I'll bite, what core and where's it from?
Best heat exchanger currently on the market?
- Thread starter irontexan
- Start date
I'll bite, what core and where's it from?
It all depends on whom you ask. I don't think you'll get a right answer because as of now, that I know of, there's no comparisons done on the same car, same conditions. Obviously Van will push the C&R and VMP will push the VMP or Afco.
Yeah, I guess you're right. The problem is no one would bother doing a comparison unless they damaged their H/E like Derek.
In that case I'm gonna have to do it myself and see what pans out, which is unlikely :/
FWIW - I run the standard C&R. I track my car. Last month a friend and myself did Laguna Seca using my car. It was tracked for 2 sessions in a row with a 2 session break in between. The temps were 70+ ambient. We ran a total of 9 sessions with no issues. I use a VMP Perf tune when on track and with all my tracking I've never felt timing be pulled, however, I'm also using the C&R radiator too. For me the C&R has done what it claims and does all that I need it to do.
Van@RevanRacing
Active Member
I don't know. I've asked the question for years and nobody ever seems to want to be able to answer the question. Even when the AFCO sales rep called me and tried to sell me the AFCO unit she couldn't answer the question. Which I find odd. There has been UNCONFIRMED speculation that the core is made in a foreign country.
I have customers that have switched from AFCO to the C&R and noticed a 10-15 degree drop in mean operating temperature with my heat exchanger.
Which raises the question how many have switched from C&R to AFCO...........Derek did it out of necessity while we were racing.
Core technology is everything when it comes to cooling and cooling efficiency. Been saying that since the very beginning of the dual fan heat exchanger. We researched cores. Our objective was to find a good core designed for high heat and low speed with maximum cooling efficiency. There are better cores than the Visteon core we use available on the market today. When the initial testing was done we stuck with this core and it has proven itself time and again on drag strips, street and road courses.
I have seen similar numbers on my Steeda as well herein S. FL. I take a look at where it is at from time to time, and I get similar number when doing stoplight driving.
Van, Your HE could very well be superior in every way but at least IMO, seeing the company that sells them bashing AFCO without any real evidence is kind of bad business.
It would seem if you really wanted people to know and prove how much better the C&R is than the AFCO, you'd get a third party to test both and post the results.
I mean, for a few G's worth of parts and a few days of testing, you'd have all the results needed for a fair comparison between the 2.
i'd also say most of us don't know what cores are better or worse, so knowing what core it has doesn't really mean anything to the average guy buying a HE.
I know if I had a HE that I knew was better, I'd for sure go out of my way to prove it is, then there would be no questioning which ones better. At least for me personally, If I would have seen evidence proving the C&R unit was way better, I would have bought it. Not seeing anything and happy customers using both units, it's a wash. Pick what you can get a better deal on and be done.
Thats just my thinking anyways. The more info we can get for anything is always a good thing.
It would seem if you really wanted people to know and prove how much better the C&R is than the AFCO, you'd get a third party to test both and post the results.
I mean, for a few G's worth of parts and a few days of testing, you'd have all the results needed for a fair comparison between the 2.
i'd also say most of us don't know what cores are better or worse, so knowing what core it has doesn't really mean anything to the average guy buying a HE.
I know if I had a HE that I knew was better, I'd for sure go out of my way to prove it is, then there would be no questioning which ones better. At least for me personally, If I would have seen evidence proving the C&R unit was way better, I would have bought it. Not seeing anything and happy customers using both units, it's a wash. Pick what you can get a better deal on and be done.
Thats just my thinking anyways. The more info we can get for anything is always a good thing.
Van@RevanRacing
Active Member
I have not said anything "bashing" the AFCO and if that is your perception that was not my intention. I simply called into question the core technology and what core the other vendors are using. I've visually inspected the core from AFCO. It is denser and thicker (harder for air to flow through) than the C&R core. The C&R core flows a higher air volume and the fin design allows for maximum heat extraction. Similar to why you bought a supercharged GT500 versus a GT. (It is what is inside that counts) Why not know and/or ask what is inside (ie. core)?
There are numerous threads on the topic of heat exchangers with fans on SVTP.
You're fairly new to SVTP so I'll do a brief summary. I brought the original dual fan heat exchanger for the GT500 to market. It was my original thought and design. I data logged it and I tested it extensively on road courses and customer cars on drag strips. I proved it worked. We provided data and data logs years ago. I was not a vendor or even selling parts and components at the time. I was road racing and needed a better cooling system because everything available at the time was insufficient. I created a business that has grown into what it is today. Hard work and perseverance.
