Could the new S550 outperform Chevys new C7 for nearly half the cost?

[Voltwings]

Agree.

And FWIW, one of the problems for Ford is that they've painted themselves into a "pony car" corner. The C7 is not a pony car. It's far above that standard (and I'm not a Chevy fan).
Chevy clearly threw down the gauntlet in the pony car wars with the Z/28 because they can cannibalize parts off their other-planetary platforms (ZR1, C7, etc.)

Ford has NOTHING in the C7/Z28 range right now. They have nothing to compete with corvettes directly. Never have. You'd think they would introduce a platform that is designed to compete at that level. A totally different car. But no.
All we get is a watered down, Japanese looking Fustang with a 4 banger. They are gambling on the odd pairing of muscle car with good gas mileage. In my mind those two things are antithetical. That's like trying to sell me a 1.0 liter duelly pickup with a 10 gallon tank claiming that it can haul stuff (your dog), gets good mileage and is easy on the wallet. Those qualities rob from the other and makes no sense. There's no free lunch and you can't trick people with that logic Ford. Good luck with that.

Is there a business case for a low powered muscle car?
Its an oxymoron. As to your comment about no business case to compete with corvette. Thats stupid. You could say that about any make or model. Theres always competition and that means there's a market.

A company's gas mileage requirements are based on an average of all the vehicles it sells. A 30+ MPG mustang is a godsend, because it means we can have monstrous horsepower cars on the other end of the spectrum like the 13-14 GT500. Ford is not stupid, we may not be getting exactly what we want right now, but you can bet theres a reason to the madness.

As for a "low powered muscle car," i may be misunderstanding your statement, but 300+ horsepower is equal to, if not more than the past 3 generations of mustang GT's (5.0 excluded obviously) ... having owned and driven quite a few turbo 4's, they are a shit load of fun, im still a little hesitant to see one in a mustang, but putting that aside i bet that car will be a blast and a serious performer.

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

Is there a business case for a low powered muscle car?
Its an oxymoron. As to your comment about no business case to compete with corvette. Thats stupid. You could say that about any make or model. Theres always competition and that means there's a market.

Ford doesn't make a muscle car. They make a pony car. By your logic, they should sell only V8's exclusively in the mustang, which would likely make it an unprofitable endeavor.

And your second comment made absolutely no sense. The vette and viper sell in relatively low numbers. There is no business justification to jump in when there is no profit to be made.

 

[93 347 Cobra]

This will actually be the 4th year in a row that GM with a much worse car will outsell the Mustang. Also through November the Camaro is only 4000 units ahead so it makes perfect sense that the Mustang will gain 3700 units on the Camaro in December.

:dw::dw:

Seeing as how they put out 6-7 thousand cars per month the multiple-week shutdown at Flat Rock is the only thing keeping the Mustang from outselling the Camaro ytd. On a 10-year old platform with a stick-axle...

 

[germeezy1]

Seeing as how they put out 6-7 thousand cars per month the multiple-week shutdown at Flat Rock is the only thing keeping the Mustang from outselling the Camaro ytd. On a 10-year old platform with a stick-axle...

This is the 3rd year in a row....being outsold by an inferior pos car according to you Ford only enthusiasts.

 

[jymboslice]

Ok, yes, two different classes of car, but...........

Maybe not at first but acouple years into the model run

Think about it......

If the S550 weighs 200 lbs less than current 5.0 GTs then that puts it at around the same weight as a C7 which tips the scales at 3,444 lbs. Ford already said that it will handle better than a Boss Laguna Seca......and at some point in the First generation of this platform a 500 hp N/A 5.0 is only a matter of time which would put it well above the power output of the C7s LT1. The S550 GT would easily outrun a C7 stock for stock in a straight line with these characteristics and possibly around a track.

All of this is just pure speculation of course. Just fun to think about.

The new mustang is not going to be 200 pounds lighter and I bet it will have it's hands full with the piece of shit Chevy calls a camaro. I doubt it'll handle better than the boss too.


Youre on crack if you think the mustang will compete with the c7. Both look like absolute shit but the C7 will dominate it.

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

The new mustang is not going to be 200 pounds lighter and I bet it will have it's hands full with the piece of shit Chevy calls a camaro. I doubt it'll handle better than the boss too.


Youre on crack if you think the mustang will compete with the c7. Both look like absolute shit but the C7 will dominate it.

LOL

I do agree that it will not compete with the C7. And that it will have it's hands full against the Camaro. But I do believe there is a chance that the mustang could out handle the Boss.

