How will Ford "Raptor" respond to Rebel TRX V8? GM lurking too.

kaz109 said:

I don't think there is a single person saying they think it will be a flop. I just think ppl might feel this will be the hellcat of the truck world( big heavy and fast on pavment) and for some that is all they want. Where as the raptor has been proven to be great all around ( fast on paventment and great off roading)

Time will tell but I can't wait to drive one. The only thing I am 100% sure the TRX will be better at the raptor is sound and interior .

Click to expand...

this I agree with. I think FCA isn’t stupid. I think they know the majority of people aren’t out there really pushing it hard and they more so want to brag numbers and have something that looks good, sounds good, and goes fast more often then not.

personally I hope it can hold its own to the raptor off road but that’s a lot of power to manage so we’ll see. I’ve been impressed with my 19 ram having previously preferred ford offerings. As much as I’d like to jump to a TRX though I just can’t fathom buying a near 100k truck with worse fuel economy to daily 100 miles a day.

I'm just concerned over how quiet Ram has been regarding the TRX. Maybe soon they'll start the social media blitz/cool commercials.
But nothing has leaked over the truck being offroad/testing. Just some spy shots of the interior and a rear-side view of the truck without camo.
It's supposed to enter production Q4 2020, so that's in 2 months...

I've seen a base price being floated at 56k, which would be a great entry price for a bare bones 707hp truck.

RedVenom48 said:

I am corrected, the 2010 model year was the only Ford offered the 5.4 3v and 6.2. I for some reason thought that the 5.0 was offered as well 2011+, but I am mistaken.

Still, the argument you make for this is that obvious demand be damned, no Coyote in the Raptor because FP and God have decreed it so. No one wants a different engine in the GT500... because it's a V8 pumping out 700+ boosted HP.

No one wants a 392 Hemi in a Hellcat Challenger/Charger because it's already got a V8 Hellcat putting out over 700hp as well.

Ram is about to prove that people will demand a product, and FCA will yet again deliver what the people want. In this case, FCA teased a Hellcat powered Rebel. Ram saw how fervent demand was for it and they said "yes".

As for why Ford missed the boat, they could have launched an N/A Coyote Raptor and everyone would have raved. Owners would have taken the cue from the aftermarket and installed SC kits or TT kits and dominated the Rebel out of existence.

Instead, Ford gave Ram the opportunity to up the ante and here we are with the Hellcat powered TRX.

Click to expand...

I guess you missed the overall point of my post, you can't name another manufacturer that offers two engine options. Regardless of what you think " everybody" wants that is not backed up by the data. More Gen 2 Raptors with the V6 were produced in gen 1 and guess what the sales number backed it up with the Gen 2 outselling te the Gen Raptor 1 by a land slide. That means that the customer base that says they will not buy a Raptor if it does not have a V8 in it is much smaller than you think. Gen 2 were selling at 20k over MSRP when released and still to this day some ppl are spending 5k to 10k over MSRP for 2020's

So I will ask you again what other manufacturers do you know that offer to engine options because of very small group of its Market once a different option?

Blk04L said:

What would you ask SVT Engineering?

Ford Svt had a sit down 7 years ago with then current owners about the Raptor. A question was brought up about putting an ecoboost into a raptor at some point.

Click to expand...

I was in a focus group for Raptor owners, maybe 1.5 years ago or so. Pretty sure that the Tremor is what came out of that Focus group.

DriftwoodSVT said:

I was in a focus group for Raptor owners, maybe 1.5 years ago or so. Pretty sure that the Tremor is what came out of that Focus group.

Click to expand...

With that said why do you think they chose to put that motor in a work truck instead of a performance truck like the raptor?

