alright what did i get myself into? ms3 pro

98termiswap

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After all these years i have had it with relying on getting a tuner to do my shit then having to go back several times for revisions

i ordered the ms3 pro plug and play for my o3 cobra
i have been watching lots of videos and love the auto tune feature it has

i also ordered the perfect tuning gauge so i can watch a few things on it,
also went with a duel innovate wide band, ,my question is will this be able to read both 02 or will it basically be monitoring bank 2 and tuning off bank 1 ?

also with the perfect tuning gauge work like my aeroforce and let me datalog my charge temps and stuff? and switch to different ones

i am big blower built 4.6 with fic 1200 injectors and e85, how difficult is this going to be for someone with zero tuning experience ?
 

01yellercobra

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Skip the speed density and run the MAF. You'll end up using the VE tables to trim the MAF curve. I know it sounds weird, but it'll make sense once you start tuning the car.

It'll read both widebands and average out the readings between them. But you can set it up to tune off whichever one you want. Make sure the widebands you use have CAN bus ability.

You don't log with the Perfect Tuning gauge, but you can watch whatever the MS3 outputs. I mostly watch both widebands and the coolant and inlet temps. I can scroll back a page to check ethanol percentage and a couple other things. I set it up to be a shift light as well, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet.

The biggest thing is to make sure you input the correct injector values. It's all based off that. Checking the timing is kind of a pain with our blower drive. I ended up making a mark on the bottom of the engine to compare the timing with.
 

SecondhandSnake

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Skip the speed density and run the MAF. You'll end up using the VE tables to trim the MAF curve. I know it sounds weird, but it'll make sense once you start tuning the car.

The biggest thing is to make sure you input the correct injector values. It's all based off that. Checking the timing is kind of a pain with our blower drive. I ended up making a mark on the bottom of the engine to compare the timing with.

Curious why you advocate for the MAF over speed density? I was going to throw my known MAF curve into it and use that to populate my VE tables, hoping that would be a little smoother in performance.

And what do you check the timing for? Just verification of actual matching what it reports?
 

01yellercobra

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Curious why you advocate for the MAF over speed density? I was going to throw my known MAF curve into it and use that to populate my VE tables, hoping that would be a little smoother in performance.

And what do you check the timing for? Just verification of actual matching what it reports?

IMO speed density is fine if you're driving within a certain area. If you start dealing with altitude changes and different weather you have to tweak the tune for those areas. I drive my car to Az and Vegas and there's enough change it causes some funkiness in the tune. I could figure it out and tweak the tune, but generally if I'm in those areas the last place I want to be is in front of my computer. The MAF takes care of all of that. The car actually ran better with the MAF in the start up tune than it did with all the tweaks I had done with the speed density. Just find an unscaled MAF curve for your current MAF and populate the table in TunerStudio. Then use VE Analyzer to tweak VE1 and it'll come in quick. I saw where one guy made an Excel spread sheet that too the VE1 numbers and converted it to a correction for the MAF curve, but that's way over my head.

You have to lock the timing and check it to make sure the phasing is correct. Basically you lock the timing at 10 degrees and there's an adjustment you make in the software to make sure it lines up with the 10 degree mark on the balancer. I'm pretty sure my setting is different than Josh's (@GodStang) so that shows you that each set up is different.
 
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SecondhandSnake

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I thought MS supported using a second BAP sensor that essentially lets it reference atmospheric pressure and eliminate that sort of issue. I might need to revisit the wiring diagram/features for the PNP version.

I was expecting some of the other tradeoffs of MAP vs MAF, like MAF providing for a better driveability with large cams, while MAP is more boost friendly and allows for less restriction. I've got a noisy MAF signal due to MAF placement with my weird compound setup and thought MAP might help in that regard, as well as letting me remove my flow screen. Not to mention that at least with the stock strategy there's all that load tuning with respect to atmospheric pressure (if you use it.) As far as my current tune goes, I've got it well documented, complete with scaling, so I should be able to dump that data into TunerStudio and be damn close. I might even keep it on MAF in the interim.

When you say phasing, are you talking basically adjusting an offset between the crank trigger and true cylinder position so that your spark is accurate relative to the true cylinder position? Has it been an appreciable difference between the two?
 