 

[americansteel]

Yes and no. Why settle for the 5.8? Ford should make some 5.0 DOHC heads for the 6.2 SOHC block.

if ford only put a 6.2l 2v in the mustang the stang would reign supreme. I have a 6.2l in a marauder 6500RPM 536HP and 498FT lbs. im completely decimating 5.0 mustangs with 3894 pounds of 4 door fun. If 4 v heads were used on the 6.2l youre looking at 550 hp under 7k. but because of a 4 inch bore there is no need for a 4 v head.

 

[NinjaBum]

Silly thread is silly.

I doubt the V8 model has lost that much weight.

Either way, I think Ford should give GM the finger and run a 5.0 next year that meets or exceeds the LT1's power in the C7 just to screw the Camaro over. You know GM can't put a more powerful V8 in the base Camaro SS than the C7 gets or the C7 people would lose their shit and all of the simpletons who don't understand things like weight and aero who just look at HP numbers would say "why would I spend more to get less power when I can just buy a Camaro?"

 

[americansteel]

Silly thread is silly.

I doubt the V8 model has lost that much weight.

Either way, I think Ford should give GM the finger and run a 5.0 next year that meets or exceeds the LT1's power in the C7 just to screw the Camaro over. You know GM can't put a more powerful V8 in the base Camaro SS than the C7 gets or the C7 people would lose their shit and all of the simpletons who don't understand things like weight and aero who just look at HP numbers would say "why would I spend more to get less power when I can just buy a Camaro?"

we basically wrote what your comment said.

 

[darreng505]

Ford doesn't make a muscle car. They make a pony car. By your logic, they should sell only V8's exclusively in the mustang, which would likely make it an unprofitable endeavor.

And your second comment made absolutely no sense. The vette and viper sell in relatively low numbers. There is no business justification to jump in when there is no profit to be made.

A completely asinine observation. So I guess GM should not be selling the vette or SRT the viper?
And low numbers compared to what? Hondas? Ok, I grant that.

Then you should share this bit of wisdom with other low-number, unprofitable cars like Ferrari's, Porsches, BMW M-series, and other higher-end performance cars.

More expensive, performance cars obviously will have their niche. My point is that Ford has nothing in that space and the problem with that is their "pony" car is getting out-classed and out-performed by those manufacturers. Then what?

Ridiculous point..

And my other point about muscle cars and engine power is absolutely true. Sure, there are V6 Mustangs, but they are few and far between. Why? Because Americans love the V8. Period. Europeans love the 4 cylinder turbos. And that's why Ford is making one of those. Move along....

 

[Voltwings]

Few and far between? Lets be honest here, the number one selling mustang is the v6.

 

[40calcobra]

A completely asinine observation. So I guess GM should not be selling the vette or SRT the viper?
And low numbers compared to what? Hondas? Ok, I grant that.

Then you should share this bit of wisdom with other low-number, unprofitable cars like Ferrari's, Porsches, BMW M-series, and other higher-end performance cars.

More expensive, performance cars obviously will have their niche. My point is that Ford has nothing in that space and the problem with that is their "pony" car is getting out-classed and out-performed by those manufacturers. Then what?

Ridiculous point..

And my other point about muscle cars and engine power is absolutely true. Sure, there are V6 Mustangs, but they are few and far between. Why? Because Americans love the V8. Period. Europeans love the 4 cylinder turbos. And that's why Ford is making one of those. Move along....

Talk about being wrong! The v6 coupe gets the lion's share of mustang sales! You are way off base

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I see the v8 gt being 125lbs lighter than a current gt thanks to engineering gains and more advanced uses of specialty metals/fabricating.

Also, to those saying it may not handle as good as the boss or barely better, when aix teams started swapping in irs 03 cobra derived rear suspensions (appropriately modified) they were shedding 2-3 seconds per lap even with the weight gain.

This being an all new chassis with huge 15" brakes, appropriate geometry front suspension, and a competent foresight irs riding 255/275 tires on a 2" widened track (which equates to 3.5-4" of contact patch if non narrowed), as well as similar power, and a lighter weight has every possibility of manhandling a boss 302 by 2-3 seconds on most any circuit, as well as probably out pacing a boss ls by 1-2 seconds per lap.

I would not be surprised to see a brembo gt out lap a z28 assuming the gt is fitted with simple bolt ons, tune (430-450whp) and stickey 285/315 bfg rivals plus some performance pads and track rotors.

Honestly, you guys make the z28 out to be gods track car, it ran a 7:37 with gm corporate behind the scenes magic. Real world, I doubt it's faster than a zl1 on most tracks and the zl1 is proven real world to be behind or even with the gt500 on most tracks.

Add irs, new front suspension, widened track, 15" brakes, better weight distribution (probably 53/47) etc etc and the old bench marks are gonna fall.