I am assuming that every single person in your focus group asked for that motor in a raptor

kaz109 said:

I guess you missed the overall point of my post, you can't name another manufacturer that offers two engine options. Regardless of what you think " everybody" wants that is not backed up by the data. More Gen 2 Raptors with the V6 were produced in gen 1 and guess what the sales number backed it up with the Gen 2 outselling te the Gen Raptor 1 by a land slide. That means that the customer base that says they will not buy a Raptor if it does not have a V8 in it is much smaller than you think. Gen 2 were selling at 20k over MSRP when released and still to this day some ppl are spending 5k to 10k over MSRP for 2020's

So I will ask you again what other manufacturers do you know that offer to engine options because of very small group of its Market once a different option?

Click to expand...

Tl;dr

Frankly for the sake of this argument, I dont give a flying **** what other manufacturers do. There is a clear precedent and demand for a V8 in the current gen Raptor. Period. Justify it all you want, point to sales figures all you want.

If Ford offered the Coyote and 3.5 EB side by side, the vast majority of sales would be the Coyote V8. Which is why they didn't offer it to protect their investment in Ecoboost V6s.

I'm not even trying to knock the EB. Wife wants a Bronco and it's going to be the 2.7 EB. It's a vehicle I'm looking forward to. IF THERE WERE A COYOTE OPTION WE WOULD BE GETTING THE V8.

The point that I and several others are making is that in this Ford halo truck, PEOPLE WANT A V8 IN THE DAMN THING WHETHER ITS AN OPTION OR THE ONLY ENGINE OFFERED. WITH AN OPTION AVAILABLE, THE MARKET WILL DECIDE WHAT IS THE SUPERIOR ENGINE CHOICE IS.

Enjoy.

RedVenom48 said:

Tl;dr

Frankly for the sake of this argument, I dont give a flying **** what other manufacturers do. There is a clear precedent and demand for a V8 in the current gen Raptor. Period. Justify it all you want, point to sales figures all you want.

If Ford offered the Coyote and 3.5 EB side by side, the vast majority of sales would be the Coyote V8. Which is why they didn't offer it to protect their investment in Ecoboost V6s.

I'm not even trying to knock the EB. Wife wants a Bronco and it's going to be the 2.7 EB. It's a vehicle I'm looking forward to. IF THERE WERE A COYOTE OPTION WE WOULD BE GETTING THE V8.

The point that I and several others are making is that in this Ford halo truck, PEOPLE WANT A V8 IN THE DAMN THING WHETHER ITS AN OPTION OR THE ONLY ENGINE OFFERED. WITH AN OPTION AVAILABLE, THE MARKET WILL DECIDE WHAT IS THE SUPERIOR ENGINE CHOICE IS.

Enjoy.

Click to expand...

I understand what you and everybody else is saying ....and this isn't an argument just a discussion among enthusiasts. You and others aren't saying anything different from what other ppl do with other car companies. My point was you are wanting Ford to do something no other car company does.

I know you aren't bad mouthing the EB nor am I had mouthing a V8 ....... it just makes zero sense for Ford to do it from a business perspective when looking at the sales numbers from the last gen Raptor.

kaz109 said:

I know you aren't bad mouthing the EB nor am I had mouthing a V8 ....... it just makes zero sense for Ford to do it from a business perspective when looking at the sales numbers from the last gen Raptor.

Click to expand...

If they offered two choices, the 7.3 or the 3.5EB, how do you think the take rate would look? They both would get pathetically bad fuel mileage, and would venture a guess that it would not factor heavily into the decision.

GTSpartan said:

If they offered two choices, the 7.3 or the 3.5EB, how do you think the take rate would look? They both would get pathetically bad fuel mileage, and would venture a guess that it would not factor heavily into the decision.

Click to expand...

I don’t think my truck gets bad mpg. I stomp on it frequently and get around 14 mpg city and cruising get 18mpg. If they offered both the 7.3 and 3.5EB I would go with the one that has better performance.

RedVenom48 said:

The point that I and several others are making is that in this Ford halo truck, PEOPLE WANT A V8 IN THE DAMN THING WHETHER ITS AN OPTION OR THE ONLY ENGINE OFFERED. WITH AN OPTION AVAILABLE, THE MARKET WILL DECIDE WHAT IS THE SUPERIOR ENGINE CHOICE IS.

