Randy Pobst Testing The Big 3 (HellCat,GT 500,1LE)

tt335ci03cobra said:

So yer saying yer looking to duel...




What’s the fastest stock tire zl1 and redeye runs? What’s the fastest a red eye or zl1 have gone on a comparable tire to the gt500’s mpss’s? (Not the cfpt’s mpsc2’s, just mpss’s from the track pack.)

Has a stock 1le auto or manual created 10’s yet? Has a stock or tire only red eye run 10.5/6/7?

Considering the sticker price is a whopping difference of $10k from zl1 to redeye to base or track pack gt500, there’s not a big enough gap to justify any mud slinging.

The cars are 2 months old and starting to norm out and lose adm’a except the cftp cars.

We know a zl1 on decent healthy tires can barely edge out a gt500 on worn tires at the track, but the reviewers even pointed out the tires on the gt500 were done. It went 11.4@130 in 1/4 testing which is about the worst time published so far.

When we get a straight head to head test of a zl1 vs gt500 cftp, the gap will be pretty wide imo. There’s probably 2 seconds at leguna, which is huge even considering $25k difference.

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The ZL1 1LE will beat (by a decent margin) a "base" GT500. It will be a real dog fight with a CFTP GT500, which is a $100K car. This is also why I have focused on the $100K dollar amount. The "worn tires at the track" was on a CFTP G500, not a "base" GT500. When I use the word "track" I am referring to a road circuit and not a drag track.

tt335ci03cobra said:

Has a stock or tire only red eye run 10.5/6/7?

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Nope. I think 10.8 is as fast as these have gone and that no mag test was <11 sec.

But this is much ado about nothing in my opinion given the comic inadequacy of these tires. Arguing about times with these OEM is pointless.

Klaus said:

Nope. I think 10.8 is as fast as these have gone and that no mag test was <11 sec.

But this is much ado about nothing in my opinion given the comic inadequacy of these tires. Arguing about times with these OEM is pointless.

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Add the fact that these cars are 650HP+ and it gets even more pointless.

I agree with that was said above about the CFTP model. It’s a special car and with under 500 built, it’ll be rare and it will hold its value very well.

I like seeing what cars run with an equivalent tire.

Seeing a 400tw tire vs a 200tw tire is a joke.

That’s exactly why when people say the zl1 1le is actually faster in the right hands than a gt500 cftp, and the red eye just needs tires to also beat the gt500 (& cftp) at the strip I laugh and say the damn gt500 comes on 180-220tw fires so eat me with this crap.

Dodge puts a cheap pirelli on the red eye for god knows why, I’m guessing cost.

Chevy puts a 60tw trofeo r and then an eagle f1r at like 80-160tw.

Put a wonder tire on the gt500, and lemme know how much it helps. Already r888r is good for 1.5 60ft, and although everyone tells me the mpsc2 is the best stickiest street tire, I think a 60-80tw tire would do better imo.

Put an r888r on all three cars and let’s run em in all ways. I’m game on for normed runs. This idea that since the gt500 comes on mpsc2’s or mp4s’s that it can’t get a bump from tires also is bullshit to me.

I’ve ran Micheline tires. They are great but I still think there are stickier tires.

tt335ci03cobra said:

I like seeing what cars run with an equivalent tire.

Seeing a 400tw tire vs a 200tw tire is a joke.

That’s exactly why when people say the zl1 1le is actually faster in the right hands than a gt500 cftp, and the red eye just needs tires to also beat the gt500 (& cftp) at the strip I laugh and say the damn gt500 comes on 180-220tw fires so eat me with this crap.

Dodge puts a cheap pirelli on the red eye for god knows why, I’m guessing cost.

Chevy puts a 60tw trofeo r and then an eagle f1r at like 80-160tw.

Put a wonder tire on the gt500, and lemme know how much it helps. Already r888r is good for 1.5 60ft, and although everyone tells me the mpsc2 is the best stickiest street tire, I think a 60-80tw tire would do better imo.