The alpha chassis isn't gods chassis either, a ctsv sport is 3950lbs and a RWD moderately loaded ats was 3561 in motortrend/car and driver articles I saw. Throw in a v8, brace and enforce for torque, run the heavier duty bolts, chop off two doors and remove some sound deadening, you're still looking at a 35-3600lbs+ camaro, probably more like 3700 if it has even a half way decent interior and trunk vs the lackluster ones of the current gen.

"The sky is falling because z28 and alpha chassis!" Funny stuff.

Edited:
-zeta chassis to alpha
-3600lbs ats changed to 3561
-non described ats specified as moderately optioned RWD
-watch for title update 1.02 which will include new creative mode, item frames, and the Skyrim texture pack as well as a leaderboard wipe.

 

[mustangletback]

I see the v8 gt being 125lbs lighter than a current gt thanks to engineering gains and more advanced uses of specialty metals/fabricating.

Also, to those saying it may not handle as good as the boss or barely better, when aix teams started swapping in irs 03 cobra derived rear suspensions (appropriately modified) they were shedding 2-3 seconds per lap even with the weight gain.

This being an all new chassis with huge 15" brakes, appropriate geometry front suspension, and a competent foresight irs riding 255/275 tires on a 2" widened track (which equates to 3.5-4" of contact patch if non narrowed), as well as similar power, and a lighter weight has every possibility of manhandling a boss 302 by 2-3 seconds on most any circuit, as well as probably out pacing a boss ls by 1-2 seconds per lap.

I would not be surprised to see a brembo gt out lap a z28 assuming the gt is fitted with simple bolt ons, tune (430-450whp) and stickey 285/315 bfg rivals plus some performance pads and track rotors.

Honestly, you guys make the z28 out to be gods track car, it ran a 7:37 with gm corporate behind the scenes magic. Real world, I doubt it's faster than a zl1 on most tracks and the zl1 is proven real world to be behind or even with the gt500 on most tracks.

Add irs, new front suspension, widened track, 15" brakes, better weight distribution (probably 53/47) etc etc and the old bench marks are gonna fall.

The zeta chassis isn't gods chassis either, a ctsv sport is 3950lbs and an ats was 3600 in motortrend/car and driver articles I saw. Throw in a v8, brace and enforce for torque, run the heavier duty bolts, chop off two doors and remove some sound deadening, you're still looking at a 35-3600lbs+ camaro, probably more like 3700 if it has even a half way decent interior and trunk vs the lackluster ones of the current gen.

"The sky is falling because z28 and zeta chassis!" Funny stuff.

very well said,i think the same way.i think if there is the gt,mach1,gt350,and a SVT COBRA,if the mach1 has over 500hp,it will kill the z28,the gt350 hp wise will be close to the new z06,and SVT COBRA similar power to the new zr1 when it comes out.:dancenana:

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Regarding c7 though? Eh, I don't see trim to trim being competitive. Ie a base trim c7 vs base trim (v8's only) gt won't compare, but a base non z51 vs a brembo gt track pack, or whatever they end up calling it, should be close enough to be a drivable race assuming a great stang driver and average vette driver.

Throw say a Mach 1 (500hp?) factory track option loaded (like boss ls options list) at a stock c7 or z51 and ya it might beat it or lose to it barely but throw a 525+hp z06(7?) against the "Mach" and I see the vette being 3+ seconds quicker per lap. Throw a gt350 twin turbo v8 with maybe 650hp against that z06 and I see it being a drivers race, throw a zr1 with say 700hp against that and it's obvious.

That all said, I'm pretty much saying that the mustang v8 trim levels will be 1 rung below vette trim levels performance wise IMO, and this is justifiable through price and value placement up to say $70,000 for a factory 700hp mustang.

For camaro considerations, this strategy would make Chevys life difficult because it gives Chevy little to no ground to place the camaro in it's own lineup. Sales of the one will eat the other to some minor extent, why buy a $50k vette if a $40k camaro does the same performance wise, why buy a $65k vette if a $50k camaro does the same, etc etc.

Die hards will buy what they want, but at the same time, why buy a camaro when only $10k more gets you a vette?

It's a fun chess game to try and pull off if ford can reach those levels of performance. With the new chassis, I can honestly say I think ford can deliver 85+% of a corvettes performance at 65-80% of the price trim to trim and closer to 100+% at 70-85% of the price 1 trim up to 1 trim down. That's a good position to be in when your competitor has to find how to place it's "pony" car against your pony car that's pretty close to their sports car.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

With that 1 rung up 1 rung down concept, I'm saying like a $40k performance loaded v8 gt will keep up with a $50k stock non z51 c7, and a $45-50k track optioned na Mach 1 with ~500hp will outpace a $55-65k track optioned c7 z51, etc $65-75k gt350 vs $80-90k z06/7.

Comparatively, it would suck for Chevy because to compete with the stang, they'd have to overshadow the vette.