01yellercobra

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I think you can run an external baro sensor. But the internal one works pretty well. Part of the speed density is having to tune for the weather and altitude. This is my first time dealing with SD and the research I've found says you'll need to make the tweaks. If I only drove my car around here it would have been totally fine. But going 300 miles north or west made a difference. Mostly in the idle quality. I drove it to Vegas last year on SD and knocked down 20mpg. But once I got to Vegas the idle had a surge to it. It ran fine otherwise, but the surge bugged me. Haven't had that problem since going back to MAF. I never removed the MAF from the intake so it was just a matter of plugging it in and turning it on in the software. You can always try both ways and see which you prefer. I know Josh has some decent cams and his car does pretty well with the MAF.

Correct about the crank angle. Mine was about 3 degrees off IIRC. I'd have to double check. It took longer to set up for the check than actually doing it.
 

SecondhandSnake

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It looks like according to the 2018 MS3 Pro Ultimate manual, a second BAP sensor can be used for real time barometric pressure correction. Without it, it uses the key on MAP sensor reading as atmospheric pressure. Any change from that due to altitude or weather will make it run poorly, but with the BAP sensor it will compensate for it and shouldn't see those issues. I didn't plan on taking mine on long road trips, but it's good to know.

If I do stay MAF I'll have to look and see what it does for load calculation (relative to the Ford software) as that can be impacted by altitude as well, though probably not as noticeably.

And thanks for the mention about checking for phasing. I would have just thrown my old timing values in and ran it without even thinking about it.
 

01yellercobra

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What was recommended to me is to use the MAF for fueling and the MAP for spark. So that's how I set it up and it seems to be working well. In the begining someone recommended using two fuel tables to increase resolution. But since I went flex fuel I have one set for 91 and one set for E85. Same with the spark tables.
 

joethefordguy

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I'm completely new to tuning. I have an 04 Expedition police package with the 5.4L 2V; it's a 4x4.
I bought an SCT Livewire TS+ tuner in anticipation of the work I'll be doing on this truck; I want to improve low end torque and get better gas mileage - it's averging about 11 mpg over the last 10k miles.
I don't understand all the "gauges" my tuner reports. Can anyone tell me what the MAF count is counting? I do know what the MAF is and what it does, I just don't know what SCT is counting for this display. FWIW, I asked SCT. Here's my question to them, and their answer (in bold):
"MAF counts – Assuming this is the Mass Airflow Sensor, what is MAF counts telling me? Honestly I myself am not sure what the counts are. I do know that they go up and down with the amount of airflow past the MAF sensor."

so, Here I am. any input will be appreciated. thanks for your time.
jg
 

DSG2003Mach1

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I'm completely new to tuning. I have an 04 Expedition police package with the 5.4L 2V; it's a 4x4.
I bought an SCT Livewire TS+ tuner in anticipation of the work I'll be doing on this truck; I want to improve low end torque and get better gas mileage - it's averging about 11 mpg over the last 10k miles.
I don't understand all the "gauges" my tuner reports. Can anyone tell me what the MAF count is counting? I do know what the MAF is and what it does, I just don't know what SCT is counting for this display. FWIW, I asked SCT. Here's my question to them, and their answer (in bold):
"MAF counts – Assuming this is the Mass Airflow Sensor, what is MAF counts telling me? Honestly I myself am not sure what the counts are. I do know that they go up and down with the amount of airflow past the MAF sensor."

so, Here I am. any input will be appreciated. thanks for your time.
jg

probably best to start a new thread, these conversations are gonna go way different directions. Plenty of people that can help though
 

joethefordguy

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i tried. i can't find the link/button/ whatever to start a new thread or post. I've sent a request for help to the admin, but if you know...
 

03cobra#694

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i tried. i can't find the link/button/ whatever to start a new thread or post. I've sent a request for help to the admin, but if you know...
See the post new thread button?
DF2DE6E8-0FE9-4F09-ADBA-B59903D59D3E.jpg
DF2DE6E8-0FE9-4F09-ADBA-B59903D59D3E.jpg
 

98termiswap

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ok, so i got the innovate duel bank wide band, and i have the innovate flex fuel sensor, i am a bit overwhelmed looking at how to connect this stuff to the ecu, lol i got to learn how to connect all this stuff, and then learn how to tune all at once, i hope i dont screw anything up lol
 

01yellercobra

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ok, so i got the innovate duel bank wide band, and i have the innovate flex fuel sensor, i am a bit overwhelmed looking at how to connect this stuff to the ecu, lol i got to learn how to connect all this stuff, and then learn how to tune all at once, i hope i dont screw anything up lol

Does the AEM use the CAN bus? That's the easiest way to go.

There's an input in the AUX plug just for the flex fuel sensor. My suggestion is to not use the 12vdc from the ECU. Use a separate 12vdc from a different power source. If you have it wired right it'll show up pretty quickly.
 

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