Kennebell throttle Body issues

Willie said:

Well, by reading other's symptoms, I am thinking that this issue is inherent, even on the 75mm.... it seems that failsafe on lifting (while shifting and free revving) is a common theme.



I am not in contact with any of the big-name tuners, so I don't know whether they have tried what I have. Therefore, I don't know if they've even thought to try what I have.

I have come up with a modified tune solution but I also believe that it is just a workaround. Any tuner can change the dashpot settings to prevent the failsafe, but in my opinion, this is not a solution, only a band-aid. But whatever I think, if a band-aid works when there is no other solution, it sure is better than nothing.

Willie

Click to expand...

With Lund it seems that they have one standard 168 tune....if it works for you that's great, if it doesn't you're out of luck. Whether or not they've altered dashpot values in that tune is anyone's guess.

Robert - the dashpot Willie's referring to isn't mechanical, they're values you change in the tune file itself.

Robert M said:

You all have lost me, but I want to learn......

I know what a dashpot does on a carburetor, it slows the throttle blades from slamming shut too quickly, most were attached to a bracket and the throttle linkage would rest against it while the throttle blades were closing and it was adjustable.

The only "mechanical" place I can think of for this function in a KB TB is that spring and plunger inside of that threaded brass piece, is that the dashpot function in the TB?

Click to expand...

Ah, the good ol' days! A lot of the terminology used today is the same, like the "dashpot". The dashpot tables in the tune function is exactly the same as the mechanical plunger, only now it is controlled electronically. There is no "mechanical" dashpot nowadays.

Willie

RBB said:

With Lund it seems that they have one standard 168 tune....if it works for you that's great, if it doesn't you're out of luck.

Click to expand...

Yeah.... kind of like "one size fits all"..... Disgusting...

RBB said:

Whether or not they've altered dashpot values in that tune is anyone's guess.

Click to expand...

I have to wonder what they would tell you if you asked. Just a simple, "Have you modified ANY dashpot settings, or is mine completely stock?" I'm guessing they will not say.

Willie

Willie said:

Yeah.... kind of like "one size fits all"..... Disgusting...



I have to wonder what they would tell you if you asked. Just a simple, "Have you modified ANY dashpot settings, or is mine completely stock?" I'm guessing they will not say.

Willie

Click to expand...

Here's part of the email that Jon Jr. sent me last week. Willie, you might find some interesting info here. This is his explanation as to why any issue with a KB168 is mechanical, and not with their tune. I'm guessing they do not change dashpot at all.

I tend to agree. When changing a TB to any aftermarket unit, there are several things that physically change. Just a few here: Amount of air flowing past the blades at all blade angles... the correlation between this and MAF airflow versus blade angle, vacuum (draw through), boost (blow through), TPS voltage versus blade angle, idle blade angle, TB set screw adjustment, etc. Then throw in the infinite adjustments in the tune, i.e. torque / torque inverse tables and the hacking begins. In other words, two wrongs can result in one right, but not the way to do it. Then add yet another, Driver Demand tables... all this can create quite a mess.

This reminds me of an interesting point. The TB set screw adjustment. How many times have you read to never adjust this? As adamant as you hear this, it's basically become taboo to even touch the darn thing. Well, let me tell you a few things. If there is not sufficient free play from the blade resting angle and the set screw stop, failsafe will happen. Turning the key On commands the PCM to run a quick blade angle diagnostic and if the set screw stop is not adjusted properly, failsafe will set even before starting the engine. Unfortunately, what this diagnostic does not tell you is this >>

There is a setting in the tune for default blade angle. This should correspond to actual blade angle with key On, engine off. A quick datalog will confirm this. If it is not spot on, the set screw should be adjusted so the commanded and measured angles are the same. Everyone who changes the TB and buys a tune for it should do this simple check.... I have a feeling the tuners never say to do this... If this is not adjusted properly, it skews the entire blade angle versus airflow, etc.

Willie

Willie said:

I tend to agree. When changing a TB to any aftermarket unit, there are several things that physically change. Just a few here: Amount of air flowing past the blades at all blade angles... the correlation between this and MAF airflow versus blade angle, vacuum (draw through), boost (blow through), TPS voltage versus blade angle, idle blade angle, TB set screw adjustment, etc. Then throw in the infinite adjustments in the tune, i.e. torque / torque inverse tables and the hacking begins. In other words, two wrongs can result in one right, but not the way to do it. Then add yet another, Driver Demand tables... all this can create quite a mess.

This reminds me of an interesting point. The TB set screw adjustment. How many times have you read to never adjust this? As adamant as you hear this, it's basically become taboo to even touch the darn thing. Well, let me tell you a few things. If there is not sufficient free play from the blade resting angle and the set screw stop, failsafe will happen. Turning the key On commands the PCM to run a quick blade angle diagnostic and if the set screw stop is not adjusted properly, failsafe will set even before starting the engine. Unfortunately, what this diagnostic does not tell you is this >>

There is a setting in the tune for default blade angle. This should correspond to actual blade angle with key On, engine off. A quick datalog will confirm this. If it is not spot on, the set screw should be adjusted so the commanded and measured angles are the same. Everyone who changes the TB and buys a tune for it should do this simple check.... I have a feeling the tuners never say to do this... If this is not adjusted properly, it skews the entire blade angle versus airflow, etc.

Willie

Click to expand...

Thanks for the dashpot info. and yes to what you said above in Red, that is what I have read/heard also..........."DON'T TOUCH IT!!!" and if it is misadjusted, the TB has to go back to its manuf. for initial calibration. I don't know enough about this newer stuff so I don't screw with it.

I trust in the R&D and "hope" that it works right when I bolt it on.

