Coyote vs ls motor's

[ChiSVT]

Actually, its terribly said and much of it is wrong.

Jesus, he just said an LS3 and the 5.0L Coyote are "close". No, no they are not. Displacement plays a big factor, but the LS3 can make as much power at the rear wheels N/A as the Coyote is likely to make at the flywheel N/A. Its not the LS3's fault the Coyote only has 5.0L.

And 500rwhp N/A for $4,000 in parts IS CHEAP. A cam only car will get you to the mid 400's rwhp for even cheaper. Now that rear gears are coming out for the Camaro it will be VERY easy to make them go fast for cheap.

And this thing about Ford being more efficient. What are you basing that on? The closest recent NA engines we had to compare around the same timeframe were the 5.4L engine in the Cobra R and the 5.7L LS6 in the Z06. They were pretty comparable, but the 5.4L got worse gas mileage. When I look at efficiency, I look at power verus gas mileage. Now this can be difficult to compare as their are other variables, like weight, drag, tires, and gearing, but you can usually get a good idea. In general Ford as been behind in gas mileage on their V8's the last several years. Even the new 2011 Mustang with the Coyote is rumored to get the same mileage as the 2010 GT with a manual (16/24). Thats the same as the Camaro SS and the Mustang weighs 250-300lbs lighter and makes LESS power. It does a good job on power per liter though if that is how you are measuring efficiency.

I agree, the LSX motors have always been efficient, who cares if it's 10liters. They make good power and they get good gas mileage while being reliable.

Don't know much about Ford motors, so won't comment on them. I do know a thing or 2 about LS series motors though.

600rwhp is about the upper end for reliable power on a stock bottom end LS1, 2, 3, or 6. Not 700. It can be done, but you're rolling the dice. 550'ish is considered fairly safe with a good tune.

I agree 550rwhp is what I consider the limit while being *reliable*.

 

[mrlrd1]

I'm talking about less moving parts on the top end, yes there are more cams/valves but less actual moving parts like pushrods etc. making it more efficient and less parasitic loss. Once again nice try but you fail

Ford DOHC:

4 cams
4 cam sprockets
4 timing chains
32 valves
32 valve springs with hardware
32 hydraulic lash adjusters
32 rockers

Not counting the associated stuff like chain guides (6), tensioners (4), and fasteners, the DOHC uses OVER 140 parts on the top end! Most of which move.

GM LSx:

1 cam
1 cam sprocket
1 timing chain
16 valves
16 valve springs and hardware
16 lifters
16 rockers

That's nearly 1/3 of what the Ford uses. A comparing strictly moving parts, well, there is no comparison :rollseyes There is a reason why the mod motor is so much larger and heavier.

 

[9secondko]

Actually, its terribly said and much of it is wrong.

Jesus, he just said an LS3 and the 5.0L Coyote are "close". No, no they are not. Displacement plays a big factor, but the LS3 can make as much power at the rear wheels N/A as the Coyote is likely to make at the flywheel N/A. Its not the LS3's fault the Coyote only has 5.0L.

And 500rwhp N/A for $4,000 in parts IS CHEAP. A cam only car will get you to the mid 400's rwhp for even cheaper. Now that rear gears are coming out for the Camaro it will be VERY easy to make them go fast for cheap.

And this thing about Ford being more efficient. What are you basing that on? The closest recent NA engines we had to compare around the same timeframe were the 5.4L engine in the Cobra R and the 5.7L LS6 in the Z06. They were pretty comparable, but the 5.4L got worse gas mileage. When I look at efficiency, I look at power verus gas mileage. Now this can be difficult to compare as their are other variables, like weight, drag, tires, and gearing, but you can usually get a good idea. In general Ford as been behind in gas mileage on their V8's the last several years. Even the new 2011 Mustang with the Coyote is rumored to get the same mileage as the 2010 GT with a manual (16/24). Thats the same as the Camaro SS and the Mustang weighs 250-300lbs lighter and makes LESS power. It does a good job on power per liter though if that is how you are measuring efficiency.

uh... 412 and 426 HP is "close." And who knows yet if Ford is underrating the motor. they did massively with the Cobra and they do a little with the Shelby's. I;m not saying they are, but wouldn't be surprised.

