EPA to Start Aggressively Enforcing Emission Defeat Devices

Thorpz said:

I find it odd that no one realizes that OnStar can all ready do most of this. So to say it is not plausible is kinda laughable.

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I know, but it was too much fun to watch a man paint himself into a corner. He will show up to say that is not the same thing, he is an expert, blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, I will forward this to my R&D engineers on Tuesday for a quick laugh.


No IT equipment was stolen in the making of this comment.

blk02edge said:

I remember On star could brick a vehicle that was being chased by police

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And I'll also add this guess who else operates out of the Onstar building in Texas, thats right Acura/Honda also uses that location for the exact same thing as Onstar for the Honda vehicle online monitoring and safety alert system. except they don't seem to have as many complaints with customers as Onstar.

Deceptive said:

MaOstrich ignored it when I pointed out the emissions issues with diesels.

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lies. faults detected have been sending cars into limp mode since ecu's became sophisticated enough to do it.
not the same as the feature you guys are proposing for reasons i've already enumerated.

I think you missed the point. MaOstrich claims that companies won’t do thing s the customers don’t want or things to hurt their product because the EPA wants them to. Well, the diesel emissions prove that he is wrong, yet again.

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that is not my argument Mr. Kruger.

for the people that will actually read what I say my argument is that even if companies are dumb enough to do this (and I'd bet a thousand dollars they aren't which nobody is accepting) then the free market would wholesale reject it resulting in the largest uptick in used car sales in the history of the world with the largest recession in the new car industry we've ever seen.

Thorpz said:

I find it odd that no one realizes that OnStar can all ready do most of this. So to say it is not plausible is kinda laughable.

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you're correct in saying that onstar can kill a car remotely but that isn't the feature put forth in this thread.

what was put forth is that the manufacturer will put a kill date in the ECU that requires a satelite uplink. if that uplink cannot be established it will kill the car requiring it to be towed to a dealer for reset.

no company on planet earth does this. every example put forth thus far has some elements of these requirements but not all of them and certainly no forced update date.

I know of no company on planet earth that forces you to update any device with new software. that isn't even touching on BRICKING your device if you refuse to update.

No IT equipment was stolen in the making of this comment.

Well I'm convinced, if they don't do it now then there's noooo waaaay they'll do it later as technology increases. I'll bet the democrats do a 180 on gun control too and just let it go.

You guys are better than me.

I quit even considering wasting my time when I was told that the very thing I witnessed with my own two eyes from my drivers seat......didn’t really happen by someone thousands of miles away....


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I have a rebuttal/review but I am going to write the cliffs in crayon so maybe Tony “MaOstrich” Stark-Walker Texas Ranger can finally comprehend what is being said.

But I am not holding out hope.


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Makobra said:

\

I work with professionals that understand software development, business requirements, dependencies, and salability so if I bring up an issue with them about an idea we talk it through.

unlike in this scenario where you guys are basically like "hey man, its software, it can happen".

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I work in the same type of environment on different products. If someone behaved like you, said person would be at least removed from the team, and quite possibly unemployed. NO engineer worth a damn thing, no matter what field, talks like you.

That said, your objections to how this can be implemented are laughable. As I already pointed out, you're hung up on one failure mode, completely ignorning that the implementation might be completely different which might eliminate that failure mode.

Makobra said:

you're correct in saying that onstar can kill a car remotely but that isn't the feature put forth in this thread.

what was put forth is that the manufacturer will put a kill date in the ECU that requires a satelite uplink. if that uplink cannot be established it will kill the car requiring it to be towed to a dealer for reset.

no company on planet earth does this. every example put forth thus far has some elements of these requirements but not all of them and certainly no forced update date.

I know of no company on planet earth that forces you to update any device with new software. that isn't even touching on BRICKING your device if you refuse to update.

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EA Games with online connectivity required DRM games. Need for Speed comes to mind.

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Coiled03 said:

I work in the same type of environment on different products. If someone behaved like you, said person would be at least removed from the team, and quite possibly unemployed. NO engineer worth a damn thing, no matter what field, talks like you.

That said, your objections to how this can be implemented are laughable. As I already pointed out, you're hung up on one failure mode, completely ignorning that the implementation might be completely different which might eliminate that failure mode.

