Breakthrough? Or years of my R&D to the scrap heap!

Willie

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It has taken years to get to this point. The tune file for my final test is written. It will be loaded and tested the very next time I go out for testing and will answer my own question whether my idea will actually work or not, an idea I came up with while I slept back in 2018. Took me back to my college days when I solved math problems in the middle of the night while sleeping. I would wake up, jot some notes then go back to sleep. I learned I had to do this because when I don't, I never remembered when I woke up. I was an engineering math major...

Totally vague, agreed? If you are a fan of e85, this is a must read. An FYI first. It's important to note that I do my own tuning. That being said, here's a little history and background.

I have been a die-hard methanol fan for many years before entering the Ford realm around 2004. I had a simple system on many cars, even back in the day when we weren't using methanol. We were using denatured alcohol bought from Home Depot at that time. Technology has certainly advanced since then. I've used it on centrifugal superchargers and also turbo cars. Turbo Buick guys all seem to swear by it. Anyways....

When I had a 2003 Cobra and a "new-to-me" roots-style blower and learning about it by reading what guys here were posting, I was kind of surprised how little info there was on methanol, much less anyone's results. I never installed it on the Cobra. But when I got my first GT500 in 2008, I decided to install a relatively simple kit and find out for myself why hardly no one was using it.

I discovered a couple of reasons why it does not work well: 1) Because it is sprayed pre-blower, the cooling effect in-cylinder is negligible. I really saw very little difference, if any, on IAT2 temps, and 2) Because there is no way to use it as a replacement for gas, i.e. reduce the amount of gas used when methanol is being sprayed, AFR is super rich and cannot be tuned. It is what it is. The only advantage I could see was to use it as an octane booster, as safety. The conclusion is methanol is not worth the cost on an Eaton style supercharger engine.

Specific info for both counts >>
1) The intake air where the methanol is sprayed is cooled. The air then passes through the blower and whatever cooling had already taken place is negated when the air is compressed. Is there a way to solve this?

2) The fueling table(s) in the tune file CAN be modified (leaned out) to compensate for the methanol. This is simple to do. The reason why it is not, and the reason why professional tuners refuse to tune for methanol is because of the possibility the methanol system will fail to one degree or another. Or more likely, the user would forget to arm the methanol system. If either of these were to happen, the result could be a dangerously lean AFR. Possibly kaboom. I can understand the professional tuner's apprehension; eliminate liability by just saying, "No."

Years ago, there was a device on the market called a Flip Chip. I don't recall who made it or what vehicle it was made for. Essentially, it was a device that allowed two separate tunes in one vehicle and by flipping a switch, you could run either tune. Something like this would work, I thought.

The one solution I can think of is to trash the factory electronics and go with aftermarket. Lots of Benjamins though.

So questions to myself were, 1) Is there a way to cool the IAT2 with methanol?, and 2) A way to tune the AFR? In other words, reduce the amount of gas ONLY when methanol is flowing, insuring safety when it is not.

Answer to 1) Through trial and error (and a lot of sweat) I believe I have come up with a design that results in significant IAT2 temp cooling, but there is one drawback. I use a 5-nozzle configuration. Four small nozzles are located in the lower intake (post-blower) and the fifth larger nozzle in the supercharger elbow behind the throttle body. The four lower cools the compressed air and the single larger insures evenly distributed methanol (mixed by the blower rotors). I have seen IAT2 temps go DOWN with rpm on a WOT pass. I'd be happy with this temp not increasing through a pass, so to see it going down is amazing. Problem solved.

Answer to 2) The fueling... this one is far more difficult to solve. I'd bet no one has... maybe... There are two distinct scenarios, both requiring different fueling, which must be switched AUTOMATICALLY, thereby eliminating human error. My basic premise was the methanol controller must somehow be able to communicate with the factory PCM. And NO hardware changes to the PCM (I'm not smart enough to know what goes on inside the box.) hmmm... I thought about this for a very long time, then one night, had an idea. I got up, fired up the laptop, pulled up a tune file and started looking for certain things to see if my idea was valid. As I looked through every scalar and table, my idea became more and more valid. I jotted down some notes and went back to bed.

