A midnight ramble about BBF vs SBF, dont mind me

truebluedevil02

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Long read but typing this stuff out helps clear my head and i post this stuff so it might help others also.

I know Ive posted a few threads about what I should do to build my car. ive also gone back and forth about selling it BUT I have officially decided to keep it and rather than sticking with the small block crowd I'm highly considering dropping a 460 block into it. Nothing huge just a 466 or maybe 472ci stock crank/rods motor.

I have been battling with myself over what to do with this car for about 3 months now. I want to make as close to 650hp as possible while also keeping a fair amount of reliability and driveability. If I stay with the small blocks I would need at minimum a 351W and a turbo or supercharger or a dart blocked 302 with some kind of boost. The car would actually be seeing a fair amount of miles (75-100per week) so that rules out any cheap turbo kits and budget strokers. I just dont feel they would be able to provided the reliability I want and i dont have $25K to dump into top of the line parts. You have all seen me post the following (cheap, fast, reliable...pick 2) So NA is what makes the most sense and we all know there is no replacement for displacement. So I have priced out several different SBF stroker combos and none of them will even come close to my HP goal while sticking to pump gas, moderate cam, and under a $7K engine budget.

Completely out of the blue a few weeks ago My buddy and I were BSing about dropping a big block+200shot in an old RX7. Just for shitsNgiggles I decided to look up some big block vid and one thing lead to another and I found the "battle of the big blocks" episode on horsepower TV. That is where I really started considering doing a big block swap. Now I dont take to heart what those guys on that show do BUT, i was impressed witht he power they made in a $2300 motor. I'm 25 so I grew up in the fuel injection SBF Generation. Obviously I knew that the big blocks were the way to make monster NA power but I didn't know how cheap it has gotten over the years. SO I started comparing BBF vs SBF builds and $ for $ its a MURDER with the 460 coming out WAY on top. I knew the 460 would make more power mod for mod but I never thought It would make more power $ for $. I also would never have guessed they can make over 600hp on ported stock cast heads.

It turns out for the same money it would cost to build a 550bhp 408 stroker I can build a near 700bhp 466/472. Obviously that meets my HP goal and in turn will also meet my goal for reliable street car that gets moderate use. Plus its just cool to say you have a 472 big block in your little fox mustang, lol.

So i started looking at the extra weight of the big block and what could be done to counteract it. I have only found a few sites claiming engine weights for the 5.0 and BBf460 but from what I have found (with cast heads) a full 302 tips the scales at right around 475-500lbs minus accessories while the 460 comes in at around 700lbs. These numbers seem pretty excessive but I haven't found any EXACT #'s to go off of and these #'s are partly based on shipping weights so bear with me. I know you can cut nearly 35lbs off a 460 just by putting an aluminum intake manifold on it and I have heard (fellow drag racers) that aluminum 460 heads are nearly 50lbs lighter than there cast iron counterparts EACH. So based on my (bad) math, putting an aluminum top end on a 460, along with losing the A/C, smog systems, and the various other non required things to run a Carb motor, you could probably get the total car weight down to that of the stock mustang(give or take 25lbs) without having to add a tubular K-member, pull out the bumper, strip the engine bay, etc.

Having found several big block swap kits for fox mustangs all ranging in price from $600-$1000 w/ long tube headers and the fact that at any given day you can go pick up a COMPLETE intake to oil pan junkyard 460 for under $250 im really surprised that you dont see as many of them on the forums of SVTP or corral.net. I know the SBF is popular but with so many people on a tight budget it just makes sense to me to go this route rather than the SBF route. BUT it is "custom" and that scares a lot of people who want to just bolt on a blower and go racing, so I can see both side of it I guess.

Anyways this is what I do when I cant sleep, lol. If anyone has any experience with these big motors in our little cars please feel free to post it up. If I'm wrong about anything then please feel free to correct it. Like a said above the only reason I am posting this is because it could help others down the road. /ramble:beer:

good night
 

slow_302

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So, if you did build a 460 for $2500, plus a $1000 for a conversion kit you're into the engine $3500. You now have an engine in a car that'll literally destroy the trans, the rear end, and twist the unibody.

I'd take half of that money, buy a used blower kit. Then take the other half pick up some cheap iron heads, cam and intake of your choice and you'll still have cash left over for a budget bott end. You won't make 650bhp, but you'll make enough power to blow the doors off of 99% of the cars you pull up next to.

