Do as search, I have preached many times on what Paul just said. Most people here act like it is something new to have idle problems due to MAF placement especially if its right after a bend.
5.0 Mag CAI article in May Issue
- Thread starter ObieFox
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2002
- Messages
- 296
As far as the bends are concerned there are other variables which also come into play.
Diameter is very critical. I notice much more vacuum with a smaller diameter being retained as you go up in meter size.
Thus you have to remove all the vacuum possible for the least restriction on the system. This is part of the reason why the 100mm i.d. works so well on the bigger meters. On the smaller (5.0 & 3.8) systems the 77mm i.d. is a better match up.
As far the bends are concerned that's the main reason why I have my systems tunable.
I simply analyze the complete airflow path with the stock airbox. THERE IS A BEND IN FRONT OF THE METER CREATED BY THE SNORKLE. The airflow has to go through the snorkle but then is further restricted since there is only one air entryway hole on the factory airbox. It's making the filter breathe as though it's wearing a gas mask.
Do 2 bends with the 'down' position then adversely affect the meter? Practically all engineers will tell you YES. But the best way to determine this ISN'T EMPERICALLY but testing the setup out on the track or on the the dyno. Under real world driving conditions. And of course also monitoring for 'check engine' too lean or too rich codes. It's simply a matter or seeing which position ellicits the best performance with checking the plugs etc. for mixture.
I have the only 5.0 system with 2 bends but it gains +13 ft. lbs. of torque over the factory airbox. Here the factory meter responds well to the 2 bends.
All of the factory meters I've tested have responded positively to 2 bends provided the pressure drop variable is addressed with the correct diameter. I.E....2 bends with a system 87mm i.d. on a 90mm meter will probably cause too rich of a mixture and a power loss.
You can't make a too restrictive CAI which runs rich run leaner. One with the most airflow and least vacuum will of course lean out the mixture but then you can take advantage of colder plugs, tuners etc., and realize even bigger gains that just with the CAI.
The K&N FIPK system beat mine with the 9" K&N and I'm fairly confidant that it didn't lean the A/F more than my system to do this. K&N system matched that 6" filter and apparantly the velocity variable comes into play here as the pipes/gasket, etc. were held constant.
TESTING, NOT THEORY, is the best way to determine the optimum airflow to the meter.
And no ones even addressing the intake temp question!
If there are significant gains available with these CAIs with the inner fender configurations posting the highest gains what do you think is going to happen when the engine reaches operating temperature on a 90 degree day?
The inner fender systems will pull even wider performance margins over the underhood. Hell they're already beating them with the intake temps held constant in the dyno sessions.
A conical K&N breathes best in a cooler location unrestricted by the airbox.
Diameter is very critical. I notice much more vacuum with a smaller diameter being retained as you go up in meter size.
Thus you have to remove all the vacuum possible for the least restriction on the system. This is part of the reason why the 100mm i.d. works so well on the bigger meters. On the smaller (5.0 & 3.8) systems the 77mm i.d. is a better match up.
As far the bends are concerned that's the main reason why I have my systems tunable.
I simply analyze the complete airflow path with the stock airbox. THERE IS A BEND IN FRONT OF THE METER CREATED BY THE SNORKLE. The airflow has to go through the snorkle but then is further restricted since there is only one air entryway hole on the factory airbox. It's making the filter breathe as though it's wearing a gas mask.
Do 2 bends with the 'down' position then adversely affect the meter? Practically all engineers will tell you YES. But the best way to determine this ISN'T EMPERICALLY but testing the setup out on the track or on the the dyno. Under real world driving conditions. And of course also monitoring for 'check engine' too lean or too rich codes. It's simply a matter or seeing which position ellicits the best performance with checking the plugs etc. for mixture.
I have the only 5.0 system with 2 bends but it gains +13 ft. lbs. of torque over the factory airbox. Here the factory meter responds well to the 2 bends.
All of the factory meters I've tested have responded positively to 2 bends provided the pressure drop variable is addressed with the correct diameter. I.E....2 bends with a system 87mm i.d. on a 90mm meter will probably cause too rich of a mixture and a power loss.
You can't make a too restrictive CAI which runs rich run leaner. One with the most airflow and least vacuum will of course lean out the mixture but then you can take advantage of colder plugs, tuners etc., and realize even bigger gains that just with the CAI.
The K&N FIPK system beat mine with the 9" K&N and I'm fairly confidant that it didn't lean the A/F more than my system to do this. K&N system matched that 6" filter and apparantly the velocity variable comes into play here as the pipes/gasket, etc. were held constant.
TESTING, NOT THEORY, is the best way to determine the optimum airflow to the meter.
And no ones even addressing the intake temp question!
If there are significant gains available with these CAIs with the inner fender configurations posting the highest gains what do you think is going to happen when the engine reaches operating temperature on a 90 degree day?
The inner fender systems will pull even wider performance margins over the underhood. Hell they're already beating them with the intake temps held constant in the dyno sessions.