It has been years since that night. I had to build one simple circuit. So simple virtually anyone could build this. It is installed and tested on my car. Then a thorough research of the tune parameters and many nights datalogging one tune change at a time, however slight. I put on 5,000 miles last year for tuning only.

As of today, I have only one datalog left to see if my final change to my file works. I may be premature posting this now and maybe should have waited, but I am very excited that this will work, but still super nervous. If this works, I will seek a patent.

Why did I want e85 fans to read this?
Methanol and e85 have all the same benefits, but the difference in drawbacks are huge. I'm willing to bet that most e85 users do not know most of the drawbacks, none of which you have with methanol. And if you knew, some would probably not use it. So if my design works and I am able to patent it, this will give the e85 a serious run for the money.

I have also given thought to marketing my design, but I would have to make some serious commitments to protect it, just like professional tuners do to their tunes they sell. I could easily market my circuit without revealing its components, and it is easy to install. The rest of the changes are all in the tune. I would probably market this with the company I get all my methanol components from, but this is all just thoughts and wishful thinking at this time.

More than enough for now... the things a retired engineer does....
 
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HKusp

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I don't run e85 and I have never run methanol. I have never even entertained the idea of tuning my own car. That being said, I am intrigued by your post and excited for you.
 

geoffmt

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Interesting! Looking forward to hearing how the tune worked. All the benefits without the drawbacks would be a big seller


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CobraBob

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Well, Willie, you've definitely covered all the bases, research and analysis wise. I definitely think you're on to something big. I'm looking forward to hearing how your datalog goes. And I'm also looking forward to hearing you implement and market your (patented) system. Very intriguing.
 

Willie

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Subscribing.
E85 fan here for many years, so I’ll be a tough sell.
That said, I look forward to giving it a complete evaluation.
-J

Hey J, happy you joined. I will do my best to keep this thread current. One of my friends is a devout e85 fan and we've started discussing this as of yesterday. It will be interesting to see what he ends up doing. I think I should list here all the pros and cons of both and let the people make an unbiased decision... What do you think?

Well, Willie, you've definitely covered all the bases, research and analysis wise. I definitely think you're on to something big. I'm looking forward to hearing how your datalog goes. And I'm also looking forward to hearing you implement and market your (patented) system. Very intriguing.

Thanks Bob. If things go well, I don't know how to even go about going down the patent trail, never having done it. Haven't you?

Can't get E85 or slingshots in N.J., but looking forward to updates on your project..

UPDATE from last night.
I was able to get in a little datalog time, between bands of rain. Not a full datalog, but sufficiently enough to see what I needed to see. The result is (drum roll) >>

IT WORKS!!!

For my first attempt, I chose fueling values in the tune based on.... nothing but an uninformed but educated guess. My AFR was so rich that the engine was sputtering. Actually, this was great because it told me it works. With that datalog, I recalculated much better values (I hope) and hope to try this today before it reaches 110 deg.

I'm so excited about this I could not sleep well last night and got up really early this morning. It is sunny and plan on going out datalogging. Although last night was a success, I need to get a full rpm pass and try different fueling values in the tune to verify that I can adjust it (with no other changes).

So far, this is looking very, very good.

Willie
 
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biminiLX

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Great to hear.
I would agree on making a case of pros/cons and letting people decide.
I still think it’ll come down to convenience as you at both are perfect examples.
You only have E54 available in Arizona and I have 3 good E85 stations within 5 minutes that consistently test E85 or higher.
After seeing E85 tests making as much as 116 octane leaded racing fuels on boosted apps, it’s hard not to run corn for me personally. And that means pump E85 for cruising and not minding the tax for C85/X85/Ignite 90 etc for track and dyno events.
My lower intake has NOS spray bars, could I potentially use those for a meth setup?
Looking forward to your results.
Last thing, please consider a consult with a patent attorney. Because ‘patent pending’ only goes so far.
-J
 

Willie

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Won't be able to datalog this morning, wifey reminded me of some "family duties". Arghhh.. Afternoons are out of the question, so hopefully the monsoon rains won't move in tonight. It's a perfect night, being Sunday.

