What a time to be alive. So let me get this straight. I can modify my son’s or my own gender but not my car? Seems legit.
"Clean air act"
- Thread starter jdcobra
- Start date
Yes, totally sane to cut your dick and tits off. But can't modify your own property.
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Liberalism,..........the mental disorder.
The democucks and libtards will be the death of this Great Country.
Just take a look at how it started,........taking down statues. You can't say this, you can't say that. Taking away children's books/cartoons. Coming for our cars and guns. And so on and so on.
Wow,....talk about erasing all of America's past. They have a ****ing disdain for this Country and it starts with Christopher Columbus. Absolutely terrible.
Agreed. Unless they are stopped.
The problem is people in the hobby like FoMoCo21 or whatever a few comments up.
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He is telling you the sky isn’t falling yet you call him a problem? This has happened before and will happen again, they killed performance in the 70’s but now we have new cars that turn 10’s. This is the time for innovation and the diy spirit that got us all this rad stuff. Can’t buy a turbo kit, make one. Can’t tune? Learn from someone that can.
I was freaking out a little as well but upon further review homeboy is right, we must adapt and overcome. Thats how we screw the epa, they cannot innovate in any meaningful way, they only react.
If you want to sit back and wait because you think the EPA is here to help then by all means, sit and wait for that CARB sticker and canned tunes. You cannot even see that what that basically is , is extortion. The EPA will only allow you to make a living if you pay them enough money. That is what you and FoMoCo21 are ok with.
I say **** this overreaching government!
Joe Biden has sniffed here.
I see you're in Nashville. Do you realize TN has asked the EPA if they can stop being mandated to do emissions checks in their specific counties that require it (around Nashville are the only areas)? TN is stating their pollution numbers are doing so well, they render the checks useless at this point... The EPA is OKAY with it. If you read, the EPA basically will allow and grant states permission to make a change if it means the net results are all still good.
Air Plan Approval; TN; Removal of the Vehicle I/M Program, Hamilton County, TN
"Under the CAA, the Administrator is required to approve a SIP submission that complies with the provisions of the Act and applicable Federal regulations. See 42 U.S.C. 7410(k); 40 CFR 52.02(a). Thus, in reviewing SIP submissions, EPA's role is to approve state choices, provided they meet the criteria of the CAA. This proposed action merely proposes to approve state law as meeting Federal requirements and does not impose additional requirements beyond those imposed by state law."
Future Changes in Vehicle Emission Program.
The EPA isn't quite the boogeyman you seem to think. The States can and do have say.
Now, I believe it is still up to the county governments if they would want to cancel emissions, but if Feds/State say it's okay. That's great.
Here's the deal. The RPM act doesn't protect SHIT. 90% of the people freaking out about this are weekend warrior hobbyists with 12 second 5.0s. It doesn't matter if the RPM act passes, or some other similar act. Cats/EGR/EVAP are NEVER going to be allowed to be removed on public roads. It has been this way for decades. However they are just now enforcing it, likely due to the VW saga/Coal rolling douches about 5 years ago.
So, you're trying to save cat deletes, cat delete tunes? The only chance is for offroad use only, and at this point that is even a big stretch. It can't be proven the parts are actually going to offroad vehicles, unless you're okay with entering your VIN to show the government your car ins't registered for the roadway??? DOUBT.
People that want a cool street car, are going to have different hurdles depending on their location:
Many Southern/Midwest States with NO Emissions checks: Technically speaking these guys will be able to carry on as they have been... if there's no inspection, there's no way to actually enforce. Will they be able to get cat delete tunes? No. Is that the end of the world? No.
States/counties that do annual/semi-annual inspections: They are already supposed to be looking for cats/evap/egr. So literally nothing has changed. Also readiness indicators on to show emissions controls functioning.
Cali CARB and select other states/counties with CARB: These have it the worst, but yet they always have, nothing new. They are the ones who need CARB EO parts, and they get the lackluster tunes.
