Building a Cobra R AI race car

[Cobra-R]

From the discussion we were having in the other thread http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482207 it got me thinking.

If you were to go out and buy a R to build into a AI race car, which year R would you choose and why? I am talking about actually building a AI race car, not buying an exhisting race car and your goal is to win. Cost of the car, as well as what it will cost to make it a winner, should be a taken into consideration.

Bruce C,
How light could a person make a 00R stripped down into a race car, but with the necessary equipment like a diff cooler ect?

I am on the fence so far.

Brian

 

[Cobra-R]

Lets take this one step further, give details on how you would build the car. IRS, solid axle, engine setup, ect.

Brian

 

[Flying Fred]

Good topic Brian. I know we had a "mild disagreement" in the NASA AI forum about a related subject. Here's where I stand:
I already had my R and open tracked it for 4 years. I immensly enjoyed the people and social aspects of those events, but frankly was getting bored with the on track stuff. Limited passing (and sometimes with rules that made little sense), no control over who ran in advanced classes, congo lines, lack of competition, etc. had me wanting more. I tried NASA's TT and that got me ready for the plunge. In fact, Ted, you and I were all experiencing and talking about the same thing at the same time.

I didn't want to ditch the R and buying a race car was not in the plans for me. With my limited mechanical skills and resources, it would have been too difficult for me to keep a race car and the R both going. (I probably would have needed to hire Doug full time!) I chose to modify my R into a race car. I knew I would never be competitive in AIX, but that was OK because my "racing goal" was to do the above things I mentioned that you can't do in OT events. As it turned out my car is similar to the better AI cars, so I actually do get some competition (though out of my class) with guys like Dave, Dean, you and about 6 others that I won't list here.

As you observed, converting my car cost was costly and a whole host of problems kept me sidelined a lot. Ted took a different approach of building a car from scratch. He too put far more $ into it and had even worse problems than I did (well, except for my fire incident). You took yet another approach and decided to buy a proven winner, well sorted car so you could be competitive.

So back to your original question. If you were to go out and buy an R for AI, which one? For me, I personally wouldn't buy ANY if my goal was to be competitive. Why? I feel you are going to pay more to buy an R because they are limited - but IMHO none of them offer a great advantage over a non-R Mustang.... especially if you buy a well sorted, proven one. I would do what you did or else buy a reasonably priced Mustang and build from there.

This may have not answered the question exactly as you phrased it, but it's my 2 cents worth on what I would do if I were starting all over with the intent on being AI competitive.
:beer:

 

[TXPD]

i am aware of a handful of SN95 Grand AM cup race cars that are all out of work and available to buy. Some are built to '95 R specs with the 351w and some are more recent mod motor cars. These cars can all be purchased and put into fit AI racing trim for $20k or less.

Compare that to what an actual R costs. You are better off finding a racing R like mine or Tom's, but those are not available very often.

 

[Flying Fred]

i am aware of a handful of SN95 Grand AM cup race cars that are all out of work and available to buy. These cars can all be purchased and put into fit AI racing trim for $20k or less.

Not that I disagree with you, but Brian specifically said "not buying an existing race car".

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Not that I disagree with you, but Brian specifically said "not buying an existing race car".

I know I'm not an R guy, and I have no asphalt racing experience but..

Looking at the amount of parts that would have to be removed and replaced, from a fairly expensive car... I would recommend building a clone.

I would also take a serious look at one of the long arm/short arm front suspensions.

Omitting an existing race car from your option list in these present economic times, I fear is going the greatly elevate your build expense.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Lets take this one step further, give details on how you would build the car. IRS, solid axle, engine setup, ect.

Brian

I do like the 5.4 idea, but I think a Ford GT block and heads with a Sullivan intake would still be a viable and potent torque monster.

Would this be AI or AIX?:shrug:

I like the Delrin IRS with perhaps a Griggs or Agent 47 front suspension. I think you are going to have to either detune or add ballast though, even in AIX.

 

[Venom_nitrous]

I would look for a wrecked, preferably rear-ended, 99-04 stang. The cobra would be a good starting area. Your best bet would be an 01 cobra with the 31 spline rear already. It makes me want to cry everytime I see one and I like it when people bring these back from the dead instead of tearing apart a fine one that could be still used on the street. You could get the CF panels to replace the wrecked ones and start with an IRS. Cut all the unnecessary support out of the trunk, doors, bumpers, and such. Go with a race fuel cell. Not feel bad about welding in a cage. For the engine, I would go with a factory stroke FRPP 5 liter mod block and a wicked intake. You could have 400 hp easy. That bitch would love to rev. This would cost so much less than an R that needs some modding.

