The GT350 is the car I have been waiting for for 20 years. It is perfect for my application. Sure the GT500 will have more power and therefore be faster, but will it be better for road racing? I doubt it. At least not for me.
So bring on the GT500! An awesome car for people who want 700 hp. And leave the GT350 to us hard core road racers. Honestly if they stop making the GT350 in favor of the GT500, there is a possibility that the GT350 will maintain its value for this very reason - there are a lot of people for whom it is exactly what they want, and the GT500 will not be a replacement - it is something else entirely.
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