Enjoy.

Click to expand...

Didn’t this play out with the regular F150 already? Regardless of what you put in caps the market has already decided that the EB wins over the Coyote.

We got all you guys in blasting the EB for unreliability yet screaming for the Coyote. Hasn’t the gen3 Coyote been plagued with issues?

GTSpartan said:

If they offered two choices, the 7.3 or the 3.5EB, how do you think the take rate would look? They both would get pathetically bad fuel mileage, and would venture a guess that it would not factor heavily into the decision.

Click to expand...

I think the 7.3 liter without sell it probably 10 to 1 and I think that's why Ford did not opt for that motor in the Raptor. Hear me out on this one.....

As currently constructed the 7.3 is not a performance motor it is a low maintenance work horse motor ( do not take that statement as me saying something negative about it) which means it will be the lesser of the two performance-wise. So on the streets the Raptor will have a misrepresentation of its full performance.

Most ppl buy things for the numbers nowadays so why would Ford have a lesser version of its top performer running around on the streets. It is the same logic that all other car companies use when making their top cars. It's the reason why the Audi R8 no longer has the lighter V8 and a 6-speed manual. People threw a fit when the Supra wasn't offered in a manual, Alfa Romeo quadrifoglio what's supposed to be offered in a manual all the way up until the delivery day when it wasn't and people throw a fit then. Hell look at the new GT500 you think people aren't going to fit because there's no manual option?

I understand that people in the truck World care more about Sound then performance and the idea is a truck is supposed to have a V8. Trust me I get it , and I would be one of the ones top for a V8 if there was no performance difference, but right now they do not currently have a V8 that will outperform the Raptor EcoBoost ( well except for the new GT500 motor) so I would be happier with a EcoBoost or powerboost motor.


If enough people cared as @RedVenom48 says then the Gen 2 wouldn't of outsold the Gen 1 , dealers wouldn't of got 20k over MSRP and Ford wouldn't have a choice but to go back to a V8... Porsche did the same thing with the GT3 in 2015 only offering it in a PDK and guess what by 2018 they offered a GT3 Touring that had a six-speed manual because there was actually enough ppl that didn't buy due to being PDK only.

kaz109 said:

I think the 7.3 liter without sell it probably 10 to 1 and I think that's why Ford did not opt for that motor in the Raptor. Hear me out on this one.....

If enough people cared as @RedVenom48 says then the Gen 2 wouldn't of outsold the Gen 1 , dealers wouldn't of got 20k over MSRP and Ford wouldn't have a choice but to go back to a V8... Porsche did the same thing with the GT3 in 2015 only offering it in a PDK and guess what by 2018 they offered a GT3 Touring that had a six-speed manual because there was actually enough ppl that didn't buy due to being PDK only.

Click to expand...

Hard to compare sales, as it is a specialty vehicle, limited on the supply side, not demand. When they began production, they only committed to building max 3 per hour. To further validate it was more of a supply side limitation in the early days was forward days of supply generally hovered around 15 days, which is considered sold out.

Part of the reason, and some of you will not like this, is purely do to Ford's commitment to the EB line of engines. It's an effective branding, marketing, and PR tool, not necessarily driven by which engine is the "best", or preferred by the consumer.

GTSpartan said:

Part of the reason, and some of you will not like this, is purely do to Ford's commitment to the EB line of engines. It's a PR tool, not necessarily driven by which engine is the "best", or preferred by the consumer.

Click to expand...

That's all it is, plain and simple...

Hell, I'd argue the delay in the GT500 was from Fords engineers inability to cram a 650hp V6 into the S550.

Ford offers a plethora of engines combinations in all the F150's... Except the Raptor, and as mentioned they wanted to squash any possible arguments as to which version is better or has higher sales.

Buy your peasant spec 2.7EB F150... It's just like a Raptor.