A conical K&N breathes best in a cooler location unrestricted by the airbox.
Last edited:
Densecharger problems aside, does anyone else NOT want to give this guy business with that kind of attitude?:shrug:
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2002
- Messages
- 296
I offered to restock your system and apologize for not checking the PM emails. But that's why I have the toll free #.
I'm sorry you had problems. Not every single customer will always be satisfied. THAT'S A GIVEN!
But customer satisfaction better than 98-99 % percent isn't attitude or marketing hype it's the results of hard work. I'm not going to apologize for wanting orders. That's how I support my family.
Marketing hype is posting that your system gains +25 when it won't.
I'd also be more than happy to send you the revised meter pipe should this help. These 03's are very sensitive. Hell many many of the TOTALLY STOCK 03's won't idle correctly. But the platform the factory has given us to work with is AWESOME! No factory stock Mustang has ever been perfect.
But who would have thought a 281 c.i. motor would post 425 rwhp with just a couple bolt-ons?
Or a CAI would post +25 rwhp?
I'm sorry you had problems. Not every single customer will always be satisfied. THAT'S A GIVEN!
But customer satisfaction better than 98-99 % percent isn't attitude or marketing hype it's the results of hard work. I'm not going to apologize for wanting orders. That's how I support my family.
Marketing hype is posting that your system gains +25 when it won't.
I'd also be more than happy to send you the revised meter pipe should this help. These 03's are very sensitive. Hell many many of the TOTALLY STOCK 03's won't idle correctly. But the platform the factory has given us to work with is AWESOME! No factory stock Mustang has ever been perfect.
But who would have thought a 281 c.i. motor would post 425 rwhp with just a couple bolt-ons?
Or a CAI would post +25 rwhp?
Last edited:
my recommendation for those of you still deciding.... get the AR kit and be done with it... next mod please 
BNA,
He's got a revised pipe that puts the meter at 12'oclock. He'd sent me a 4x4 coupler a month ago, and I tested it out on the dyno over the next two weeks.
It was pretty obvious that the meter being at 12 helped, so he's since revised his design, and all new DC meter pipes will be built to that spec.
He's got a revised pipe that puts the meter at 12'oclock. He'd sent me a 4x4 coupler a month ago, and I tested it out on the dyno over the next two weeks.
It was pretty obvious that the meter being at 12 helped, so he's since revised his design, and all new DC meter pipes will be built to that spec.
Just got mine, today...
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2002
- Messages
- 296
Finally I got the Article yesterday.
I hope it puts to rest the BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION A/F question.
CORRECT ANALYZATION even without A/F ratios shows that most almost all of the systems on the modified Cobra posted very close numbers.
I guess my system decided NOT to trick the SAME meters on these cars??
The FIPK is very close on the stock car with the lower velocity of the 9" K&N showing more gains with the FIPK. I would conclude from this also that the K&N system just plain works well and probably isn't tricking anything!
I'm posting the revised pipe to my site available to all my past customers @ $25..
If you don't have an idle problem or it isn't any worse than when it was stock I'd leave it alone.
It's great that we live in the high tech age of dyno accessability but simple logic is still applicable.
It's like what Dr. Meyer states in the article that these systems are also going to probably post differing results on the track as the HEAT question will come into play much more.
A constantly COOLER running CAI will always beat an underhood setup in the 'REAL WORLD' where we spend all of our time driving.
I hope it puts to rest the BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION A/F question.
CORRECT ANALYZATION even without A/F ratios shows that most almost all of the systems on the modified Cobra posted very close numbers.
I guess my system decided NOT to trick the SAME meters on these cars??
The FIPK is very close on the stock car with the lower velocity of the 9" K&N showing more gains with the FIPK. I would conclude from this also that the K&N system just plain works well and probably isn't tricking anything!
I'm posting the revised pipe to my site available to all my past customers @ $25..
If you don't have an idle problem or it isn't any worse than when it was stock I'd leave it alone.
It's great that we live in the high tech age of dyno accessability but simple logic is still applicable.
It's like what Dr. Meyer states in the article that these systems are also going to probably post differing results on the track as the HEAT question will come into play much more.
A constantly COOLER running CAI will always beat an underhood setup in the 'REAL WORLD' where we spend all of our time driving.
Last edited:
Yes, and I've always said that! I noticed underhood temps soar to over 120 to 140 degrees on my Lightning while at idle or low speeds around town when testing JLP's air box kit, or the stock airbox with the bottom removed and the filter zip tied up, . Some say we do not race at idle or low speeds, but in reality we do, as on the street or the track we have to give it WOT from whatever speed in order to get a good launch or take off, and if your IAT temps are excessive, the pcm will pull several degrees of timing, and then you just cost yourself some valuable power.
"But the best way to determine this ISN'T EMPERICALLY but testing the setup out on the track or on the the dyno. Under real world driving conditions. "
Empirical testing is experimental testing in real world conditions. Dyno or track testing hence is empirical testing. I think you were looking for theoretical.