Put an r888r on all three cars and let’s run em in all ways. I’m game on for normed runs. This idea that since the gt500 comes on mpsc2’s or mp4s’s that it can’t get a bump from tires also is bullshit to me.

I’ve ran Micheline tires. They are great but I still think there are stickier tires.

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What will be interesting is comparing laps between the CFTP cups and NT01's as the race car engineer himself said "there is no faster tire than what Michelin did with the CFTP spec Cup 2"

Manufacturers can slap whatever TW they want on a tire, I know first hand a 60TW Trofeo is slower than a 100TW NT01.

blk02edge said:

What will be interesting is comparing laps between the CFTP cups and NT01's as the race car engineer himself said "there is no faster tire than what Michelin did with the CFTP spec Cup 2"

Manufacturers can slap whatever TW they want on a tire, I know first hand a 60TW Trofeo is slower than a 100TW NT01.

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I hear things like that, but there are simply stickier cheater slicks than mpsc2’s. I will say they are no where near as light and confidence inspiring, but feel is subjective. Get used to a tire and it’s quirks and I gut hunch feel there has to be time using a trofeo r or r888r or whatever sub 100tw tire on a gt500 cftp.

That r888r’s took a gt500 to 1.5 60ft times, which is mental for a damn radical handling tire, leads me here. If the additional grip exists, it’s a matter of pressure, setup and so on to find how to extract and use it up.

Same way down force is useless with suspension adjustments to handle the load and force, just changing a tire won’t be opportune. Pressure plays a huge factor.

If a tire works awesome at 27/28psi on a 3600lbs car with 3650lbs and 51/49% distribution, with 275/295 sizes etc etc logic dictates it will need more air pressure to work awesome in a 4125lbs car with 53/47%, 295/315, etc. it might want 29/29 to have less tendency to slip away under load, but more compliance to maintain form against churning forces etc.

A 2150lbs gutted s2000 might only need 22/23psi to set it off epic with square 245’s and perfectly stave off deflecting sidewalks but squarely use the contact patch etc etc etc etc etc.

I’m sure the michelin is about as good as it gets, but I’m just saying I can’t see how mpsc2’s at 32psi is the optimum setup for a gt500 cftp.

If you are gonna try and optimize tire for other cars, then at least optimize pressure and possibly tire for the gt500cftp too.

A 2002 viper gtsr will shit on a lot of cars today with just some trofeo r’s and modern pads/fluid. It probably would hit leguna seca with a 1:36 or better. Gt350r is like 1:34.9 so that’s pretty substantial given a 2002 gtsr was maybe good for 1:41 stock. Pads, fluid, tires etc have moved on by echelons.

Just taking an 03 cobra or 02 ss Camaro and putting trofeo’s and pads/fluids will easily be worth tons of time on track.

Motortrend tested slicks on a stock mustang gt like a few years ago and lopped 5-7 seconds a lap iirc. Tire is basically the number 1 time mod for laps

tt335ci03cobra said:

I hear things like that, but there are simply stickier cheater slicks than mpsc2’s. I will say they are no where near as light and confidence inspiring, but feel is subjective. Get used to a tire and it’s quirks and I gut hunch feel there has to be time using a trofeo r or r888r or whatever sub 100tw tire on a gt500 cftp.

That r888r’s took a gt500 to 1.5 60ft times, which is mental for a damn radical handling tire, leads me here. If the additional grip exists, it’s a matter of pressure, setup and so on to find how to extract and use it up.

Same way down force is useless with suspension adjustments to handle the load and force, just changing a tire won’t be opportune. Pressure plays a huge factor.

If a tire works awesome at 27/28psi on a 3600lbs car with 3650lbs and 51/49% distribution, with 275/295 sizes etc etc logic dictates it will need more air pressure to work awesome in a 4125lbs car with 53/47%, 295/315, etc. it might want 29/29 to have less tendency to slip away under load, but more compliance to maintain form against churning forces etc.