 

[Cobra-R]

Guys, this was meant to be fun and play "what if", it was not meant to be practical.

Brian

 

[Flying Fred]

I do like the 5.4 idea, but I think a Ford GT block and heads with a Sullivan intake would still be a viable and potent torque monster.

Would this be AI or AIX?:shrug:

I like the Delrin IRS with perhaps a Griggs or Agent 47 front suspension. I think you are going to have to either detune or add ballast though, even in AIX.

Brian said AI, so you would have to detune a 5.4.... so WHY buy an engine that you have to detune??? As for an SLA suspension, I won't question the theory of better geometry, however their long term reliability has always been questionable. FWIW the AIX and AI champions both use MM coilovers (i.e. non-SLA). Ballast for AIX??? The minimum weight, WITH driver, is 2700# so I don't think so.

I would look for a wrecked, preferably rear-ended, 99-04 stang. The cobra would be a good starting area. Your best bet would be an 01 cobra with the 31 spline rear already. It makes me want to cry everytime I see one and I like it when people bring these back from the dead instead of tearing apart a fine one that could be still used on the street. You could get the CF panels to replace the wrecked ones and start with an IRS. Cut all the unnecessary support out of the trunk, doors, bumpers, and such. Go with a race fuel cell. Not feel bad about welding in a cage. For the engine, I would go with a factory stroke FRPP 5 liter mod block and a wicked intake. You could have 400 hp easy. That bitch would love to rev. This would cost so much less than an R that needs some modding.

Brian wants to know what R and what you would do. Obviously you side with me that it's best not to use any R. As for the building suggestions, you're stating the obvious. BTW, 400 HP is too much for an AI car.... unless you want a fat pig that won't handle for crap.

 

[Cobra-R]

Fred,

First, you assumed I was talking about you in that other thread, and I wasn't. You took your open track car and made it legal to race(Just like I did), you didn't build it to be a racecar like some friends of ours did. Two of the three people I had in mind when I made that comment have told me that they wished they had bought a sorted racecar.

You accepted you were not going to compete with Grizzy and just wanted to have fun, which I totally respect. I decided I wanted to compete with a car that was more competitive as well as easy to walk away from if the "worst" happend. If you still don't know who I was referring to and want to know, give me a call or PM.

Now, back to the subject at hand:

I am leaning twards a 00R at this point. Here are my reasons:

I could leave the engine alone, it is already in the hp/tq range for AI (assuming we can get weight out of the car) The 95 and 93R would require engine work to some degree.

Regardless, I would go with a IRS rear suspension, the advantages are just too great with that rear end. I would bumpsteer it, replace all the bushings, go to coilovers, and add a diff cooler.

On the front end, I would consider a SLA front end like Jimmy suggested, although I am a little leary after Freds experience with it. Otherwise I would go with a MM setup.

Weight removal would be the big thing in that car, would be great to get the car down in the sub 3000 lb range, not sure if that would be reasonable possible

Safety items are a given, so I didn't talk about that. I am sure I will add more as I think of it.

Brian

 

[Flying Fred]

If you take the 00R, you can't keep the HP in it and be under 3000# and be in AI. The one advantage you would have is that your frame rails are not notched. That, along with HP, were the things that forced me into AIX when I would have preferred AI.

 

[Cobra-R]

Post edited.

Fred,

I was addressing the posts talking about going and buying clones and exhisting race cars.

As I stated in that other thread, there are better choices out there than taking a R and making it into a racecar if you want to win AI. This was meant to be a discussion of which R would you use and why/how

Brian

 

[Cobra-R]

If you take the 00R, you can't keep the HP in it and be under 3000# and be in AI. The one advantage you would have is that your frame rails are not notched. That, along with HP, were the things that forced me into AIX when I would have preferred AI.

Fred,

What was the stock rwhp of the 00R? It has been so long that I forget. I was thinking in the 340 hp range (yes, to much for a sub 3000 lb car)


Brian

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Guys, this was meant to be fun and play "what if", it was not meant to be practical.

Brian

OH!!!
OK then!

