Another dead Coyote - VMP TVS
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I think the op was using a new revision to the tune. I guess you can just log yours whenever theres a change made to the tune.
But if the issue is that the ecu keeps adding more and more timing as time goes by, because the knock sensors haven't seen anything, then you would have to continue to monitor the timing/knock.
Not having a predefined maximum timing locked in, it is scary. You would throw some torco in to be safe and do a bunch of passes at the track. Well the ecu could keep adding timing due to the detonation resistance of the torco, and then when you run out of torco all of a sudden you are running torco type timing on pump gas...
If Justin is reading this thread, PLEASE tell us if you set a maximum timing allowable in your tunes.
Not having a predefined maximum timing locked in, it is scary. You would throw some torco in to be safe and do a bunch of passes at the track. Well the ecu could keep adding timing due to the detonation resistance of the torco, and then when you run out of torco all of a sudden you are running torco type timing on pump gas...
If Justin is reading this thread, PLEASE tell us if you set a maximum timing allowable in your tunes.
I have been in this game for 25 years and theres not one shop that doesn't have
rumors or someone having an issue with.
I have used in my years for tuning JD's performance, JDM, Lund, Rick at Amazon and VMP tuning if u cant find one thread not talking shit about one of these companys let me know.
Unfortunately when building a high horse pwr car anything can happen very fast.
If u don't data log your car and u think your going to be alright well your taking a 50/50 chance. I don't care if these cars have widebands what if they go bad or they get lazy if they can?
When building a car that shit needs to be checked and a second opinion can't hurt.
I take my car over to Justin at VMP for all the checks even know I can data log and have many years tuning and racing.
Makes me feel real good having A/F and all the sensor checked on the dyno.
I must say some of u guys are like girls (GOSSIP) and also think u know more then u really do. These sites are full of Parrots. I have been reading shit like this on the net for years and to be honest some of u should stick to your day jobs pushing pencils. lol
rumors or someone having an issue with.
I have used in my years for tuning JD's performance, JDM, Lund, Rick at Amazon and VMP tuning if u cant find one thread not talking shit about one of these companys let me know.
Unfortunately when building a high horse pwr car anything can happen very fast.
If u don't data log your car and u think your going to be alright well your taking a 50/50 chance. I don't care if these cars have widebands what if they go bad or they get lazy if they can?
When building a car that shit needs to be checked and a second opinion can't hurt.
I take my car over to Justin at VMP for all the checks even know I can data log and have many years tuning and racing.
Makes me feel real good having A/F and all the sensor checked on the dyno.
I must say some of u guys are like girls (GOSSIP) and also think u know more then u really do. These sites are full of Parrots. I have been reading shit like this on the net for years and to be honest some of u should stick to your day jobs pushing pencils. lol
This.
How dare people want to know enough to try to keep their car safe...
Tuners cant ride around with you once a week to make sure everything is still kosher, so understanding enough to know what to look for seems like the only reasonable method, right???
Some people are willing to give up on those extra 10-20hp to keep their cars safer, but when you order a mail-order tune, you're getting the same tune as that guy who is willing to risk everything for those extra ponies. We're just wondering where on that scale the mail order tunes are... unreasonable?
I must say some of you guys who are pretty smart, think that everyone else is stupid, and they talk down to everyone, not realizing that some of these people may be as smart, or smarter than you, and they're just starting to learn this stuff.
Tuners cant ride around with you once a week to make sure everything is still kosher, so understanding enough to know what to look for seems like the only reasonable method, right???
Some people are willing to give up on those extra 10-20hp to keep their cars safer, but when you order a mail-order tune, you're getting the same tune as that guy who is willing to risk everything for those extra ponies. We're just wondering where on that scale the mail order tunes are... unreasonable?
I must say some of you guys who are pretty smart, think that everyone else is stupid, and they talk down to everyone, not realizing that some of these people may be as smart, or smarter than you, and they're just starting to learn this stuff.
No gossip just looking for an explanation on why the datalog showed the timing it did. I never trashed VMP just would like to learn from the OP's motor failure. I own my own business and understand how people like to trash talk your failures and minimize your success. So I get it you have had great experience with VMP and would like to stick up from them which is good sign, but if we can find out if it is a tune issue or just bad gas or motor was pushed past its limit???
Also the fact they stated that they are almost sure it was an op user error and not a tuner error and were going to post about it and there has been no post is probably upsetting people that would like to know answers here.
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So you know how to datalog but still take the car to vmp so he can look at the same numbers that you know so much about.. interesting but it sounds like a waste of time.
Is it now safe to say the tuner FD this one up since they haven't made a statement.
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Can be. I don't care to be honest. Uploaded a vmp tune for the first time to my roush tvs blown car. Vmp tune is beyond belief. It's worth every penny. So what if they screwed up once,?
If VMP had not responded in this thread then I would give them the benefit of doubt. But with how it has played out, I don't see it that way. VMP should really explain what happened here, even if that is an admittance of a mistake, but that would give grounds for recourse so I doubt we see that.
