EPA to Start Aggressively Enforcing Emission Defeat Devices

Deceptive

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Travel is a constitutional right. The means of travel in this modern age is a car.
Speech is a constitutional right. The means of speech in this modern age is internet.

Does that mean the government owes me a car or a computer? NO!
Does that mean the government should leave me alone if I'm not posing a threat? YES.

I am all for the car hobby, hell I have a stand alone in a strictly street car.

That said, travel is a right like you said but the EPA is not trying to take away that right.

I want the EPA to leave car guys alone but using travel as a right to argue against the EPA going after tuners is laughable. How is having the ability to tune vs not tune keeping you from traveling? It is not.


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blk02edge

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MOST of fighting is simply resistance to shitty ideas. if people resisted the NFA and the countless other infringements on our daily lives instead of taking the bait of "its for safety" which buried the hook of tyranny in their bellies then we would be much better off.

you resist this EPA bullshit by speaking out, voting out, and resisting implementation. and this shit can be resisted with TIN FOIL because all of you bike shedders that think this is in any way not a completely damn near impossible logistical/economic nightmare have NO idea what you're talking about.



"but hey back to cars oh and by the way here's the stuff we've given up on"

no. that will not do.

uhm... yeah cause thats sort of the ENTIRE POINT of the consitution. it is a cage for government.



Travel is a constitutional right. The means of travel in this modern age is a car.
Speech is a constitutional right. The means of speech in this modern age is internet.

Does that mean the government owes me a car or a computer? NO!
Does that mean the government should leave me alone if I'm not posing a threat? YES.
K... Well go start a change.org petition and let me know how that goes... Voting... Lol you live in fantasy land good luck with it.

I wish I had a real answer but until people start actually taking up arms over their currently trampled on freedoms i'll just assume the majority of the population is 99% talk 1% action.
 

HillbillyHotRod

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I wish I had a real answer but until people start actually taking up arms over their currently trampled on freedoms i'll just assume the majority of the population is 99% talk 1% action.

In a nutshell. 99% of drivers could care less if tuners are forced out. It is the 1% who mod their rides that do and most of them will not do anything. How many on here have contacted their Congress critters and complained? Not many I would guess.
 

Corbic

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In a nutshell. 99% of drivers could care less if tuners are forced out. It is the 1% who mod their rides that do and most of them will not do anything. How many on here have contacted their Congress critters and complained? Not many I would guess.
Meh, I mean Cobb Tunning has sold more GT-R hand helds then GT-RS built.

I betcha every single HC and GT500 would bitch, etc.

The argument of "greater good" is another leftist favorite. "So what we executed a few dissenters, it's for the greater good."






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Makobra

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K... Well go start a change.org petition and let me know how that goes... Voting... Lol you live in fantasy land good luck with it.

I wish I had a real answer but until people start actually taking up arms over their currently trampled on freedoms i'll just assume the majority of the population is 99% talk 1% action.

we protest with subverting the existing laws. NFA makes a short barreled rifle rule. we invent AR "pistols".
EPA adds some psycho rule requiring a connection and we all just disable that connection with TIN FOIL.

resistance to tyranny is either part of your daily life or you are part of the problem because tyranny is an ever present danger from government.
 

IronSnake

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Looks like i'm buying the MS3x PnP sooner than later for the GT. It just hit 20 years old too.. so god willin by the time this rolls around to us, it won't matter.
 

SecondhandSnake

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I've said it before and I'll say it again.

All the idiots "rolling coal" ruined the entire tuning industry for everybody.

Ironic since before 07 all diesels belched black smoke and many still on the road only take a few turns of screws to spew even more.

maybe I should go ahead and grab this motes quarter horse and stuff now lol...wonder if it works with the new cars too

I highly recommend it. I did it to get over SCT's neutering of their software and I actually like the QH and TunerPro better. The tuning on the fly capability is amazing. No more wasting all kinds of time reflashing.

I bet standalone engine management will become a lot more popular if the EPA cracks down even more on SCT, HPTuners, and shops that use tuning platforms like those.

They already are. Thankfully they're becoming more and more accessible.

A dilemma that we’ll need to think about as well, is the OEM’s move to more integrated electrical & control systems, and well as over-the-air updates. An unnoticeable push update to your car could theoretically overwrite any foreign code/parameters, and really screw you. Sure, you could get creative and try to block such updates, but they could make it difficult enough, that virtually no one would do it. Imagine you car refusing to run because you don’t have software version 1.4.7?