14" Stoptech brakes or equivelent
LA SA front suspension
Tiger racing carbon fiber wide body goodies, including ducted hood
Delrin IRS w/4:10 gears and TrueTrac or T2R and diff cooler
Ford GT block with dry sump and engine lowered in chassis with higher comp pistons while you are in there (and a tune of course) maybe GT cams?
Lexan everywhere possible
Ubber light racing 18"x 10" or 11" wheels

Did Rs have an aluminum drive shaft? If not carbon fiber FTW!

Carbon fiber version of R splitter if you don't go tiger wide body
Better rear wing
Front belly pan and ducting

DAMN! That WAS fun!!!:rockon::beer:


[thread jack]PS: Thanks for your tips Brian! I have been having a blast since I've been addressing my smoothness issues! I've been enjoying the car so much more and I believe I have gotten significantly faster even though the car is still WAY too softly sprung![/thread jackl]

 

[ac427cobra]

Brian and All:

Having "been there and done that" I would advise against using an R simply for the reason these are rare cars and will be quite valuable some day.

If someone is hell bent on building an R, throwing caution to the wind, I would choose a 2000 R even though it's possibly the worst choice of the bunch. I'm sure Fred would disagree and I can't say I'd blame him for what he's been through with his car. I will fully admit that I'm not up on the rules for AI and which R would be the best choice. I'm simply going on the most awesome engine with a car that has an IRS. I'm a big IRS fan.

IMHO you're going to struggle getting a 2000 R to the 3,000# mark. (sans driver) It's a damn heavy car. With a monster motor! (my favorite part) And I'm not a huge fan of the SN-95 platform, even though I own two of them ;-)

My personal choice would be an S-197 chassis. But again, I'm not familiar with the rules. So I'm sort of at a disadvantage giving my opinion regarding this.

Hope that sheds a little light on the murky water. :-D

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[Flying Fred]

Fred,

What was the stock rwhp of the 00R? It has been so long that I forget. I was thinking in the 340 hp range (yes, to much for a sub 3000 lb car)


Brian

Good memory buddy. It was advertised 385 at the flywheel and most have reported between 330-340 RWHP stock. Of course that is with those God aweful side exhausts that nobody would want on an AI car. As soon as you remove those, you're looking at gaining another 35 HP (give or take a few). When I first embarked on the conversion in early 05, my car was roughly 380 RWHP d/t exhaust mod/chip. Using the 9.5 Wt/HP limit, that put the minimum above 3600!!! IMHO that's just too stinkin heavy for an AI car. As the rules stand you would be better off with a lighter car having an engine that maximizes torque (9:1 as I recall?).... and it should handle better / stop quicker too.

 

[93SVTCobra]

I'd just use an FR-500-S and beat all 3 R's.....

If I HAD to build it from an R I'd use a 95R, go IRS, SLA and completely guy the car.

 

[ShelbyGuy]

reliability.

<snip>so WHY buy an engine that you have to detune???</snip>

 

[ac427cobra]

Here's where I stand:
I already had my R and open tracked it for 4 years. I immensly enjoyed the people and social aspects of those events, but frankly was getting bored with the on track stuff. Limited passing (and sometimes with rules that made little sense), no control over who ran in advanced classes, congo lines, lack of competition, etc. had me wanting more. I tried NASA's TT and that got me ready for the plunge. In fact, Ted, you and I were all experiencing and talking about the same thing at the same time.

Fred:

Now that I've had some time to catch up from the weekend track event, I've been able to read this thread a little more in depth.

I am in 100% total agreement with everything you've stated above and I too was thinking about going through the NASA Comp School last September at Gingerman and possibly joining the NASA Racer's Ranks and dabble in an AI race (in AIX) or two just for the hell of it.

But the NASA event we did at Road America last August was the absolute WORST offender of EVERY categorical complaint you listed above. Trust me, I was not the only one complaining either. Every single person in both the HPDE3 and HPDE4/TT run groups had a bitch. (and there were 63 of us to bitch in the HPDE4/TT run group) There were more than a dozen of us track dawgz that were fit to be tied after that event.

What strikes me as odd about the whole deal is the fact that the HPDE4/TT group in NASA should be the stepping stone for people wanting to move up into the racer ranks. What an absolute cluster**** of a run group! :fart:

If and when enough time passes where the bad taste in my mouth goes away from this nightmarish event, I may change my mind about dabbling in an event or two just for shits and giggles! :coolman: