01 cobra vs 2000 camaro SS? who do you think would win

[Jroc]

They are relatively light but still, 600+ lbs vs 400lbs is a big difference

WTF are you talking? We're not discussing Terminator longblocks.(which BTW Ford rates at 655 lbs) If I remember correctly GM Performance Parts claims their LS3 weighs 415 lbs were FR claims their Coyote motor weighs 444 lbs. That's a 29 lb difference, and I know your about to go on about fully dressed motors or whatever but both motors have to be dress and I doubt there is a huge difference between them.

The roll over comment was a joke...kinda. But I pulled more mod motor heads in my career than I care to remember. Dropping an LS cylinder head onto a block in a vehicle is easy, from any position. Dropping mod motor head, especially a 4v onto a block in car is akin to an IRON BBC/BBF head, and you need to be ready for it :lol1:. I've done more than a few Aviator and Marauder heads, and with the secondary timing stuff installed they were 70lbs each! An assembled LS1 head is 24lbs.

Edit: I haven't pulled the top end off of a new 5.0 yet. But with the VCT I doubt they're lighter

I must of been on some drugs or something.(and I don't use drugs) I picked up the heads off a 01 Cobra motor that came with a Teksid that had a spun bearing and was being torn down. They sure didn't feel like you were trying to lift a concrete bag or anything. That's been a while though so maybe I'm just forgetting, but I do remember thinking they were a lot lighter than I thought they would be. I sure don't think they weighed anything close to a iron BB head. Hell I didn't even think they weighed as much as a iron SB head. There is quite a noticeable weight difference between a iron head and an aluminum one and as I'm sure you know a BB topend is pretty damn big.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Cammers barely fit in mustangs man, lighten up. That's my main talking point.

Yes, a coyote is lighter, $7-8k, but lighter than a run of the mill $500-1500 used 4.6 or $2500 teksid.

A teksid would also be 90lbs lighter so 475~500lbs. A coyote is probably lighter still because of newer tech/lighter materials. If you don't want ac, cooling fan, power steering, etc then ya it'll weigh even less but be a useless car. You could probably get a teksid 4.6 down to 475lbs, maybe even 455lbs with a sheet metal intake and some fab work with abs plastic/etc for the inlet. Shorty headers vs cast manifolds is probably another 10-20#'s saved.

I love 4v heads, I wasn't bashing them, but for a tiny engine bay like an s2k, miata, or fd, I wouldn't even bother trying to fit a cammer, such a nightmare especially since probably no one makes a kmember/cradle to fit one and honestly I don't know how it could fit when an ls1 barely fits.

Unless you didn't want a brake booster or power steering, I don't know how you could fit a cammer.

Here's an fd, good luck even in this engine bay

To me, dohc is awesome for a boosted application, especially turbo. So much control. Late model lsany and lt1's ohv are great for light, compact huge na power.

These tiny cars have factory motors that weigh 185-275lbs if that, throwing in a 400# motor will make them very nose heavy. Adding another 50-100+ on top of that, for a smaller displacement motor with less low end torque, more weight high up, and a design that is a pita to wedge into the engine bay would be a moot proposition to me.

I'd rather throw a wild coyote build (turbo, 5-10psi) in a fairline or 70's lincoln cruiser or an na coyote in an original restomod 70 mustang, faux boss 302 in a way without devaluating an actual boss.. Maybe even an na 5.8 2013 cobra mill with aggressive cams, short runner, and 550hp+ in a restomod 70 stang.

My $.02

I love coyotes and wanna build one to replace my 5.4 when it lets go in years to come but they don't work well IMHO with tiny cars.

 

[blkvenm97]

op....make sure you practice a lot....learn how to launch and make SURE you hit 7 GRAND on EVERY SHIFT....the 4v likes to rev so by God make sure you rev it. you do have your hands full....but if you can drive fairly decent I don't see any reason why you can't jump out from the start and get enough of a lead to where the ls car isn't going to come blowing by you at 70 mph like it seems some in this thread think

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

*removed.

