I expect to see some 997 GT2 RS and 991.2 Turbo S mentions when the reviews start coming out. I will be shocked and disappointed if it comes out as "just a GT350 with a blower slapped on it" as some naysayers insist will be the case. It's really a ridiculous notion. If that were true, they could've/would've released the car a couple years ago.
Anyone else frustrated with Ford over the next GT500?
- Thread starter biminiLX
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I expect to see some 997 GT2 RS and 991.2 Turbo S mentions when the reviews start coming out. I will be shocked and disappointed if it comes out as "just a GT350 with a blower slapped on it" as some naysayers insist will be the case. It's really a ridiculous notion. If that were true, they could've/would've released the car a couple years ago.
I tend to agree. In my perspective, Ford has something significant up their sleeve with this car that will be much more than a GT350 with a blower. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see different levels of the car similar to the GT350; GT500 and GT500R (KR)?
Either way I don't think Ford will disappoint with the performance aspect of this vehicle. I don't see them willing to take a back seat to Dodge or Chevrolet. The only caveat is, what will be the cost to the consumer?
So what youre telling me is, the top dog mustang is no longer a muscle car for the common man. Its a GT car for the driving-glove wearing Euro-douche crowd.
I think, technically, the Mustang has never been a Muscle car. It has always been a Pony car. In fact, the Mustang is the first Pony and is defined as compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image.
Comrade!
When has the “Top Dog Mustang” ever been for the common man?
A 1968 500KR retailed for $4,438. Mustang GT was only $2,900 back then and a Beetle was $1,600.
As for the S550, all cars have exploded in price in the last 15 years.
2000 GT was $21k. Adjusted for inflation that is $31k.
Modern GT starts at $35k.
Meanwhile, average wage in 2000 was $32,154. Today it’s $48,642. Adjusted for inflation and you are at 47.5 vs 48. Wages are flat despite generally everything becoming more expensive.
Or people will pay stupid money for the Shelby name. Or the Camaro is just ugly. Or GM way over builds to demand and Ford under builds.
Actual sales numbers?
Ford promoted the 2013 GT500 as a car that could handle on a road course, break 200mph, and run in the 11's in the 1/4 mile. Essentially an all around car. 60mph in 1st gear, adjustable dampers, bigger brakes, coolers, launch control, track apps, etc.
Fast forward 5-6 years and you have competition out that does things better than the 2013/14 GT500's. If Ford promoted a Shelby GT500 that only catered to the straight line crowd, I cannot envision it being as successful as a more well rounded car. Dodge gave customers the Hellcat Challenger and Charger, then the straight line Demon. Chevrolet has the ZL1 that is essentially good at everything, the Corvette Grand Sport and the higher hitting Z06. And now, the ZR1.
In order to keep up with the competition, it takes technology and engineering. Those two things do not come cheap and most likely won't be in the reach for the common man unless he mortgages his future or accepts a $1000 car payment per month. Its just the reality of the market and day and age.
Yes, they will paty stupid money for the name, and I have no doubt there are several GT350s right now sitting in climate-controlled houses all wrapped up for the next 20 to 30 years. Especially 2015s. I can't imagine anyone out there daily driving a '15.
But look at the historical data. All Shelbys carry big returns in the vintage market. Credit what the man did for racing, etc. You don't see this with Dodge, or the Series 1 so much, but anything Ford related seems to be doing quite well. You can't blame someone in the modern era for riding that wave. Take '13-'14 GT500 owners for example. Some of them believe the car to be worth original sticker or better, even today. Normally you can't find clean, low mile examples for less than the $40's anywhere.
I wouldn't expect to see the GT500 pirced too much higher than a ZL1E (this is it's direct competitor, not a vette or Porsche). With that said, I don't expect any ground breaking world class changes enabling it to actually compete with the "997 GT2 RS and 991.2 Turbo S", which are at much higher price points. There was huge pushbacks from dealers at the first meeting concerning a MSRP of 85K with a goal of cutting 10k from that (which included carbon fiber use cutbacks). Taking that into account, there isn't a whole lot you can do when the bean counters control your build budget.