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that's an interesting critique full of speculation from someone who hasn't actually solved for the problem of a bricked piece of hardware if the customer doesn't update by a preset expiration date. nor has anyone presented that as a thing that even exist and if you think they have then you don't understand the problem.

too many bike shedding dunning-krugers in this thread.

How to prove to an entire forum you are a foolish nobody in the field you claim to be an expert in.

1. Tell everyone that you are right even though everyone else is telling you that you are wrong including people that are in the field.

2. Cherry pick parts out of the rebuttals as your argument and ignore everything else that is said.

3. Repeat

MaOstrich would make a great anchor for cable news networks.


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Deceptive said:

How to prove to an entire forum you are a foolish nobody in the field you claim to be an expert in.

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Except that not one of you has been able to tell the class how the guy who's car has shut down and won't run because it hit your kill date is going to get from the wilderness to civilization for it's dealer reset.

this isn't about a technical feature you guys say is possible but is in no way realistic it is about your insistance that the gubbermint can't be resisted.

here's the recap:

1. you guys were crying about gubbermint making stuff bad
2. you immediately gave up because gubbermints can't be thwarted
3. i casually explained how the EPA can't force these massive infrastructure job killing ideas without resistance at every level.
4. some of you argued that gubbermint can't be thwarted so they'll make the cars have wireless connections to ensure conformity
5. i point out how this is easily thwarted with tin foil by preventing connection
6. you argue some more about how gubbermint can just force a dead man's switch to be hard coded into the car's software that activates if it doesn't get an update
7. i point out how that is a fantasy big huge corporations would spend millions or billions fighting because they know the economic rammifications of this job killing new car industry crucifying horrible feature created as a result of your assistance that the gubbermint can't be thwarted.
8. you say i'm dumb because now that you've got the perfect totalitarian solution in mind that requires cooperation on every level that it can actually survive in the wild
9. i call you on your bike shedder dunning-kruger soaked bullshit.
10. you say i'm dumb.

great. good talk.

Cliff notes^
Makobra thinks democrats are sane level headed people.

Makobra said:

Except that not one of you has been able to tell the class how the guy who's car has shut down and won't run because it hit your kill date is going to get from the wilderness to civilization for it's dealer reset.

this isn't about a technical feature you guys say is possible but is in no way realistic it is about your insistance that the gubbermint can't be resisted.

here's the recap:

1. you guys were crying about gubbermint making stuff bad
2. you immediately gave up because gubbermints can't be thwarted
3. i casually explained how the EPA can't force these massive infrastructure job killing ideas without resistance at every level.
4. some of you argued that gubbermint can't be thwarted so they'll make the cars have wireless connections to ensure conformity
5. i point out how this is easily thwarted with tin foil by preventing connection
6. you argue some more about how gubbermint can just force a dead man's switch to be hard coded into the car's software that activates if it doesn't get an update
7. i point out how that is a fantasy big huge corporations would spend millions or billions fighting because they know the economic rammifications of this job killing new car industry crucifying horrible feature created as a result of your assistance that the gubbermint can't be thwarted.
8. you say i'm dumb because now that you've got the perfect totalitarian solution in mind that requires cooperation on every level that it can actually survive in the wild
9. i call you on your bike shedder dunning-kruger soaked bullshit.
10. you say i'm dumb.

great. good talk.

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Same government that mandated new gas cans that take 10 times as long to empty out. That's the government you are counting on?

Makobra said:

that's an interesting critique full of speculation from someone who hasn't actually solved for the problem of a bricked piece of hardware if the customer doesn't update by a preset expiration date. nor has anyone presented that as a thing that even exist and if you think they have then you don't understand the problem.

too many bike shedding dunning-krugers in this thread.

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Just like your critique of the implementation is full of speculation.

You have yet to explain why the ONLY way to implement this is your precious "dead man switch" that supposedly "bricks" the car.

Coiled03 said:

Just like your critique of the implementation is full of speculation.

You have yet to explain why the ONLY way to implement this is your precious "dead man switch" that supposedly "bricks" the car.

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If only vehicles had something like a maintenance interval for say, I don’t know, oil. And it would be a wild idea if these manufacturers made you change that oil at some determined time, like maybe miles.

I know, crazy idea.

Then manufacturers could do these looks, we will call them inspections, and see if a vehicle is still compliant with regulations. The manufacturers could reset a timer, we have to figure out a way, if only vehicles could measure how far they had been driven, like miles or kilometers. It could be reset to a predetermined distance.