 

[Gravik]

I had a 2002 SS with the 6 speed, but I didn't leave it stock for very long. If it's a manual, it probably has 3.42 gears in it. Not very hard to launch. He should dyno stock around 285 or so. What he needs is a set of longtubes, 3.73s or 4.11s, a nice little cam and a decent tune.

I hate bench racing though. Take it to a track and make a few passes and find out.

Plenty of stock LS1 F Body's putting down 300rwhp

 

[mrlrd1]

Granted they are bigger and heavier but I think a lot of good came from the 4V head. I think it alllows Ford to use smaller displacement motors (4.6/5.0) and still make good Hp and trq which rivals larger displacement motors.

I also think the overhead cam motors rev higher and faster because of not having to transfer the lift of the cam through a push rod and rocker. It also allows some sort of vairable cam timing to be used to produce more power from a smaller displacement motor. (Honda VTEK is a good e.g. of that)

In my opinion, I think Ford's decision to move away from the traditional pushrod motor is a step in the right direction. I am not knocking the LSx motors since I believe GM did an amazing job with that platform but I feel like the OHC motors are a good platform for future technology.

Just MY opinion! no one take offense and if I am incorrect with my assumptions, please let me know..

What good is a smaller displacement engine if it's larger, heavier, more complex, more expensive, and produces less torque with comparable or worse fuel consumption?

 

[OW99]

What good is a smaller displacement engine if it's larger, heavier, more complex, more expensive, and produces less torque with comparable or worse fuel consumption?

Should we all just use small block Chevys then?

 

[mrlrd1]

Should we all just use small block Chevys then?

I'll answer a question with another question:

Why are LS swaps into older Mustangs more popular than mod motor swaps?

 

[OW99]

I'll answer a question with another question:

Why are LS swaps into older Mustangs more popular than mod motor swaps?

Okay I'll do that too lol.

Where are the facts?!

 

[ZLwhat?]

I'll answer a question with another question:

Why are LS swaps into older Mustangs more popular than mod motor swaps?

Lack of creativity/laziness

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

What good is a smaller displacement engine if it's larger, heavier, more complex, more expensive, and produces less torque with comparable or worse fuel consumption?

They're much better boost platforms. No question.

Ohv small block Chevys are great for swapping into tiny cars, building up 4-600hp na with usable torque, or running a good nitrous system on. They do well with sc's too but sc's have their own drawbacks in general vs turbos IMO for 800-1200hp.

Turbo ls mills need a well designed head/valve/spring/lifter/cam/turbo/intakecombo to run well, it's no surprise that gm didnt like the turbo configurations attempted on ls9 prototypes. they went sc. Go figure. They make great Ecotech's, why not just put a turbo on the ls line since its such a simple design? Oh because turbo boost and ohv doesn't just fall into place easy like 4v and turbo.

Ohv= great na/nitrous, good sc, tricky to turbo.
4v= robust boost mills, great sc'd (smaller displacement but more power gained per psi. Vs ohv), and undisputed turbo charmers. Aerotive is making 2200whp on a 323ci modular. Nutty

The 150#'s of weight buys you turbo/boost friendly heads.

I love sbc's for classics, easy swaps into tiny cars, big punch/light weigh etc, but building one for boost is much trickier.

Can 4 digit turbo ls's be built and last? Oh ya, will it happen near as often as a cammer motor doing so with mild cams and honest drivability? No, no way.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I'll answer a question with another question:

Why are LS swaps into older Mustangs more popular than mod motor swaps?

Why waste a perfectly good cammer on a Chevy? Lol.

I could see putting a Chevy mill in a ford if you don't wanna learn new tech but otherwise, it's just to stir up controversy. Ford Windsor's will do about the same as comparable ls mills give or take 50hp.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Odd question for the ohv guys, why do ls7's break easily at 6-700whp even na?

With 7 liters I'd imagine they could make 100whp/liter just as easy as Sean Hyland makes 115whp+/L with 4.6 modulars (550whp+ with 4.6L).

Does the cam/head combo hold it back or just the block walls being too thin?

 

[S8ER01Z]

I don't think the assertion that 'new tech' (which btw isn't new at all) keeps people from using mod motors but when you consider the number of cheap lsx motors literally everywhere and the cost to mod each I really have a hard time looking at a mod motor unless I intend of going FI. Cam swaps are more work and costs more, heads appear to be pricier, exhaust appears to cost more...etc so if your plans include any of that ohv is an easy choice IMHO.