I know the c7 is very capable, but modern performance has gotten to where very capable isn't as lofty a difference vs capable.

When Ferrari f12 berlinatas are only 1.5 to .75 seconds faster around leguna seca than gt500's and zl1's (1:37.xx vs 1:38.2 and 1:39.1) you get the idea.

Even if the new z06 throws down a 1:33.xx and matches the old zr1's best lap ever on leguna, I would not be surprised to see a gt350 track optioned pull a 1:35.

The viper is in need of some help dynamically, they had it pretty well sorted with the gen 3 acr x, but the gen 4 hasn't really obsoleted that car at leguna, even in ta trim it's only .2 seconds or so faster.

In general, when you get to a certain point, it's very hard to find seconds of improvement, and that's the age we are at now. It's not like 2003 where an 03 cobra maybe ran 1:45 around leguna, and mm suspension plus tires, alignment, brakes and chassis mods with bolt one got you deep into the 1:35 range. Now adays, all of those type of mods (as applicable to modern chassis) will get you 3-5 seconds, not 10. Performance and chassis dynamics have come a long way.

I imagine the 2015 mustang gt track optioned/brembo etc will nibble at a 1:39.0 and maybe hit a 1:38.8x I base that on the current boss leguna seca hitting a 1:39.5 around leguna with fords hotshot back in 2009 or 10, and motortrend hitting a 1:40.2 with a standard boss 302 in it's first test. (All of this was on great days so the 1:38 would be a hero lap as well).

 

[trolls56]

I was pricing a 1LE to my specs was 45k then I looked into a ZL1 that ended up being 60k. When building a c7 with specs same to the ZL1 it was 64k. I don't understand why a Chevy guy would buy a ZL1 when you can get a z51 with magnetic ride C7 for 4k more.

 

[germeezy1]

I would not be surprised to see a brembo gt out lap a z28 assuming the gt is fitted with simple bolt ons, tune (430-450whp) and stickey 285/315 bfg rivals plus some performance pads and track rotors.

You have no idea what the next Gen 6 Alpha based Camaro will bring to the table. Also would not the Camaro owner also be able to modify his car to match the Ford?

Honestly, you guys make the z28 out to be gods track car, it ran a 7:37 with gm corporate behind the scenes magic. Real world, I doubt it's faster than a zl1 on most tracks and the zl1 is proven real world to be behind or even with the gt500 on most tracks.

Add irs, new front suspension, widened track, 15" brakes, better weight distribution (probably 53/47) etc etc and the old bench marks are gonna fall.

The zeta chassis isn't gods chassis either, a ctsv sport is 3950lbs and an ats was 3600 in motortrend/car and driver articles I saw. Throw in a v8, brace and enforce for torque, run the heavier duty bolts, chop off two doors and remove some sound deadening, you're still looking at a 35-3600lbs+ camaro, probably more like 3700 if it has even a half way decent interior and trunk vs the lackluster ones of the current gen.

"The sky is falling because z28 and zeta chassis!" Funny stuff.

The Gen 5 Camaro is Zeta based, and the Gen 6 will be Alpha based. Also an ATS 3.6 AWD loaded weighs 3,6000 lbs, and GM's LFX V6 is lighter but only marginally so which will be offset by the ATS having more equipment, AWD system weight, and additional weight for NVH purposes.


If you are going to type long winded technical " sounding " posts about the competition it helps to be speaking about the correct platform.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

The Gen 5 Camaro is Zeta based, and the Gen 6 will be Alpha based. Also an ATS 3.6 AWD loaded weighs 3,6000 lbs, and GM's LFX V6 is lighter but only marginally so which will be offset by the ATS having more equipment, AWD system weight, and additional weight for NVH purposes.


If you are going to type long winded technical " sounding " posts about the competition it helps to be speaking about the correct platform.

I was definitely wrong in saying zeta, old habits die hard, my mistake. You are definitely wrong regarding weight. Car and driver tested a moderately well optioned and rear wheel drive at 3561lbs. If a fully optioned awd car is only 39lbs heavier, I'll gladly sell my ocean view Wyoming beach house and use the profits to buy this super light awd sedan.

 

[germeezy1]

I was definitely wrong in saying zeta, old habits die hard, my mistake. You are definitely wrong regarding weight. Car and driver tested a moderately well optioned and rear wheel drive at 3561lbs. If a fully optioned awd car is only 39lbs heavier, I'll gladly sell my ocean view Wyoming beach house and use the profits to buy this super light awd sedan.

2013 Cadillac ATS 3.6 AWD

Engine:3.6L V6 Power:321 HP / 275 LB-FT Transmission:6-Speed Auto Drivetrain:All-Wheel Drive Curb Weight:3,629 LBS

2013 Cadillac ATS 3.6 AWD Review - Autoblog