About six months after the cooling system design I had sold quite a few systems and I was introduced to the then President of Shelby American, Amy Boylan. All of the Shelby American cooling systems are produced by C&R still to this day. We tested everything out there when the other manufacturers came calling to sell their product to Shelby and there was no increase in efficiency with either the heat exchanger or the radiator on the test cars.
You see I was first to market. Then the product was replicated by other companies. ( I looked at getting a Patent but my lawyer told me I wasn't the first guy to put fans on a radiator or heat exchanger, LOL ) At the time I proved my product was the most effective on the market. Since then others have come to market and claimed to be more efficient than the original without testing or providing data proving otherwise.
There is one company with a dual fan heat exchanger that will remain nameless that claimed to have a better product. Then they approached me about testing their new product on my car (my 2007 GT500 at the time) to gather data and information as they hadn't tested it on a GT500 yet.......what? Yes that is 100% true. Testing never happened although I offered to do so and even offered to work with them on the comparison data analysis. They claimed to have a better product but hadn't even tested it and then asked me to do the testing. Irony.
You mention a "few G's worth of parts and a few days of testing" it all sounds easy once you consider time and money to get to a track for the controlled testing and then getting a non-partison party to do the logs........it isn't as easy as it sounds. I'm a licensed Time Trial driver. I have the unique ability to take products and test them more aggressively than most over multiple timed sessions and other open road course venues to data log and capture information. In so doing I've also had the ability to capture data on customer cars with different combinations as well.
I say my product is better based on empirical data that I provided years ago.
It says something when you can simply lean on the brand name without ever actually testing and providing comprehensive data as I did in the very beginning.
Brand "X" says theirs is better. That is all.
Brand "Y" says theirs is better. That is all.
Brand "Z" says theirs is better. That is all.
So I'm simply trying to point out that the most important piece of a heat exchanger is the core. Ford tripled the size of the core in 2013/2014 GT500's and went with a different core.
You've brought up some great points. I don't intend to bash any product as much as I intend for people viewing this thread to be informed and ask questions.
I was approached by AFCO to sell their product and I declined because it wasn't the most efficient based on my data logs and others. Despite the fact I could make more money per unit if I sold the AFCO product I had to stay with what I have seen work better.
I disagree with the first point in that Van is hardly "bashing AFCO", he has posted results and experiences. Whether AFCO venders feel it necessary to chime in with additional info of there own is up to them. I am glad to see some people running the Steeda unit have chimed in, as it seems that is a H/E that is often overlooked.
I do agree with your last point however, the more info we can get the better. Competition leads to better end products and it is nice to have this leval of aftermarket support for cooling with the GT500's. I don't recall having nearly as many options to keep my Terminator cool.
Of course I don't understand everything but I'm not new to cars. I've been working in the business for 20 years as a painter, body and mechanic when I have to lol. I don't know everything about all the different parts but I also don't care to. The advice of people in the business like you, vmp etc is what lots of us need.
Getting good parts for my 86 Regal T-type was easy, most everything on my car was tested to be the best of the best, there was a lot more vs tests that what I find on any mustang forum, on these it seems to be more opinion than actual testing ( of course not on everything but...)
i read up on as much as I can before I buy anything, and I still haven't seen any vs tests on any HE's. Like I said before, look at the entire thread, everyone is looking for vs test between the 2 HE's and there is none to be found. I'd imagine you sell quite a few HE's just based on rep and word of mouth and thats what makes a business ( I have a home theater sub making business as well as a gaming PC business) and thats how I get all my business, even though I only do it as a hobby on the side for fun.
The fact is, people will ask for my opinion on what to get but there is always data on everything to back up my recommendations, tested drivers, tested PC parts vs others.
I'd imagine if someday you did get VS testing and your HE did do a lot better than the AFCO, there wouldn't be much reason to buy anything else. I realize it's one part and may not be cost effective to do but it's really the only way it will ever be finished.