Tesla already widely uses it, along with a few other manufacturers. The new Vette incorporates it, along with all new GM vehicles. It doesn’t appear all that intrusive right now, but I could easily envision a day when the OEM’s are under all kinds of pressure from the gov’t/EPA, that they will essentially be forced to implement something like this.

Working in the industry it's already there. They know when your engine has the slightest hiccup in real time, all collected into a data center and if they get wind of it, can push an update out without you so much as noticing.

Yet another win for SCT, there are the only tuning company that is already past all this mess

...by severely restricting their software to a glorified tire/axle ratio recalibrator.

Here's the first set of problems off the top of my head:
1. who's going to pay for the connection?
2. who's going to guarantee the connection?
3. HOW can you garuntee a connection?
4. how can you legally mandate that the customer must update?
5. the only way to shut down a thing without being able to talk to that thing is to build INTO the thing a self destruct/shutdown protocol on a timer

1-3 is defeated easily because that dog won't hunt. and when i say won't i mean WON'T. its untenable.
4 is a big legal no. we own our property. period end of discussion.
5 is the only way to reliably handle this which can not only be undone programmatically but would spur the ire of the average consumer hereto unknown

you guys are talking about what is possible technologically in theory which in no way translates to the real world.

if your truck lives in a metal skinned garage or is in a rural area the problems of the proposed ideas become crystal clear immediately.

no need to freak out. not only are tuners not going away but it will only get easier to tune cars. mark my words.

but hey we're talkin software and I'm just a senior software developer.

A lot of software already has a built in "self destruct" to last in between connections, to brick or just plain inhibit what you're doing until you update.

As for number 4...that's actually a bigger issue with everything moving away from an ownership model to a service subscription model. That will actually make it easier for them to lock you out. Look at John Deere and their software. And just like that there's always someone out there to build a better mousetrap, but they're going to make it as onerous as possible.
 

Makobra

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Ironic since before 07 all diesels belched black smoke and many still on the road only take a few turns of screws to spew even more.



I highly recommend it. I did it to get over SCT's neutering of their software and I actually like the QH and TunerPro better. The tuning on the fly capability is amazing. No more wasting all kinds of time reflashing.



They already are. Thankfully they're becoming more and more accessible.



Working in the industry it's already there. They know when your engine has the slightest hiccup in real time, all collected into a data center and if they get wind of it, can push an update out without you so much as noticing.



...by severely restricting their software to a glorified tire/axle ratio recalibrator.



A lot of software already has a built in "self destruct" to last in between connections, to brick or just plain inhibit what you're doing until you update.

As for number 4...that's actually a bigger issue with everything moving away from an ownership model to a service subscription model. That will actually make it easier for them to lock you out. Look at John Deere and their software. And just like that there's always someone out there to build a better mousetrap, but they're going to make it as onerous as possible.

Explain to me why my truck needs to regularly get internet or become a brick.

That shit would be a marketing disaster.
 

blk02edge

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we protest with subverting the existing laws. NFA makes a short barreled rifle rule. we invent AR "pistols".
EPA adds some psycho rule requiring a connection and we all just disable that connection with TIN FOIL.

resistance to tyranny is either part of your daily life or you are part of the problem because tyranny is an ever present danger from government.
Yes, you are scurrying around laws that are constantly chasing you, how do you think that ends up in the long run? You either literally fight or You'll eventually lose.
 

SecondhandSnake

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Explain to me why my truck needs to regularly get internet or become a brick.

That shit would be a marketing disaster.

I'm sure they said the same thing when proprietary tools and electronics came out, but here we are. 99% of customers are clamoring for more connectivity. They want a smartphone that also happens to drive places.
 

Makobra

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I'm sure they said the same thing when proprietary tools and electronics came out, but here we are. 99% of customers are clamoring for more connectivity. They want a smartphone that also happens to drive places.

except for the fact that a cellular telephone is a device designed explicitly for the purpose of making cellular telephone calls which require a cellular connection, dude.
it is part of its intrinsic functionality.

connecting to a cell tower is not, and should never be, part of a car's intrinsic functionality.

you must live in a big city.

what happens when your car decides to update and you're in a tunnel?
this can go wrong in so many ways its not even funny.
 

DSG2003Mach1

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Explain to me why my truck needs to regularly get internet or become a brick.

That shit would be a marketing disaster.