Wild ideas, I know. It is a shame MaOstrich cannot see the possibilities. But he assured me the government would never overstep the constitutional rights of people and manufacturers wouldn’t bow to these things. You know, good thing I can walk in to any store and buy a fully automatic weapon like the 2A allows. And thank god that diesel trucks wouldn’t be made to be emissions compliant and risk millions of dollars in repairs to the manufacturers. These things would never happen because we have MaOstrich to protect us.


No IT equipment was stolen in the making of this comment.

What i expect is for the government to get people who don't know shit about various industries to mandate batshit crazy ideas like what you guys have proposed and I expect people to push back on those ideas. if that push back fails i expect us to resist and thwart those ideas.

Coiled03 said:

Just like your critique of the implementation is full of speculation.

You have yet to explain why the ONLY way to implement this is your precious "dead man switch" that supposedly "bricks" the car.

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I disagree, my reasoned argument is based on logical necessities for the given problem that you guys are supposedly trying to solve.

I think we're talking about two different things so lets try this from another angle.

What problem are you trying to solve here?

Makobra said:

What i expect is for the government to get people who don't know shit about various industries to mandate batshit crazy ideas like what you guys have proposed and I expect people to push back on those ideas. if that push back fails i expect us to resist and thwart those ideas.



I disagree, my reasoned argument is based on logical necessities for the given problem that you guys are supposedly trying to solve.

I think we're talking about two different things so lets try this from another angle.

What problem are you trying to solve here?

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Good to see you are finally seeing that this is doable. Yes, specifics would need to be worked out. I’d imagine different companies taking different approaches.

Now, you said about the government getting people in position that don’t know shit. Well, that is already in play. While manufacturers may push back and, at least for now, you have Consumer Advocate groups taking the owner’s side. I’d imagine the EPA will take the approach of saying it is what is good for the earth and future generations. Look, they already enacted regulations in arenas that is technologically impossible or crippling financially without regard for companies.

You believe the EPA cares or that the government cares. The EPA recently clarified that any racecar based on a road legal vehicle has to keep their emissions equipment intact and working unless said vehicle has been rendered inoperable for the public roads. Leaves a lot of room for the EPA to shut down grassroots racing.

Yes, you can resist by buying older vehicles. The majority of the population will not care about the intrusive nature of such regulations.

There is no problem we are trying to solve. Just writing many of us can see on the walls. The EPA doesn’t care if they shut down the NMRA, NMCA, Livernois, SCT, or any other entity. They have become more aggressive.


No IT equipment was stolen in the making of this comment.

Deceptive said:

Good to see you are finally seeing that this is doable. Yes, specifics would need to be worked out. I’d imagine different companies taking different approaches.

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When someone says a batshit crazy stupid as all hell idea is easy to defeat that's not saying it can't be done.
you're WAY too snooty for someone so slow on the pickup. I said that 150 posts ago, mister hawking, and have only clarified since.

https://www.svtperformance.com/thre...n-defeat-devices.1182510/page-2#post-16350853

Now, you said about the government getting people in position that don’t know shit. Well, that is already in play. While manufacturers may push back and, at least for now, you have Consumer Advocate groups taking the owner’s side. I’d imagine the EPA will take the approach of saying it is what is good for the earth and future generations. Look, they already enacted regulations in arenas that is technologically impossible or crippling financially without regard for companies.

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not like the doomsday prophecy you guys have managed to dream up.

You believe the EPA cares or that the government cares. The EPA recently clarified that any racecar based on a road legal vehicle has to keep their emissions equipment intact and working unless said vehicle has been rendered inoperable for the public roads. Leaves a lot of room for the EPA to shut down grassroots racing.

Yes, you can resist by buying older vehicles. The majority of the population will not care about the intrusive nature of such regulations.

There is no problem we are trying to solve. Just writing many of us can see on the walls. The EPA doesn’t care if they shut down the NMRA, NMCA, Livernois, SCT, or any other entity. They have become more aggressive.

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they will when they get sued into oblivion, when the auto industry takes a massive hit, and people start screaming.

this is orwellian guilty until proven innocent stuff a thousand times worse than red light cameras and forcing people to buy health insurance.

this is boring. enjoy your weirdo doomsday prepper statist circle jerk.