If I'm wrong on any of that feel free to correct me but that's how it stacks up for me. It's not that a mod motor is a bad choice but not everyone can afford to add a blower. :shrug:

 

[S8ER01Z]

Odd question for the ohv guys, why do ls7's break easily at 6-700whp even na?

With 7 liters I'd imagine they could make 100whp/liter just as easy as Sean Hyland makes 115whp+/L with 4.6 modulars (550whp+ with 4.6L).

Does the cam/head combo hold it back or just the block walls being too thin?

I honestly don't know but some good info here regarding the liners being a weak point.

LS7 Block HP Limits Reached? - LS1TECH

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

S8ER I think your dead on, modulars just aren't cost effective na motors vs ls/lt's. Even a 5.4 na like I had during break in (no boost) is still a little short of a ls6/ls3 bang/buck potential/drivability wise IMO. You can get the same power out of either but building the 5.4 will cost you probably $1500(used parts)-3,000(new parts)+ more than building a 600hp ls3/6.

Raw power potential, either one will have a hard time hitting 700hp na stock displacement but its cool that the 4v can nearly get their with less displacement.

I've toyed with the idea of building a carbed sullivan 600hp 5.4 with 12/1, corn and 7500rpms for a rat rod just because of the big block look of the heads but I don't think I'll ever do it since its like $10k to do that right and honestly it'd be a pretty useless car/doorless rust bucket with a race seat. Lotto win? First priority though.

 

[mrlrd1]

They're much better boost platforms. No question.

Ohv small block Chevys are great for swapping into tiny cars, building up 4-600hp na with usable torque, or running a good nitrous system on. They do well with sc's too but sc's have their own drawbacks in general vs turbos IMO for 800-1200hp.

Turbo ls mills need a well designed head/valve/spring/lifter/cam/turbo/intakecombo to run well, it's no surprise that gm didnt like the turbo configurations attempted on ls9 prototypes. they went sc. Go figure. They make great Ecotech's, why not just put a turbo on the ls line since its such a simple design? Oh because turbo boost and ohv doesn't just fall into place easy like 4v and turbo.

Ohv= great na/nitrous, good sc, tricky to turbo.
4v= robust boost mills, great sc'd (smaller displacement but more power gained per psi. Vs ohv), and undisputed turbo charmers. Aerotive is making 2200whp on a 323ci modular. Nutty

The 150#'s of weight buys you turbo/boost friendly heads.

I love sbc's for classics, easy swaps into tiny cars, big punch/light weigh etc, but building one for boost is much trickier.

Can 4 digit turbo ls's be built and last? Oh ya, will it happen near as often as a cammer motor doing so with mild cams and honest drivability? No, no way.

You keep talking about this boost thing. It shows your ignorance.

Turbo junkyard 4.8s and 5.3s are popping up everywhere. And surprise... many in fox Mustangs. Stock 100K+ mile junkyard engines with 15psi on a 70-78mm turbo are putting down power numbers that would embarass a well built twin screw 4v. And there's nothing hard about it. Flipped truck manifolds, $300 chinese turbos, ebay intercoolers...

And pound (engine weight) for pound (boost psi), the LS makes MORE power. When was the last time you saw a mod motor making over 1000hp with as little as 12psi with any blower/turbo?

Face it. The 4v mod motors are good platforms to work with ONLY IF YOU ALREADY HAVE ONE. If you've got a car with one, use it. But it certainly isn't, and never will be, something you should swap into another platform. The only guys that do that are hardcore Ford fans that don't mind a lot of extra work, and would rather be unique than fast.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

You keep talking about this boost thing. It shows your ignorance.

Turbo junkyard 4.8s and 5.3s are popping up everywhere. And surprise... many in fox Mustangs. Stock 100K+ mile junkyard engines with 15psi on a 70-78mm turbo are putting down power numbers that would embarass a well built twin screw 4v. And there's nothing hard about it. Flipped truck manifolds, $300 chinese turbos, ebay intercoolers...