I would agree on making a case of pros/cons and letting people decide.

I think so too, but also think I'll wait until I'm done with my testing, just so we know this could possibly be a viable option. It is not until I'm 100 percent successful.

I still think it’ll come down to convenience as you at both are perfect examples.
You only have E54 available in Arizona and I have 3 good E85 stations within 5 minutes that consistently test E85 or higher.

Agreed.
We do have e85 here. In fact, there's both a Speedway (not for me) and Chevron both within 5 miles of my house, and both sell both e85 and 100 octane gas. My friend, whom I've already mentioned, said to me yesterday that his last fill of e85 tested at 80 percent.

After seeing E85 tests making as much as 116 octane leaded racing fuels on boosted apps, it’s hard not to run corn for me personally. And that means pump E85 for cruising and not minding the tax for C85/X85/Ignite 90 etc for track and dyno events.

Every individual's case is gonna be different. The final decision on anything, yes or no, left or right, etc., has to be determined by that individual's circumstances. And like you, my individual circumstances and past experience has led me down this path. There was no such thing as corn back in the 1990's when I started with methanol.

My lower intake has NOS spray bars, could I potentially use those for a meth setup?

Good question. I have only an educated guess. I would say yes, but would need to know the orifice's total size to know the volume being sprayed. As far as the dispersion pattern, I'm sure it would work because it definitely does its job with nitrous.

Last thing, please consider a consult with a patent attorney. Because ‘patent pending’ only goes so far.
-J

Yes, thank you.

Willie
 

gimmie11s

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Long read just to say really nothing at all other than you are working on a tune for your car.

Ill check back in when there is something to read about?
 

Willie

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Long read just to say really nothing at all other than you are working on a tune for your car.

Very long and I apologize for that, but felt background was necessary with a touch of humor. If you can't laugh, you're not living.

Yes, it's only a tune, and a bit of hardware. I had to change a mere 17 tables, most of which pro tuners never need to touch, in order to "convert" a single tune PCM into a dual mode PCM with no internal mods, switched automatically when the situation dictates, insuring absolute safety. Nothing more than anyone else could do.

Ill check back in when there is something to read about?

Whatever floats your boat. See ya later, maybe.

Willie
 

me32

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Very interesting, ill keep on the updates. I run E85 too as i have a few pumps available to me in town.
 

Willie

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I was able to capture a couple of datalogs tonight. The final result: It works better than I ever thought it could. On my initial attempt at tune values to pull fueling, I had to take a guess. Since then, I now see in a few other PIDs that allow me to use them to accurately calculate what these values should be, given a target AFR. I tried with two different values tonight and both were spot on.

One last item for this thread. I will put together a concise list of pros and cons of e85 and methanol and post it here soon.

I am now finished with test and tune. Now the research begins on the patenting process. I think I will also dabble a touch in market research too.

HOW IT WORKS

Arm the methanol (turn on the gain knob). A digital voltmeter will turn on and will allow you to set it exactly in the same position every time. This value determined by experimenting. Arming the system can be done regardless of engine running or not, idling or moving. It doesn't matter.

The first thing you'll notice is your engine temp gauge zeros out. This is your visual confirmation that the PCM has recognized methanol system is armed and ready.

That's it... Enjoy the ride! When you turn off the methanol, the temp gauge returns to normal, alongside everything else.

Willie
 
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CobraBob

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Thanks Bob. If things go well, I don't know how to even go about going down the patent trail, never having done it. Haven't you?

Willie

No, I never pursued a patent. I looked into it, but it's too expensive, and sometimes the design you're patenting is too easy to overcome.
 