Im not saying it wouldnt be a disaster but there are plenty of devices out there that if they don't check in every so often they lock you out. They do something super stupid like you pay for a software license 6months at a time and if it doesnt check in every 6 months to verify your subscription you get locked out...kind of like our postage meter to make sure we arent screwing the post office somehow.
 

GTSpartan

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what happens when your car decides to update and you're in a tunnel?
this can go wrong in so many ways its not even funny.

It would make sure everything was downloaded completely/correctly before it actually updated itself. This eliminates any connectivity concerns, and is widely employed practice.

I totally get what you're saying, but this is the direction that everything is headed unfortunately. Cars will eventually talk to each other on the road real-time. It'll all be connected.
 

Makobra

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"It would make sure everything was downloaded completely/correctly before it actually updated itself."

therefore, to prevent this from happening all you have to do is block this download, right? problem solved.

"It'll all be connected."

maybe most but not all and you can't mandate they all be connected because that would be like mandating that luxuries must be used.
 

GTSpartan

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"It would make sure everything was downloaded completely/correctly before it actually updated itself."

therefore, to prevent this from happening all you have to do is block this download, right? problem solved.

"It'll all be connected."

maybe most but not all and you can't mandate they all be connected because that would be like mandating that luxuries must be used.

Again reference several earlier posts. Software can be easily be created with "expiration" dates. Block the signal, fine....at some point you'll need to connect. Highly doubt they'd shut you down, but they could easily limit you to 45.

Mandating pretty much anything is a simple legislative session away. That's an unfortunate reality. Just like all aircraft (there are some very limited exceptions) must utilize transponders. This would be no different.
 

Makobra

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Again reference several earlier posts. Software can be easily be created with "expiration" dates. Block the signal, fine....at some point you'll need to connect. Highly doubt they'd shut you down, but they could easily limit you to 45.

Mandating pretty much anything is a simple legislative session away. That's an unfortunate reality. Just like all aircraft (there are some very limited exceptions) must utilize transponders. This would be no different.

sure they could and it'd be SUICIDE for that manufacturer and product.

it'd also require knowing what day it is. its almost like i do this for a living and see theories fail all the time when put into practice.

now this fantasy project needs an atomic clock in it, better get to work boys LOL
 

Deceptive

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sure they could and it'd be SUICIDE for that manufacturer and product.

it'd also require knowing what day it is. its almost like i do this for a living and see theories fail all the time when put into practice.

now this fantasy project needs an atomic clock in it, better get to work boys LOL

How is it suicide for a manufacturer? Is Tesla not doing well? How many people do you think it would honestly bother? For most of my vehicles, I would not care. Only for the vehicles I would buy to specifically modify would it ever bother me.

So saying it is suicide when it is a small portion of the population is just wrong. How many new vehicles in relation to older do you see at the track? Shows? Cruises? Meets?

Manufacturers would loose a portion of their sports lineup.


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Makobra

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How is it suicide for a manufacturer? Is Tesla not doing well? How many people do you think it would honestly bother? For most of my vehicles, I would not care. Only for the vehicles I would buy to specifically modify would it ever bother me.

So saying it is suicide when it is a small portion of the population is just wrong. How many new vehicles in relation to older do you see at the track? Shows? Cruises? Meets?

Manufacturers would loose a portion of their sports lineup.

I'll give you a thousand dollars if tesla has hardcoded dead man switches in their software that, if not reset, will make the vehicle inoperable in any way.

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS. CASH.

if they don't you give ME the thousand bucks.

bet?

you won't because its a psychotically stupid idea that nobody in their right mind would do.
 

Deceptive

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I'll give you a thousand dollars if tesla has hardcoded dead man switches in their software that, if not reset, will make the vehicle inoperable in any way.

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS. CASH.

if they don't you give ME the thousand bucks.

bet?

you won't because its a psychotically stupid idea that nobody in their right mind would do.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/for...ble-your-car-and-i-saw-their-factory-software

Seems highly plausible that they can just have not turned it on yet.

Look at how Tesla is doing their part sales.

You have in your mind this notion of people going to war with a government over cars. I think you are a bit unhinged from the reality that most could not care about how intrusive the EPA becomes or how their hand will be forced by the market.

Insurance companies will offer lower rates to those allowing monitoring and these “updates”.

You can pound your drum all
You want but you are really nobody in the scheme of this. The car scene is nobody in the grand scheme.



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