Correct. It literally created the pony car segment, which is essentially a class of cheap GT cars, not muscle cars. The Mustang was originally built to focus on handling over power. That has pretty much remained true throughout its existence. I don't know why magazines started referring to it as a muscle car. That has never been the Mustang's ethos.
I think one day those Dodge Omnis and Daytonas are going to start appreciating in value. That is, if any of them are even still in existence. Those were some dark, dark days for Chrysler product reliability. I think the Series 1 was done in by its milquetoast looks and the use of a V8 out of the Oldsmobile Aurora.
The 997 GT2 RS posted a 1:35.56 around Laguna Seca. The 991 Turbo S posted a 1:35.62. The GT350R posted a 1:36.11, basically within half a second of the 997 GT2 RS. Heck, the ZL1 1LE posted a 1:34.30. There's not a doubt in my mind that the new GT500 will beat all those times.
edit:
Just to throw it in there, the 997 GT3 RS posted a 1:36.77. The "standard" 997 GT3 posted a 1:39.52. Both trail the GT350R by .66 and 3.41 seconds, respectively. Pretty impressive!
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All I care about is that it's got gobs of power, gobs of torque and can at least keep up with the Z06 on the dragstrip. A killer interior, a killer exterior, some super wide tires out back and a killer sounding exhaust/supercharger whine.
Is that too much to ask?!?!? lol
Is that too much to ask?!?!? lol
Probably lolIs that too much to ask?!?!? lol
If it is accurate that dealers were pushing back on an $85K price point, then it is not only the bean counters, but the salesman who are worried that the car will not sell well enough or there will be too few buyers with means. In a perfect scenario, sales, accounting and engineering would all have some input into the process.
Left to his own devices, most engineers would design, equip and build a $200K Mustang, no matter what the market was for it. And being 9+ years into this bull market, who knows what the economy may look like when this thing finally drops. People shy away from buying expensive toys when their portfolios drop by 30 or 40% or their jobs are in jeopardy. As I recall, the 2007 GT500 was out about a year when the economic SHTF. Up until that point, everything looked rosy. By mid-2008, ADMs had all but disappeared and I was being offered a 2008 GT500 for less than MSRP. Economic conditions can change on a dime!
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This meeting did happen and if you know any really big dealers in the loop they will verify it.
By compete I didn't just mean track times, but all aspects of the vehicle (fit, finish, technology, etc)...just can't be done at such different price points.
If he says enough “maybe” one statement will be correct...
Are you the big dealer with the exact info you mention? As I’ve mentioned before most magazines are often wrong, take MT this month. With that I’ll add many dealers are often wrong(at least the ones I’ve dealt with) they care more about hype upping their commission(hell some dealers even teach this sales technique) and quotas. Very few are like Nick’s dealer from what I’ve seen and heard.
Now getting to the point at hand. Even if they were even a bit concerned with price point they would not be selling the GT350 with a +$20k adm and +$50k adm with the GT350R.
Now if they can find buyers at those outlandish prices more power to them. They simply have no right to complain of a $85/90k price point for the GT500!
What the big dealers are really saying is the extra $10k should go to the dealers in form of adm and not to ford who takes all the damn risk in spending hundreds millions to create the GT500 monster!
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I'm friends with 4 or 5 of the biggest Ford dealers in the country. Galpin, 5 Star, Woodhouse, Sanderson, Tasca, etc.
I sell more $80-90k trucks than I sell $50k trucks. The GT500 would have 0 issue with an MSRP of $85k.
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I sell more $80-90k trucks than I sell $50k trucks. The GT500 would have 0 issue with an MSRP of $85k.
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the issue is that at $85k dealers can’t add $20k adm and sell them at $105k. Because at $105k people start looking at the z06/zr1/viper/997t.
At $65k dealers can add $20k and sell the gt500 all day long at $85k.
At $65k dealers can add $20k and sell the gt500 all day long at $85k.
i don't care whether shelby's name or someone else's name is splashed on a mustang...as much of a GT500 and mustang fan as I am, I would NEVER pay $85K + $20K ADM for one. at that price there are at least half a dozen other cars I would be looking at. of course they do not need my 1 sale so they could probably care less how i feel.
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