R

What's difficult, if not downright impossible, is to determine whether a fault is mechanical / sensor, or tune related. One always blames the other. I am no exception. I've encountered this countless times and often left without a definitive answer.

What am I trying to say? Nothing really. Just blowing hot air and spewing my thoughts! I wish I had an answer. So for the time being, my dashpot settings circumvent failsafes and throttle body codes, so I'm content... until another Einstein comes along and figures this out..

Willie

Just curious of you guys having the KB issues are running the JLT123 CAI ..or the 148?
Or.....since these cars were tuned back in the past if that would even be a factor?

I have the KB Gimme 5 intake, but not with their filter.

Willie

Jam421 said:

Just curious of you guys having the KB issues are running the JLT123 CAI ..or the 148?
Or.....since these cars were tuned back in the past if that would even be a factor?

Click to expand...

I’m running a 148.

I’ve been tuning my own car for a while with hp tuners. Stock motor , built motor with jdm as cams, FRPP 65mm, Frpp monoblade, whipple 170mm elipticle. Jlt 123mm , 148mm jlt 155mm etc. Both monoblades Ive had great luck with adjusting the throttle stop and have been able to achieve perfect driveability. It seems like if the stop is advanced too far it has a tendency to idle high surge when slowing etc. Too low it wants to surge and die when slowing. When you find the right spot it’s perfect. Also have to keep in mind it takes miles drive cycles to adapt and it will change (usually lower idle) after it adapts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know this is an old 2019 Thread but any solutions yet. I just got the X.B.A Elbow and 168mm mono blade installed. The car runs great until I accelerate to high RPM and when i let go of the gas pedal the throttle body stops responding. I cycle the key off and on or shift into a higher gear to make the engine rev up and it works again. I am still waiting for the tune revision as the one i have right now is the initial one with no adjustments.

No CEL codes or nothing just that issue. It looks to only happens when I hit the gas past 3,500 RPMs and let go of the gas pedal. Kind of waiting to see if i will have to swap throttle body to a more reliable one, it sucks having this particular issue.

Please chime in to see if there is any updates on this issue.

The 168 KB (and also their 75 dual TB) does not like to be shut quickly. I see you have your car tuned, so contact them. For those of us who write our own tunes, I have developed and tested a solution. Message me for details.

Willie

Willie said:

The 168 KB (and also their 75 dual TB) does not like to be shut quickly. I see you have your car tuned, so contact them. For those of us who write our own tunes, I have developed and tested a solution. Message me for details.

Willie

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I received Lund tune revision back and he told me the TP2 voltage is not correct. He told me to adjust it to .59V.

I am going to load the tune and do the adjustment. Crossing my fingers now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Luillo69 said:

Thanks for the info. I received Lund tune revision back and he told me the TP2 voltage is not correct. He told me to adjust it to .59V

Click to expand...

That's a good first step. In my case, my voltage was WAY off. I corrected it but it did not fix the failsafe when shifting at high rpm's. What did fix it were changes in the file, specifically the upper values in only two tables.

Willie

Willie said:

That's a good first step. In my case, my voltage was WAY off. I corrected it but it did not fix the failsafe when shifting at high rpm's. What did fix it were changes in the file, specifically the upper values in only two tables.

Willie

Click to expand...

Honesty he said I never got failsafe. Is just off or closed when let off. I took initial reading and it was .61.

The best I could adjust the TPS was to .57, never held at .59


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Luillo69 said:

Honesty he said I never got failsafe. Is just off or closed when let off.

Click to expand...

That's because mine was WAY off. Yours may not be near as bad as mine, but enough to trigger funky stuff. It's basically the same issue. I've read countless others exhibiting similar issues with this TB. Today, I've got mine to work as smooth as a stock TB and even the idle is at stock.

Luillo69 said:

I took initial reading and it was .61.

Click to expand...

Check this out >> When I got mine, it was set to 1.09 volts! So you never know!

Willie

Willie said:

That's because mine was WAY off. Yours may not be near as bad as mine, but enough to trigger funky stuff. It's basically the same issue. I've read countless others exhibiting similar issues with this TB. Today, I've got mine to work as smooth as a stock TB and even the idle is at stock.



Check this out >> When I got mine, it was set to 1.09 volts! So you never know!

Willie

Click to expand...

What voltage you got yours at? I had to sand the TPS bolt holes to be able to move it a few mm. Honestly didn’t move that much but enough to work much better. It only had a minor throttle in responsiveness by like a second then kept working fine. If the issue doesn’t resolve 100% I will be looking at the most reliable TB to swap. I hate that issue. Not be able to react fast in the street is annoying and dangerous.

I’m curious how these TB work on their 3.6, 4.2, and 4.7 head units. Or if the whipple TB are better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, you're correct, these TPS's really cannot be clocked to adjust the voltag unlike my older Camaro's which has an adjustment slot. Because I write my own tunes and can adjust "stuff" in the tune for throttle angle, what I had to do to correct my almost double recommended voltage (1.09v) to 0.59v was to turn the "absolutely NEVER turn" screw on the TB. What it does is change the blade angle at idle. I adjusted it until the voltage was at 0.59v. This changed the blade angle at idle about 1.5 degrees, so I was going to change this in my tune, but I ran the car before doing so and it showed no adverse issues.... so I left it as is.

The adjustment screw on the KB is super wonky. It appears to be cheaply made. I did not like the quality, i.e. plastic, so I replaced it with one off an old L&M TB made of aluminum. It has an adjustment screw and a lock screw. Take a peek:


Willie

Luillo69 said:

I’m curious how these TB work on their 3.6, 4.2, and 4.7 head units. Or if the whipple TB are better.

Click to expand...

I have a 4.2. Personally, I would not go with any other throttle body. This opinion holds because I got it to run like stock.

Willie