GTSpartan said:

Hard to compare sales, as it is a specialty vehicle, limited on the supply side, not demand. When they began production, they only committed to building max 3 per hour. To further validate it was more of a supply side limitation in the early days was forward days of supply generally hovered around 15 days, which is considered sold out.

Part of the reason, and some of you will not like this, is purely do to Ford's commitment to the EB line of engines. It's an effective branding, marketing, and PR tool, not necessarily driven by which engine is the "best", or preferred by the consumer.

Click to expand...

As I stated before , to me it doesn't matter which engine they chose, I just know as a brand it makes zero business sense to two engine options for your help vehicle....which is why it has NEVER been done before.

kaz109 said:

As I stated before , to me it doesn't matter which engine they chose, I just know as a brand it makes zero business sense to two engine options for your help vehicle....which is why it has NEVER been done before.

Click to expand...

Bump the 7.3 power to similar 3.5HO levels and charge $2,500 for the option (much less expensive to produce as well). Margin accretive options are a very good thing. Pure profit.

I bet 75% of buyers would check the box, and instantly forget any reservations they may have had the first time the key is turned and it fires up.

ssj4sadie said:

Didn’t this play out with the regular F150 already? Regardless of what you put in caps the market has already decided that the EB wins over the Coyote.

We got all you guys in blasting the EB for unreliability yet screaming for the Coyote. Hasn’t the gen3 Coyote been plagued with issues?

Click to expand...

I see it as a different market. I believe most people buying an EB want easy out of the box. You take a performance off road truck like the Raptor and clearly has demand for 2 engine choices. There are people on this forum that have explicitely stated this. So, offer 2 options. It's not hard at all to do with the F150 already engineered with one. An EB for those that want a turn key truck. Coyote for people that want a V8 or to make a boosted V8 monster. The Coyote Raptor market would probably be like the Mustang market. How many would buy the Coyote and buy a Whipple, Roush or VMP TVS kit? Happens all the time with Mustang GTs and GT350s. How many would take it on as a Twin Turbo project? A few I'd imagine.

Kaz is trying to beat to death the point of there never being a manufacture to offer 2 engines in a top end model so Ford should never. Ram is about to prove that a boosted V8 will sell like hotcakes in the high performance off road truck segment and force Ford's hand.

Kinda like Ford is forcing Jeep to actually have to consider selling their Wrangler with a Hemi as a factory option to attempt to keep market share from the Bronco.

The difference is that Raptor came with a V8 option Gen 1. There is a precedent there. Point blank. With that, I've said my peace and I cant wait to see the TRX go head to head with Raptor.

Blk04L said:

I'm just concerned over how quiet Ram has been regarding the TRX. Maybe soon they'll start the social media blitz/cool commercials.
But nothing has leaked over the truck being offroad/testing. Just some spy shots of the interior and a rear-side view of the truck without camo.
It's supposed to enter production Q4 2020, so that's in 2 months...

I've seen a base price being floated at 56k, which would be a great entry price for a bare bones 707hp truck.

Click to expand...

58K OTD?

Obviously a market for it otherwise these guys would be out of business. V8 Raptor conversions:

https://paxpower.com/raptor/

GTSpartan said:

Bump the 7.3 power to similar 3.5HO levels and charge $2,500 for the option (much less expensive to produce as well). Margin accretive options are a very good thing. Pure profit.

I bet 75% of buyers would check the box, and instantly forget any reservations they may have had the first time the key is turned and it fires up.

Click to expand...

You're probably right, I'm sure it's working for the other car companies that different engine options in their halo vehicle.....

kaz109 said:

You're probably right, I'm sure it's working for the other car companies that different engine options in their halo vehicle.....

Click to expand...

The GT350 and 500 are virtually the same cars minus the drive trains, so I'm not sure why we are getting so hung up on this whole concept of having only one engine option. Corvette's been doing it for decades as well. They just slap a tiny little plastic badge on it, and it's magically a different car.

These are huge profit centers for them. Call it a damn Raptor R if that makes people feel it's a super special version of their halo car.