Wow. i am surpirsed at the nonsensical logic here. You talk about how the LS CAN MAKE as much power at the wheels as the 5.0 at the flywheel. Well, gee, that can't be too hard. No doubt a 5.0 CAN MAKE as much power at the wheels as it does factory from the flywheel too.

and don't bring "gears' into a topic on modding motors. this is engine, not "gears." Any care will go faster with gears, so its a wash there. This is about the motors.

And we will see how the LS stacks up against the new tech 5.0 when its out stock for stock. And when performance upgrades come out for it, we will see what this comparo looks like.

 

[swoosh_stang]

There is a reason why the mod motor is so much larger and heavier.

FWIW, the Coyote engine weighs 430 lbs, while the aluminum LS series engines weigh 400lbs, they are not that much heavier.

 

[mebetter]

FWIW, the Coyote engine weighs 430 lbs, while the aluminum LS series engines weigh 400lbs, they are not that much heavier.

It's sad that a motor with over a liter less displacement is still heavier. Why are Ford guys being overjoyed that the mustang is making 400 hp n/a in a 5.0. BMW did that over 7 years ago in their m5 which is a 5.0. Lexus has been doing it for a few years now in their 5.0 isf. It's not like the coyote is state of the art and something new and innovative.

You guys need to understand that GM doesn't use bigger displacement motors out of necessity to make more hp. Bigger cubic inch motors are used because they make more low end torque; which means you need less gear and throttle i.e. the car is easier on gas. Case in point the LS motors all get 26+ highway mpg. And even the 505 hp ls7 with big block styled heads is not subject to the gas guzzler tax, how many Ford cars are there that make over 350 hp that get similar gas mileage?

 

[Butters916]

It's sad that a motor with over a liter less displacement is still heavier. Why are Ford guys being overjoyed that the mustang is making 400 hp n/a in a 5.0. BMW did that over 7 years ago in their m5 which is a 5.0. Lexus has been doing it for a few years now in their 5.0 isf. It's not like the coyote is state of the art and something new and innovative.

You guys need to understand that GM doesn't use bigger displacement motors out of necessity to make more hp. Bigger cubic inch motors are used because they make more low end torque; which means you need less gear and throttle i.e. the car is easier on gas. Case in point the LS motors all get 26+ highway mpg. And even the 505 hp ls7 with big block styled heads is not subject to the gas guzzler tax, how many Ford cars are there that make over 350 hp that get similar gas mileage?

The Ford guys are so excited because they have found their Obama of motors. Apparently the Coyote will cure all of there lack of base horsepower, bring punishment to those "evil" competitors and restore fairness to the horsepower wars. Hopefully the Coyote fulfills its promises just like the great Obama

 

[swoosh_stang]

The Ford guys are so excited because they have found their Obama of motors. Apparently the Coyote will cure all of there lack of base horsepower, bring punishment to those "evil" competitors and restore fairness to the horsepower wars. Hopefully the Coyote fulfills its promises just like the great Obama

I find this post very interesting considering Ford is the company that DIDN'T go to Obama asking for a handout.

 

[Butters916]

I find this post very interesting considering Ford is the company that DIDN'T go to Obama asking for a handout.

Well lets not forget that Ford was at the begging table with GM and Chrysler. They decided not to take the money because of all the strings attached.

 

[F8L BYT]

You Gm nutswingers are still here pleading your case about the Lsx that was touched by god, Well here is a news flash for ya, You are on a Ford based site and We don't give a shit:loser: We all know how capable the lsx motors are and the power potential but we could care less about you trying to convice us that the LS motors were gods creation. Thank you now GTFO and go to ls1tech

 

[mustangmanjeff]

It's sad that a motor with over a liter less displacement is still heavier. Why are Ford guys being overjoyed that the mustang is making 400 hp n/a in a 5.0. BMW did that over 7 years ago in their m5 which is a 5.0. Lexus has been doing it for a few years now in their 5.0 isf. It's not like the coyote is state of the art and something new and innovative.