Empirical testing is experimental testing in real world conditions. Dyno or track testing hence is empirical testing. I think you were looking for theoretical.
Got Incon? Please............don't go there :nono:
I just got done studying a week straight, 6 hours a day for my Psych test, which was 150 questions. I've been trying to forget about that crap, so I don't need smart guys putting that crap in front of my eyes again :thumbsup:
I just got done studying a week straight, 6 hours a day for my Psych test, which was 150 questions. I've been trying to forget about that crap, so I don't need smart guys putting that crap in front of my eyes again :thumbsup:
Lol, okay okay I'll stop.
Good luck on your test.
P.s. The hardest test i ever had in school was a three question Quantum Mechanics test which was take home and we had a week to do it. Hardest test I ever had.
Good luck on your test.
P.s. The hardest test i ever had in school was a three question Quantum Mechanics test which was take home and we had a week to do it. Hardest test I ever had.
Anyone else want to share their results? Some of us are still deciding...
BNA, two reasons I'm answering here instead of waiting for John:
1) Our conversations and testings led to the change in position, and
2) John has an agreement with his significant other to spend very little time on the net. There are very legitimate and serious reasons for that, which are family related, and not suitable for public discussion. Hope you understand.
While it may seem like a "monkey see/ monkey do" type of approach, which is, in general, very bad, you can also view it as "There must be a reason why every other company is doing it."
All other similar CAI's were being produced for the 03's with the meter at 12. One company doing it could be an accident, two could be a cooincidence, while three must be something with legitimate reasoning behind it.
However, that's the lesser of the reasons.
The 03's are notorious for having rough idles, and in general, being very touchy. My car was no different, and once I went to an aftermarket CAI (ie: DC) my drivability got a little worse.
During a phone conversation, I brought up the fact that other companies had moved the meter to 12, and that it would be worthwhile to at least experiment with this, since there were many complaints regarding the idle and drivability with the DC.
From there, John built a 4x4 coupler and sent it to me for testing. He was hoping to find a "sweet spot" in the airflow to, perhaps, increase the HP a little bit more. However, the main concern was to get drivability back to, or better than, stock performance.
I put the car on a dyno and ran several tests with the meter in various positions. What I found was that, while I didn't pick up any more power (I don't consider 2-3rhp worthy of mention), I DID significantly improve my idle and drivability.
From there, John moved the meter to 12, and sent out several to owners with drivability issues for testing.
To date, all of the 12-positioned meter pipes sent out improved performance.
In fact, I still have the 4x4 coupler on the car, because my idle is better than it was from the factory. call me paranoid, but I don't want to fix it if it ain't broken ;-)
1) Our conversations and testings led to the change in position, and
2) John has an agreement with his significant other to spend very little time on the net. There are very legitimate and serious reasons for that, which are family related, and not suitable for public discussion. Hope you understand.
While it may seem like a "monkey see/ monkey do" type of approach, which is, in general, very bad, you can also view it as "There must be a reason why every other company is doing it."
All other similar CAI's were being produced for the 03's with the meter at 12. One company doing it could be an accident, two could be a cooincidence, while three must be something with legitimate reasoning behind it.
However, that's the lesser of the reasons.
The 03's are notorious for having rough idles, and in general, being very touchy. My car was no different, and once I went to an aftermarket CAI (ie: DC) my drivability got a little worse.
During a phone conversation, I brought up the fact that other companies had moved the meter to 12, and that it would be worthwhile to at least experiment with this, since there were many complaints regarding the idle and drivability with the DC.
From there, John built a 4x4 coupler and sent it to me for testing. He was hoping to find a "sweet spot" in the airflow to, perhaps, increase the HP a little bit more. However, the main concern was to get drivability back to, or better than, stock performance.
I put the car on a dyno and ran several tests with the meter in various positions. What I found was that, while I didn't pick up any more power (I don't consider 2-3rhp worthy of mention), I DID significantly improve my idle and drivability.
From there, John moved the meter to 12, and sent out several to owners with drivability issues for testing.
To date, all of the 12-positioned meter pipes sent out improved performance.
In fact, I still have the 4x4 coupler on the car, because my idle is better than it was from the factory. call me paranoid, but I don't want to fix it if it ain't broken ;-)
I'm Sold. Thanks for the expalnation. Tom
Get an open element style filter. Like an AR, JL, or PHP. Or just an open element filter. Much better.
I haven't done any dyno runs. I have the DC. I was literally shocked at the difference. The car now hits almost 10 pounds, on the POS factory gauge. The DC is a serious mod, and looks really clean. I have noticed no change in drivability, but it pulls a lot harder after about 3500. I can't wait to track the car and give you folks some numbers. I did 110 traps all day(stock), I expect ~113s. I promise you'll LOVE it.
Last edited:
Users who are viewing this thread