This thread has taken on a life of its own way beyond what the original poster intended.
Since the thread was started and my first post made, I have been gathering additional information before making my final post.
After tuning several cars with the same calibration, reviewing datalogs, looking at files, and talking to others in the industry, I see no conclusive reason why this engine failed. Lambda was within the safe range (when calculated to A/F with a 14.08 stoich point) and no audible knock. When you look at the course of events, timing was high with no knock recorded, and low when the OP felt a power loss, with the knock sensor doing its job and now allowing too much timing at that point.
There is lots of subjective tech in this thread. Adaptive learning does not lead you awry, his knock sensor was actually limited to only add 1* of timing if it heard no knock, and take out -6* if needed. Keep in mind that there are several types of knock control on 5.0s, beyond just knock sensors, what can be called piston protection or high-definition spark control. Also keep in mind that the knock pid in live link is signed wrong and does not datalog all of the knock control.
If the belt slipped or load dropped off for any reason there would be a natural and safe increase in timing. With no audible knock and not even a significant event recorded by the knock sensor (some movement is normal) I can't say for sure this motor detonated. Coyotes have very tight ringlands, and the additional heat from a blower at any boost level could have tightened them up. Due to no fault of his own, the OP had a balancer failure and cooling fan failure before this all happened. I have been seeing coyotes that won't deliver the commanded cam timing, we have no cam angle on the datalogs, but a degree of failure on that system could have un-known consequences if it was outside the track the PCM expected. All of the FRPP boss race cars are coming with upgraded harness with a focus on the cam actuators, position sensors, and crank position sensor.
That is all of the tech I have to offer at this moment. I don't believe one incident to be cause for alarm to the whole community. There is a fair amount of coyotes and roadrunners being replaced by Ford under warranty. I think they know any type of engine with this high of a specific output is going to have a higher attrition rate with or without a blower.
Since the thread was started and my first post made, I have been gathering additional information before making my final post.
After tuning several cars with the same calibration, reviewing datalogs, looking at files, and talking to others in the industry, I see no conclusive reason why this engine failed. Lambda was within the safe range (when calculated to A/F with a 14.08 stoich point) and no audible knock. When you look at the course of events, timing was high with no knock recorded, and low when the OP felt a power loss, with the knock sensor doing its job and now allowing too much timing at that point.
There is lots of subjective tech in this thread. Adaptive learning does not lead you awry, his knock sensor was actually limited to only add 1* of timing if it heard no knock, and take out -6* if needed. Keep in mind that there are several types of knock control on 5.0s, beyond just knock sensors, what can be called piston protection or high-definition spark control. Also keep in mind that the knock pid in live link is signed wrong and does not datalog all of the knock control.
If the belt slipped or load dropped off for any reason there would be a natural and safe increase in timing. With no audible knock and not even a significant event recorded by the knock sensor (some movement is normal) I can't say for sure this motor detonated. Coyotes have very tight ringlands, and the additional heat from a blower at any boost level could have tightened them up. Due to no fault of his own, the OP had a balancer failure and cooling fan failure before this all happened. I have been seeing coyotes that won't deliver the commanded cam timing, we have no cam angle on the datalogs, but a degree of failure on that system could have un-known consequences if it was outside the track the PCM expected. All of the FRPP boss race cars are coming with upgraded harness with a focus on the cam actuators, position sensors, and crank position sensor.
That is all of the tech I have to offer at this moment. I don't believe one incident to be cause for alarm to the whole community. There is a fair amount of coyotes and roadrunners being replaced by Ford under warranty. I think they know any type of engine with this high of a specific output is going to have a higher attrition rate with or without a blower.
Thanks for the reply Justin. The balancer failure threw the factory belt into the cooling fan, and popped the fuse. I don't believe that caused any collateral damage, but I did replace the dampener with an ATI, the cooling fan assembly, and the fuses.
As I said in another thread what happened to my car might have just been out of sheer bad luck. These engines take a lot of abuse. Also remember, you will hear more about things that go wrong than right on car forums. I am not blaming VMP or Justin for what happened, and I need to make that clear as day to everyone who read this thread. I knew the risks involved. I just wish I had a definitive answer to why it happened, and that was my true intent of posting.
Justin has offered to to have the blower checked over itself just to make sure things will be good going forward as well. The support, and product received has been awesome. The events that occurred were just unfortunate.
Mods please lock this thread. Thanks.
As I said in another thread what happened to my car might have just been out of sheer bad luck. These engines take a lot of abuse. Also remember, you will hear more about things that go wrong than right on car forums. I am not blaming VMP or Justin for what happened, and I need to make that clear as day to everyone who read this thread. I knew the risks involved. I just wish I had a definitive answer to why it happened, and that was my true intent of posting.
Justin has offered to to have the blower checked over itself just to make sure things will be good going forward as well. The support, and product received has been awesome. The events that occurred were just unfortunate.
Mods please lock this thread. Thanks.
bad fuel screwed you OP
OP requested the thread be closed.
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