You guys need to understand that GM doesn't use bigger displacement motors out of necessity to make more hp. Bigger cubic inch motors are used because they make more low end torque; which means you need less gear and throttle i.e. the car is easier on gas. Case in point the LS motors all get 26+ highway mpg. And even the 505 hp ls7 with big block styled heads is not subject to the gas guzzler tax, how many Ford cars are there that make over 350 hp that get similar gas mileage?

haha u are a typical gm camaro lover, chevy didnt make 400hp n/a in the camaro either UNTIL NOW 2010 and it took 6.0 liters to do it, and its a tank it weighs in @ 3,800lbs, and yeah bmw did it 7 years ago and lexus? but those are 40-70,000 cars, were talking about entry level v8 gt mustang that cost $30k that makes 400hp n/a horsepower out of 5.0 liters, cheapest 400hp car you can buy stock, it not only makes more power then dodges 5.7 liter hemi and chevys older ls1 camaro and vette motor, it makes lil more horsepower then the ls6 c5 z06 and similar horsepower as the new ls3, so ur a retard thats why every 1 is happy in ford camp and u gm guys are all pissy,


its ok dont act like 400hp is normal for chevy guys to, chevy didnt have 400hp in a camaro until now and theres plenty of corvettes before todays that only had 200-300hp as well stock did u forget that all of the 80's and 90's the corvette was only 200-350horsepower as well with 5.7 liters :bash::loser: and even the 1st z06 was only 385hp, it wasnt until chevys c5 z06 2nd run made 405hp and todays vettes, but wait those are what 50-100k cars and top end zo6's and camaro ss , now compare the shity high end camaro to a base new 2011 gt, forget comparing the gt lets compare the shelby to the camaro oh wait thats because now its reverse the camaro is slower and heavy tank we have to compare the mustang to vettes now instead of the ugly tank slowmaro

 

[Lt. ZO6]

It's sad that a motor with over a liter less displacement is still heavier. Why are Ford guys being overjoyed that the mustang is making 400 hp n/a in a 5.0. BMW did that over 7 years ago in their m5 which is a 5.0. Lexus has been doing it for a few years now in their 5.0 isf. It's not like the coyote is state of the art and something new and innovative.

You are comparing a car that costs less than half the price of the M5 and IS-F. :nonono:

 

[Cobra 6245]

You are the poster child for the statement ignorance is bliss. Are you saying that GM can't get more hp from their smaller displacement motors than they have with the bigger displacements e.g. ls2 vs ls3? Umm you really don't know lsx motors at all. Ever hear of the 5.7 ls6 it makes 405 hp. The 6.0 ls2 makes 400 hp. The 7.0 ls7 makes 505 hp the 6.2 ls9 and LSA, 638 and 555 hp. Putting ls3 heads on a ls2 is good for 25 rwhp, ask me how I know... Also they could have made 425 hp just by putting a bigger cam in the ls2 or ls6 for that matter. So there are 3 ways gm has just simply increased hp on smaller displacement motors by using things such as a cam, heads, and supercharging. Also the ls3 was designed for more cubic inches for low end torque and to better accommodate the active fuel management or vvt, the magical 16 cubic inches is not the sole reason it makes 422 hp. Second of all the ls3 motor isn't a stroked version of the ls2 it is bored. Third GM designed the ls motors long before the financial crisis they are currently in, your complete argument is the fail of a lifetime. Please never speak about LS motors again without first doing research and having some clue of what the heck you are talking about.

OK an LS7 makes 505 at 7 liters an LS2 makes 400 and an LS3 falls right in the middle at 422 just because you can put a cam in an LS2 and make 422 doesn't mean it can be done to meet emission standards and have good fuel economy, and the fact that they put vvt and active fuel management on it tells me the engineers had to figure out a way to make this motor more efficent (not like I expect them to make something thats not). Making a good motor from the factory is different than when someone buys it with intention to build it up. the old push rod design works but it is inferior to an OHC setup. You can argue but look under the hood of almost every car today and tell me what you see. Another thing is GMs financial situation started along time before the economy took a shit, it just became unavoidable at that time and if it wasn't for taxpayers like you, myself and everyone else on this forum you wouldn't have Chevy at all.

 

[Cobra 6245]

You are comparing a car that costs less than half the price of the M5 and IS-F. :nonono:

Are you saying a push rod motor is state of the art?

 

[9secondko]

Well lets not forget that Ford was at the begging table with GM and Chrysler. They decided not to take the money because of all the strings attached.

and what that means is ford wanted "free government money" but didn't NEED it. when the strings were disclosed, Ford was able to stand strong and reject such a ridiculous thing.

GM had to FIRE their CEO as part of the plan.