The RPM act has **** ALL to do with any of the above scenarios, because it is for offroad use vehicles. What the concern really is, would be CARB compliance spreading to all states, and then everybody needs EO'd parts. And as stated, manufacturers, will indeed adapt to this and make these parts. They will pay more, parts will cost more for us, and at the start it may be shitty gains. But I'd bet with some time the parts would make good power. If OEMs can make 800hp with all emissions on and last 150k miles, tuners and aftermarket parts can too with a bit more effort.
The thing is, I don't see any indication of this sweeping CARB EO/SMOG shit spreading to every single county in every single state? I really don't think that's happening... Unless the Feds fund the hell out of it, the states likely can't pay for it. Why can Cali/NY/Denver, CO do it currently? High taxes. But why would the Feds fund leaner states that can't "afford" to do SMOG etc., when they can just kill the cat delete/tune deletes from ever being manufactured? There's nothing to "inspect" after that point because the items shouldn't even have a way of being out there.
The current focus and focus of the last 40+ years has been making sure cars have cats. And yet I live in a metro area of 1Million+ people, and we have zero inspections. You don't think the Feds would've already forced this to happen by now? You think LUND getting a raid is going to cause the collapse of the entire market? VMP is doing just fine. They just aren't selling ****ing cat deletes. Big deal.
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The only thing going after LEGAL tuning, is CARB compliance, which is California, NY and some others. Yes they can check if you have an aftermarket tune. And yes also, there can be CARB compliant and legal aftermarket tunes.
Again. VMP was hit years ago under this same premise, and yet they are still operating. It's not a new issue. Below is what the EPA went after VMP for, and you'll notice on their site these are the particular items NOT available for purchase now:
"Between January 1, 2014, and November 2, 2015, VMP sold and offered for sale 1,409 Tuning Products (the "Subject Tuners") as described in Appendix A to this Consent Agreement, Table I. (c) VMP advertised and sold the Subject Tuners for use on 1996 to 2015 model year Ford light-duty gasoline motor vehicles. (d) The Subject Tuners and custom tunes have the ability to disable the check engine light caused by the removal or disabling of certain emission control parts, e.g., the EGR system, the catalytic converter system, oxygen sensor, or OBD system. Consent Agreement and Final Order, CAA-HQ-2019-8364 Page 7 of25 (e) Between January 1, 2014, and November 2, 2015, VMP also sold and offered for sale 45 exhaust systems that are used to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative the catalytic converter on certain Ford motor vehicles (the "Subject Catalysts Eliminator Pipes") as described in Appendix A to this Consent Agreement, Table 2. (f) Finally, between January 1, 2014, and November 2, 2015, VMP sold and offered for sale 88 superchargers that eliminated the EGR system on certain Ford motor vehicles (the "Subject EGR Eliminators") as described in Appendix A to the Consent Agreement, Table 3"
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2019-10/documents/vmptuninginccafo.pdf
If you want to learn what is really happening in these busts, and be able to determine the future of our hobby is, I suggest you dig in to this file.
At the Federal level, a tune that does not touch emissions controls, cats/evap/egr, is not technically going against the Clean Air Act, SOME argue that even gear changes, cold air kits etc. would alter emissions even if all emissions systems on in tune, however that is not what the EPA is going after clearly. As gas/diesel tuners that have been raided and hit with fines, are still being allowed to tune.
CARB SMOG is the only regulatory body that goes that step further to crack down on tunes even if they are still emissions compliant. Are all states going SMOG/CARB EO rout? No. There has been zero indication of that.
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"Here is the deal" - People are a little freaked out that the same mindset that just ****ing killed Dr. Suess is on the march. Yes it will take some time to wear states down to accept federal mandates, but it will come. You keep looking at the past 40 years - there is a shift occuring, if you haven't noticed and therefore many unknowns. No, this did not just start happening, but it seems to have been recent over the last 10 years.