A 2150lbs gutted s2000 might only need 22/23psi to set it off epic with square 245’s and perfectly stave off deflecting sidewalks but squarely use the contact patch etc etc etc etc etc.

I’m sure the michelin is about as good as it gets, but I’m just saying I can’t see how mpsc2’s at 32psi is the optimum setup for a gt500 cftp.

If you are gonna try and optimize tire for other cars, then at least optimize pressure and possibly tire for the gt500cftp too.

A 2002 viper gtsr will shit on a lot of cars today with just some trofeo r’s and modern pads/fluid. It probably would hit leguna seca with a 1:36 or better. Gt350r is like 1:34.9 so that’s pretty substantial given a 2002 gtsr was maybe good for 1:41 stock. Pads, fluid, tires etc have moved on by echelons.

Just taking an 03 cobra or 02 ss Camaro and putting trofeo’s and pads/fluids will easily be worth tons of time on track.

Motortrend tested slicks on a stock mustang gt like a few years ago and lopped 5-7 seconds a lap iirc. Tire is basically the number 1 time mod for laps

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Hard to keep up with all of your over thinking but don't forget, that Cup2 was made from the ground up for the GT500 specifically, just read the articles on how many tires they went through on testing to perfect it. I'll agree with Billy J that no aftermarket tire will out perform it short of a slick. An R888R is not an outstanding tire by any means unless you want a tire that will hook in a straight line and still give you so/so road course. It is a trade off tire. Oem tire pressures dont matter, adjust any tire to what works. More variables to psi than just weight/deflection as too high of a psi will grease fast and too low of a psi will also grease fast. Different tires also needed different alignment specs.

tt335ci03cobra said:

Motortrend tested slicks on a stock mustang gt like a few years ago and lopped 5-7 seconds a lap iirc. Tire is basically the number 1 time mod for laps

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Anything is an upgrade over the stock P-ZERO NEROs lol

Voltwings said:

I'll ask you again, how much track experience do you have? Go put sticky R compounds on a car without adjusting the suspension to compensate and come tell me how it drives. You'll pick up some time from the stickier tire actually being able to handle the heat (that's a factor that's independent of overall grip) but it wont be near what you expect it to be, and is not worth the trade off in unpredictability.

This is a very simple concept. A car taking a set in a corner will have X amount of body roll before the tires lose grip and the car starts to either push or oversteer (we're also ignoring bushing deflection and differences in suspension geometry and camber gain loss under compression in this scenario). When you have a sticker tire, that point comes later, so the body rolls MORE before the grip is lost and you end up with "snap" conditions as the momentum suddenly overwhelms the tires (again, ignoring camber gain / loss and the fact that the car is more likely to end up on the outside shoulder of the tire at this point). The same is true for changing directions, you end up with very abrupt, sloppy, and unpredictable handling. And again, going back to my original point, this would be more apparent in a car like the challenger because there is so much weight in question, but you'll find similar behavior even on a miata.

I only made this comment to discredit the post saying adding a sticky tire to the hellcat would have it running in line with the others, because it just wouldn't.

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ZYBORG said:

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@ZYBORG, just had a friend send me this, and I want you to go to 6:20 and watch the following quote from Dodge's vehicle development manager: "... obviously with more grip you're going to have a tendency to have more roll angle, so we wanted to counter that..."

Track day is next week buddy, you going to be gracing us with your presence?