And pound (engine weight) for pound (boost psi), the LS makes MORE power. When was the last time you saw a mod motor making over 1000hp with as little as 12psi with any blower/turbo?

Face it. The 4v mod motors are good platforms to work with ONLY IF YOU ALREADY HAVE ONE. If you've got a car with one, use it. But it certainly isn't, and never will be, something you should swap into another platform. The only guys that do that are hardcore Ford fans that don't mind a lot of extra work, and would rather be unique than fast.

Your whole argument rests on comparing a turbo 4.8-5.3 vs an sc 4.6.... Word... Nonono

I'll indulge though, budget junk yard build 4.8-5.3's still break pretty often and the Chinese turbos you talk of leak after 0-3k miles very often enough to give them the notoriety they have.

Many turbo modulars have and do make much more power than these 4.8 and 5.3 builds. Lets compare turbo to turbo and sc to sc. Show me a stock block/piston/rod/head/cam 4.8-5.3 making 1188whp. I'll wait.

Oh, this car was twin charged and would have made more power just tt'd. The heaton was sapping up power uptop.

Here's that bone stock long block 03 cobra 4.6 making 1188whp with just fuel, spark. Head gaskets/studs and tuning software. Stock block, pistons, bearings, rods, crank, cams, heads, valves, springs, retainers, etc.

Hellion hellraiser initial testing. Article was in Hotrod, mm&ff, and 5.0 magazine in 07-08 roughly.

I'm not bashing ohv's but honestly for turbo builds, it's not nearly as easy as it is with factory forged modulars man.

If the 4.8-5.3 takes to a turbo so well as you describe, why wouldn't gm just turbo the cts-v, zr1, zl1, lsa's and ls9's? Gm knows ecotechs very well, they new turbo diesels well enough... The answer is longevity and complexity. With out the adjustability and safety of 4v multi cams, turbos are not nearly as safe/easy to dial in.

Anyways, find me any bone stock Chevy mill that came in a $30-50k production car between 1990-now that has held 1188whp for even a thousand miles. That hell raiser car broke its stock IRS well before the motor ever let go.

It's not uncommon for 4.6 and 5.4 factory forged longblock 4v's to live 5-10,000+ miles with 800+whp. I don't hear of even lsa's or even the $100-130k zr1's ls9 doing so for very long, just saying man. And if you have to spend $100-130k to get a 1000hp capable long block from Chevy, I think it's showing that ohv isn't as epic win as you believe it is boost wise...

Oh and back to the sc front, there's a built 5.4 4v with a 4.2 kb making 1150~whp in mm&ff this month through an auto on 27psi... Tell me thats not out shining the built up 4.8-5.3's making 800whp+ on 10-20psi turbo... And that dudes 1150whp was with a laggy auto otherwise it probably would have made 1300whp based on the graph, it's like 1150whp from 3.5k rpms.

I don't have a pic of the graph but I'm sure others in this thread have seen the article. Fully built? Ya it runs 8.10's@170, but its 300-500whp more than the tubo mills your talking about so its obviously vastly superior anyways/has earned it's build cost in epic win especially being sc. If it was turbo it would easily be a 1500whp monster.

The 323ci tt modular 5.4 4v based aeromotive car (5.3) has made 2200whp... Find me any 4.7-5.3 in any build, cost being no concern, that has done so. I'll wait.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

You keep talking about this boost thing. It shows your ignorance.

No, I don't find 600-800whp that omg noteworthy for a turbo 4.8-5.3, sorry.

12psi 1000hp modular? Coyote's have put down 900-960whp on 10-12psi. Stock internals, no biggie haha. M6 and a6. Corrected to flywheel power, that's an honest 1050-1100hp.

I've read of 820whp 5.3's stroked, built, etc but I've never seen a stock longblock 5.3 make 900whp and last. Can it happen? Sure, as often as a coyote? No chance.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I'll upload a pic of that gt500's 11xxwhp dyno later to night. The article is I this months mm&ff dyno shoot out.

Another gt500 made 930whp on pump gas with 8.5/1 compression in the same issue. Twin 62's if I remember right, again, pump gas. Throw another 10psi at that car and 1150whp would be easily there.