You are probably right that this is not going to occur over night, but you are helpless if you cannot see where this is going over the medium term. Within the next 5 years, some will call modifying a car racists and people will lose jobs for questioning this. Modify car >>> more climate change >>> climate change = racism >>> rich white people ****ing up the planet for their hobbies. Am I crazy? Maybe, but look at the crazy shit that happens these days.
Let me ask this, why are you arguing against the "doom and gloom" folks? Is there harm in pursuing this and everyone raising their voices and increasing awareness? If you're not helping the cause then it's much simpler to sit back, relax, and let others fight it.
At a very high level, I don't entirely disagree with you. It's a lot of hype that suddenly caught traction but ultimately won't affect 95% of vehicle owners. However, this is a typical slippery slope situation and will result in the worst-case scenario if nothing is done.
Stress is a killer. Unfounded stress is completely unnecessary.
If I could sum it up, I would say, if you have a VIN'd car with literally none of the emissions left on it. Time to stress out. If you're the majority, which have basic mods on a street car with emissions on in the tune. This does not effect you.
It's not a slippery slope because it isn't even a slope. Cat deletes are, and always have been illegal, and that is what they're going after.
Edit: It just seems Lund is trying to cause a massive uproar, so that they can squirm out of EPA fines/and still have the ability to tune VIN'd racecars with no emissions. It's not for the "hobby" it's for their wallet. VMP, and all the Diesel tuners didn't cause this big of an uproar. They corrected their shit and moved on. They knew they were in the wrong.
It truly seems like Lund is using manipulation and fear mongering to get as many people on board as possible, and if it doesn't go their way they want everything to fall apart. All because they JUST got hit, when others were hit years ago. They barely sell parts so their concern is if they can't tune racecars with VINs they go out of business. Hell VMP could probably stay in business as just a parts supplier.
Edit2: Also Lund just switched away from SCT which is what EVERYONE has. So now you have to buy the new device they use, and they WILL NOT explain the reason. They say ask SCT lmao. Here's an idea they know they have big fines coming, and it's a big cash grab to pay for it... hmmm
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What if you’re not white like myself. I’m even more confused now.
Also I'm not saying don't voice concerns for the cause. I'm saying don't be misguided in doing so, otherwise your validity goes out the window.
I don't know, man. I don't believe this stuff. You have to ask the people telling my daughter she is racist, just because. It is a crazy world and frankly it is mostly white people that are the crazy ones.
But that is the thing, I thought i read somewhere, the EPA was going to use the most strict policy that we jave currently. Which would be California carb compliance, for every state.
That's not part of their current "initiative".
National Compliance Initiative: Stopping Aftermarket Defeat Devices for Vehicles and Engines | US EPA
EPA announces FY 2020-2023 Priorities for Enforcement and Compliance Assurance | US EPA
Defeat Device defined as: "defeat device, which is defined as any part or component of a motor vehicle where a “principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative” any emission control device"
"The EPA has found numerous companies and individuals that have manufactured and sold both hardware and software specifically designed to defeat required emissions controls on vehicles and engines used on public roads as well as on nonroad vehicles and engines."
"Goal
This NCI focuses on stopping the manufacture, sale, and installation of defeat devices on vehicles and engines used on public roads as well as on nonroad vehicles and engines."
You’re going to be fighting a lot, wasting your time and potentially making yourself a future target. Adapt and overcome, it sucks big dix but my energy is better spent learning ways around than fighting.
Cheers brother
Nobody is debating the legality of hard emission parts. We all know removing them has and will remain illegal and I haven't seen a single person legit argue for allowing that. Yea the race-car only thing is intended for that, but that is just one piece.
TUNING is the hard issue here imo. Remove it and you cannot do most other mods. The diesel side of things has certainly been in turmoil for years. Honestly, this recent blow-up involving gassers and seeing the sheer amount of people completely clueless about any of this is happening was totally shocking to me and many others.
Regarding SCT, it is not really my business to share more, but I'll just emphasize Alex, go ask SCT, it was their decision.
Fair. I'm all for better understanding. The RPM act isn't the complete answer, but I do think something needs done or the entire industry will change for the worse.
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