Just my $.02.
 

truebluedevil02

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So, if you did build a 460 for $2500, plus a $1000 for a conversion kit you're into the engine $3500. You now have an engine in a car that'll literally destroy the trans, the rear end, and twist the unibody.

I'd take half of that money, buy a used blower kit. Then take the other half pick up some cheap iron heads, cam and intake of your choice and you'll still have cash left over for a budget bott end. You won't make 650bhp, but you'll make enough power to blow the doors off of 99% of the cars you pull up next to.

Just my $.02.

I just got rid of a 408 stroked coupe a few months back. I want more than it made. And yes I would be in the motor about $3500 but that leaves another $3500 for a built trans, clutch and rearend which is easily doable. At that point it wont be a 650hp monster but it would be in the mid/low 400hp and well over 500torque and later down the road all I need to do to get the 650 is swap out the (stock)heads, cam, intake and walla. Also my personal car has no engine or trans. So going the route you suggested is out of the question. When I bought it it already had a full H/C/I/E and all I was planning on doing was tossing a turbo kit on it and being done but then the motor went and that all changed. AS far as chassis twisting goes just my car already has subframe connectors so ill just add in a 4pt cage and the chassis would be fine.

I'm in no way trying to start an argument over which is better, they both have there good and bad points. But for my personal goals the BBF is the best choice for providing reliability, simplicity, affordability, and performance all at the same time. I feel that this is important for others since most people are on a pretty tight budget (like me). I dont want to work around a blower if I need to change the belts, Tstat or something simple. And I dont want to have to pull off a downpipe just to check my spark plugs. Also the motor would be a solid lifter setup so I dont want a big bulky intake manifold in my way when im trying to adjust the valve lash.

On the other hand, i didn't want to go back to carb as the fuel injection is MUCH nicer for driving around and gets better fuel economy. I also hate to "cut up" a never molested V8 original coupe AND my car is a 5spd and I would like to go auto with a set up like this. BUT I cant get enough money for my roller to justify selling it and starting with a 4cyl. My car already has the subframes, 4wheel disk brakes, 5lugs, big radiator, electric fan, and a good paint job and straight body with no rust. I guess its a victim of its own success, lol. I would spend more money just buying a "fair" condition 4cyl and changing the brakes, axles and cooling system to what I already have sitting here ready to rock. and then its still gunna be a car with 20year old paint and lord knows what condition the interior would be in when the interior in mine is easily an 8/10.

This is just my personal situation. This thread is not meant to be about me but more of a conglomerate of info on this topic. I'm just using my personal situation as reference. Hopefully it will help others no matter what the situation. I personally already have a car ready for whatever drivetrain I want to throw at it. Many people that read this might be sitting on bone stock or near stock cars that will need a good amount of upgrades to handle the kind of power I'm looking at. Even more so many people have no clue what a 650hp car is like and there stuck playing the HP game not knowing what there getting into. Hopefully this thread might educate some that way they done waste thousands of dollars building something they dont realize they dont want/cant handle/cant afford/etc. so for those that are SBF fan boys please keep the "brand loyalty" out of here. Those that have done builds like this are welcome to post there experience to not only help myself but to help others as well.
 

4valvemach

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BIG BLOCKS FTMFW!!!!!!!!!!! :rockon:

Only two things I can kinda say is bad about Big Blocks

1.Fuel Mileage is not so great,my old malibu with a very mild 454ci got about 8-10mpg.

2.The extra weight of a Big Block could be a bad thing but really a engine like that in a fox does front end weight really matter.Just push on the gas and the front end will come up for you:D

P.S.
A Big Block with the FLU would make 500hp small blocks can suck in water for all I care.
 
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truebluedevil02

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BIG BLOCKS FTMFW!!!!!!!!!!! :rockon:

Only two things I can kinda say is bad about Big Blocks

1.Fuel Mileage is not so great,my old malibu with a very mild 454ci got about 8-10mpg.

2.The extra weight of a Big Block could be a bad thing but really a engine like that in a fox does front end weight really matter.Just push on the gas and the front end will come up for you:D

P.S.
A Big Block with the FLU would make 500hp small blocks can suck in water for all I care.

Yea, mpg is nice but not a big issue. And the ability to make 550+HP out of self ported stock heads with less than $500 in them is sweet. I know Jon kaase made 690hp on a 466ci with otb p51 heads, single plane otb intake and big solid roller cam on 91 pump gas. Can't really argue with those results.
 

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