Ford is not only the best of the three U.S. car companies, but also the Mustang is the best ponycar - never needing to be cancelled, unlike both the Camaro and firebird - and even the challenger for that matter.

 

[Cobra 6245]

Well lets not forget that Ford was at the begging table with GM and Chrysler. They decided not to take the money because of all the strings attached.

Yeah they almost took the bitch way out but then stood up and got there self together. Now they are making money and if I'm not mistaken didn't GM take more than one loan? Maybe some nutswinging, Ls motor humping queer like yourself still loves them but they lost alot of credibility with the public and I would not be surprised if they still don't go out of business in the next few years.

 

[Butters916]

and what that means is ford wanted "free government money" but didn't NEED it. when the strings were disclosed, Ford was able to stand strong and reject such a ridiculous thing.

GM had to FIRE their CEO as part of the plan.

Ford is not only the best of the three U.S. car companies, but also the Mustang is the best ponycar - never needing to be cancelled, unlike both the Camaro and firebird - and even the challenger for that matter.

Im not going to argue that GM is perfect, far from. I would have to say that the Mustang has never been cancelled because it is a cheap car that most people could afford. Lets not forget that it was a secretary car when it was designed. The true appeal to the mustang has always been the aftermarket making parts that make it unique and perform similar to other sports cars.

 

[Cobra 6245]

Ford DOHC:

4 cams
4 cam sprockets
4 timing chains
32 valves
32 valve springs with hardware
32 hydraulic lash adjusters
32 rockers

Not counting the associated stuff like chain guides (6), tensioners (4), and fasteners, the DOHC uses OVER 140 parts on the top end! Most of which move.

GM LSx:

1 cam
1 cam sprocket
1 timing chain
16 valves
16 valve springs and hardware
16 lifters
16 rockers

That's nearly 1/3 of what the Ford uses. A comparing strictly moving parts, well, there is no comparison :rollseyes There is a reason why the mod motor is so much larger and heavier.

Maybe so but since the rest of the automobile industry has moved to OHC there must be a good reason right?

 

[Cobra 6245]

Im not going to argue that GM is perfect, far from. I would have to say that the Mustang has never been cancelled because it is a cheap car that most people could afford. Lets not forget that it was a secretary car when it was designed. The true appeal to the mustang has always been the aftermarket making parts that make it unique and perform similar to other sports cars.

First off the price of the Mustang and other pony cars has always been similar. If you wonder why GM had to cancel Camaro and Firebird just actually look at one, they are hideous and have been since 1969. Also people don't buy Mustangs because of the aftermarket, the aftermarket builds Mustang parts because people like them.

 

[PSUCOBRA96]

dont like the new 5.0, just build up the SOHC 6.2 boss engine, displacement and a newer better design, looks like thats what I will do

 

[Cobra 6245]

Actually, its terribly said and much of it is wrong.

Jesus, he just said an LS3 and the 5.0L Coyote are "close". No, no they are not. Displacement plays a big factor, but the LS3 can make as much power at the rear wheels N/A as the Coyote is likely to make at the flywheel N/A. Its not the LS3's fault the Coyote only has 5.0L.

And 500rwhp N/A for $4,000 in parts IS CHEAP. A cam only car will get you to the mid 400's rwhp for even cheaper. Now that rear gears are coming out for the Camaro it will be VERY easy to make them go fast for cheap.

And this thing about Ford being more efficient. What are you basing that on? The closest recent NA engines we had to compare around the same timeframe were the 5.4L engine in the Cobra R and the 5.7L LS6 in the Z06. They were pretty comparable, but the 5.4L got worse gas mileage. When I look at efficiency, I look at power verus gas mileage. Now this can be difficult to compare as their are other variables, like weight, drag, tires, and gearing, but you can usually get a good idea. In general Ford as been behind in gas mileage on their V8's the last several years. Even the new 2011 Mustang with the Coyote is rumored to get the same mileage as the 2010 GT with a manual (16/24). Thats the same as the Camaro SS and the Mustang weighs 250-300lbs lighter and makes LESS power. It does a good job on power per liter though if that is how you are measuring efficiency.

I think it's funny you compare mileage in a five speed car with a lower overdrive to a six speed car with a overdrive that is way out there, and you talked about mileage for the 2000 Cobra R, if no one has ever told you the 2000 Cobra R was a very low production vehicle and was basically built for road race, I don't think mileage was much of a factor.