Stangmodes wife just went 10.5@135 basically stock. R888r tire, resonator delete and maybe airbox lid off and 1.71 60ft. she went 11.3@133 1st try with some spin, then ran 10.5@135. Impressive. Didn’t seem like the bestest ever conditions but obviously it’s march 3rd so nice air played a factor

That limelight gt500 is moving out

tt335ci03cobra said:

Stangmodes wife just went 10.5@135 basically stock. R888r tire, resonator delete and maybe airbox lid off and 1.71 60ft. she went 11.3@133 1st try with some spin, then ran 10.5@135. Impressive. Didn’t seem like the bestest ever conditions but obviously it’s march 3rd so nice air played a factor

That limelight gt500 is moving out

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And no seats...still impressive though.

Voltwings said:

@ZYBORG, just had a friend send me this, and I want you to go to 6:20 and watch the following quote from Dodge's vehicle development manager: "... obviously with more grip you're going to have a tendency to have more roll angle, so we wanted to counter that..."

Track day is next week buddy, you going to be gracing us with your presence?

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You still at it?

yes, my guy, stickier tires will affect roll angle! You know what else they will do? Decrease lap time!

ever so slight increase of roll angle, might affect the way a Redeye behaves in some minuscule way, but when it comes to lap times, this is largely outweighed by the benefits of massive traction improvement.

ZYBORG said:

You still at it?

yes, my guy, stickier tires will affect roll angle! You know what else they will do? Decrease lap time!

ever so slight increase of roll angle, might affect the way a Redeye behaves in some minuscule way, but when it comes to lap times, this is largely outweighed by the benefits of massive traction improvement.

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Think about all the room for activities on track without that roll angle though

The honest truth? I think they tested the cars with stickier tires, it wasn’t that impressive lap time wise for the field, didn’t feel near as fun or sensational, and wasn’t much quicker in a line.

Drag racers are getting mid 10’s with a drag radial.

Car dynamically is very different on a drag radial, less overall enjoyment for the average buyer.

Why would dodge put a sticky summer tire on a hoonmachine. guarantee the average driver has more fun in a hellcat on stock tires vs a square sticky summer tire. Car is big and stately, try and make that feel nimble and sticky, you just take the raw hoonigan out and are left with a futon that can’t lap with a civic type r, but can cut a 1.85 vs 2.0 60ft... 10.85 vs 11.2 1/4 mile isn’t worth killing the overall fun driving experience or additional msrp.

ZYBORG said:

You still at it?

yes, my guy, stickier tires will affect roll angle! You know what else they will do? Decrease lap time!

ever so slight increase of roll angle, might affect the way a Redeye behaves in some minuscule way, but when it comes to lap times, this is largely outweighed by the benefits of massive traction improvement.

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I am still at it, because I am talking from experience and you are talking out of your ass. Don't try to shy away from it by saying "ever so slight increase" and "some minuscule way," you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, Just take your L gracefully and move on.

Quote those percentage changes they made to the springs and sway bars for me, post them here for everyone to see and realize that was the changes they made just going from a 275 to a 305, not even changing tire compound. You think needing a 38% stiffer front spring, 52% stiffer rear bar is "minuscule?" Again, You have an open invite to any of the track days i host throughout the year.

Voltwings said:

I am still at it, because I am talking from experience and you are talking out of your ass. Don't try to shy away from it by saying "ever so slight increase" and "some minuscule way," you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, Just take your L gracefully and move on.

Quote those percentage changes they made to the springs and sway bars for me, post them here for everyone to see and realize that was the changes they made just going from a 275 to a 305, not even changing tire compound. You think needing a 38% stiffer front spring, 52% stiffer rear bar is "minuscule?" Again, You have an open invite to any of the track days i host throughout the year.

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You are delusional, my man. YOU are the one that argues against the fact that the Redeye would see an improvement in lap times, should the p-zeros be switched for Cup2s.

You think that because you host some track rentals, this makes you an expert? Ha, ha, and more ha.

You are incompetent at best, and with that type of thought process, I would not be surprised to see you voting for Sanders.

You keep “offering” for me to come to you and your circle, while I know you know that I am driving a truck at the moment. Lol. Stop it.


Talk about living rent free in your head! Move on, my guy.