Just to be fair, if it was AFCO in here saying they were changing out HE's, i'd be asking the same questions. I have 100% no brand loyalty for mustang parts, as I'm just getting into it but it's been time consuming sifting through forums trying to get any actual results on much of anything other than Blowers lol
Getting good parts for my 86 Regal T-type was easy, most everything on my car was tested to be the best of the best, there was a lot more vs tests that what I find on any mustang forum, on these it seems to be more opinion than actual testing ( of course not on everything but...)
i read up on as much as I can before I buy anything, and I still haven't seen any vs tests on any HE's. Like I said before, look at the entire thread, everyone is looking for vs test between the 2 HE's and there is none to be found. I'd imagine you sell quite a few HE's just based on rep and word of mouth and thats what makes a business ( I have a home theater sub making business as well as a gaming PC business) and thats how I get all my business, even though I only do it as a hobby on the side for fun.
The fact is, people will ask for my opinion on what to get but there is always data on everything to back up my recommendations, tested drivers, tested PC parts vs others.
I'd imagine if someday you did get VS testing and your HE did do a lot better than the AFCO, there wouldn't be much reason to buy anything else. I realize it's one part and may not be cost effective to do but it's really the only way it will ever be finished.
Just to be fair, if it was AFCO in here saying they were changing out HE's, i'd be asking the same questions. I have 100% no brand loyalty for mustang parts, as I'm just getting into it but it's been time consuming sifting through forums trying to get any actual results on much of anything other than Blowers lol
Maybe bash was a strong word but he's clearly saying his is superior, which it may well be but without any data backing it up, it's just an opinion to mos anyone reading this thread.
Also to be fair, no results have been posted except for the guy and his steeda generic testing (thanks for that!) and Derick V comparing 2 units that shouldn't be compared as they should be pretty different.
I've noticed lots of guys on the forums are loyal to certain to different vendors and thats awesome, I really have had great experiences with VMP ( not so good with Lethal Performance) so far but thats not to say If someone offers something better they don't have, I would buy it. I'm coming into all these forums not knowing all the vendors yet. VMP didn't sell me in any way to buy the AFCO unit, I asked about the triple pass unit and was worried about fitment, decided I wanted a drop in unit, looked at C&R vs AFCO, couldn't find any data evidence supporting eithers claim and bought my unit based on good rep and knowing lots of happy customers that have it installed.
It is what it is.
Of course he's going to say his is superior! What do you expect? The man has a business to run. You expect him to say, "I've got this product. It's shyte compared to the competition, but hey, I need the bread." What business would do that? He's just giving you his testimonial based on his experience with other products and the development of his own.
Van along with other active vendors like vmp and lethal (and others) do us a service and in return we purchase products from them. Van is a middle man and can sell any H/E he wants to and would profit regardless. He chose not to sell Afco because he found C&R to be a better product, that is his choice.I think it should be fairly obvious that the C&R/Shelby super comp and VMP unit would be better than other smaller units strictly on the additional surface area of the H/E. I am not sure if the difference is 1* or 20* but there has to be a difference, if it is closer to the later then I would be one of the first to purchase the bigger H/E. I am happy with my Steeda currently and I am sure any major brand H/E w/fans will suffice for the majority of users.
No but I'd expect some actual data to backup the claim. I don't know why that is such a horrible thing to ask for but I've still yet seen anything. Needless to say, to any of us that own a 07-09, any replacement will be a huge upgrade.
I have built subs that will beat out anything you can buy in a store in every category up past 30K, although I have 3 party tests to prove it will, I'd never expect to claim my product is better and have people just take my word for it.
My main hobby is HT audio, the reason high end audio is on a huge decline is the lack of any data for any of their claims. It would just be cool to have some sort of VS test.
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Not that's it's an issue anymore, but didn't the AFCOs have wiring melting problems initially? Just saying that Van got it right the first time out. Secondly, why is it such a big mystery where the AFCO core comes from? Should just say it comes from China, or wherever. Silence is golden, but in this case, perhaps it's beef lo mein :shrug:
I agree with Van that it's costly to test on closed tracks. Instead of demanding Van "certify" the competition, why doesn't the competition certify their product? That should tell you more about the confidence about their product, and the fact that they didn't test it should tell you something.
By company I mean AFCO, not the vendors like VMP. Not knocking them :thumbsup:
By company I mean AFCO, not the vendors like VMP. Not knocking them :thumbsup:
I'm not saying AFCO is better or worse, they are not the ones claiming to be better though. What I'm saying that people seem to be blind about is that if they were tested and his came out on top, he'd have pretty much the entire market..... Taking a corner on a entire market IMO would be something I'd want if it was my product.
No ones posted any results on the C&R unit yet........
Van@RevanRacing
Active Member
I posted it years ago.
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