DSG2003Mach1

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No, I never pursued a patent. I looked into it, but it's too expensive, and sometimes the design you're patenting is too easy to overcome.

Especially if you want to cover world wide, it gets stupid expensive real fast. The other expensive issue would be defending it - if a bigger company wants to bleed you out in court they will do just that. Places like China do not give a damn about your patent.
 

Willie

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No, I never pursued a patent. I looked into it, but it's too expensive, and sometimes the design you're patenting is too easy to overcome.

Yep, and might just be the case with me too. We'll see how it goes.

Especially if you want to cover world wide, it gets stupid expensive real fast. The other expensive issue would be defending it - if a bigger company wants to bleed you out in court they will do just that. Places like China do not give a damn about your patent.

China! Enough said. Thanks for the info.

HOW IT WORKS
Arm the methanol (turn on the gain knob). A digital voltmeter will turn on and will allow you to set it exactly in the same position every time. This value determined by experimenting. Arming the system can be done regardless of engine running or not, idling or moving. It doesn't matter.

I mentioned this for a reason. By arming the methanol, two things happen. Obviously it powers up the methanol controller, but it also establishes a "link" to the PCM. This "link" tells the PCM to instantaneously accesses portions within the tune file that is used specifically and exclusively when the methanol is flowing. I had a concern of things not working correctly if you armed the methanol knob while the engine was running (PCM working); that you had to arm it with the engine not running because of a possible hiccup as the PCM switches values. Fortunately, this is not the case, which is very good news. If you arm the system while idling, there is momentary 400 rpm increase, then returns to normal. If you arm it while driving, there are no symptoms. Same results when turning it off.

So yes, you can arm it as you are cruising down the freeway and you get picked on by that Challenger. You don't have to yell at him to say, "Yeah, I'll run you but I need to pull over first."

Willie
 
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Willie

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....I had to change a mere 17 tables....

I threw this number out there off the top of my head and got me curious as I've never counted, until now:

Changed:
19 total tables,
6 normalizer tables, with
268 individual cell values, some easy, most were not.

Willie
 
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Willie

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....most of which pro tuners never need to touch, in order to "convert" a single tune PCM into a dual mode PCM with no internal mods, switched automatically when the situation dictates, insuring absolute safety.

This is a hypothetical conversation with a pro tuner. >>
(You) I'd like to use methanol. Can you write a tune for this?
(Tuner) Sorry, we cannot take responsibility for bad things that could happen.
(You) May I ask specifically what bad things?
(Tuner) Because if the pump fails, you will explode the motor and we cannot take any liability for this.
(You) Because of a lean condition?
(Tuner) Yes.
(You) Let me try to understand this in detail. It would run lean because the tune calls for a certain amount of gas, based on methanol being used, and if the methanol stops for any reason, the motor is not getting sufficient fuel (mix of both).
(Tuner) Exactly.
(You) So there is no way to make one tune file for both? In other words, one file that uses fueling for gas only AND when methanol is used?
(Tuner) Not possible.

This will be the answer from every tuner you ask, guaranteed. If you find a tuner that IS willing, I'd like to know who he is as I would definitely contact him.

(You) Are there any ways to use methanol then, or just forget about it?
(Tuner) Yes. You will have to ditch the factory PCM, wiring, etc. and go with aftermarket. Otherwise, ditch it.

Perfect for a race car or resto mod, but a street driven, emissions compliant vehicle? Don't think so. And WHAT IF you said to the tuner,

(You) Well, I know a guy who's been working on this and he just posted that he's figured out a way.
(Tuner) To use the factory PCM?
(You) He says so.

I assume his reply will be denial (No way possible.) or curiosity (Do you know how he did this?). Shoot an e-mail or two to your favorite tuner. I would definitely like to know the replies you get.

Willie
 

Weather Man

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For the number you would sell, just don't see how protecting the idea would ever pay. Keep in mind you could attract attention from the EPA, unfun.
 

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