If Ford were to implement a twin set up backed by the 10 speed auto, it would be a great platform to build upon, but would heavily prefer something other than the 5.0 coyote motor that's found in a run of the mill mustang GT. Sure it's a great motor, but I would expect Ford to use a different motor to set it apart from a mustang GT, just as they have all the other years the Shelby's have been in production. And I still suspect they will, even IF it's a 5.2 motor.
Fall 2017 GT500 supercharged voodoo, 10 speed auto and....
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If Ford were to implement a twin set up backed by the 10 speed auto, it would be a great platform to build upon, but would heavily prefer something other than the 5.0 coyote motor that's found in a run of the mill mustang GT. Sure it's a great motor, but I would expect Ford to use a different motor to set it apart from a mustang GT, just as they have all the other years the Shelby's have been in production. And I still suspect they will, even IF it's a 5.2 motor.
If Ford put a 1600hp, quad-turbo 16 cylinder motor in it, people would complain it's just like a Bugatti and not impressive.
The ZL1 is just a turd Camaro SS with a blower. Piece of crap and uninspired, right? The Viper ACR is just a loser Viper with a Pep Boys body kit. Also piece of crap, right? A new AMG S63 is absolute garbage because is just a weak S560 with bigger turbos. I guess all cars are a massive suck...
A factory blown 700+ hp Coyote with a 10 speed and GT350 suspension/brakes is awesome. A factory 750+ TT Coyote with a 10-speed and GT350 suspension/brakes, and one will be in my driveway. A factory 750+ TT Voodoo with 10-speed and GT350 suspension/brakes will be even more amazing. Who is really complaining about that?
Fantastic, I can buy a GT350 and put a blower on it. That is totally fine. But many people would love to be able to have that blown GT350 and not have a Ford dealer laugh in their face if it breaks.
The ZL1 is just a turd Camaro SS with a blower. Piece of crap and uninspired, right? The Viper ACR is just a loser Viper with a Pep Boys body kit. Also piece of crap, right? A new AMG S63 is absolute garbage because is just a weak S560 with bigger turbos. I guess all cars are a massive suck...
A factory blown 700+ hp Coyote with a 10 speed and GT350 suspension/brakes is awesome. A factory 750+ TT Coyote with a 10-speed and GT350 suspension/brakes, and one will be in my driveway. A factory 750+ TT Voodoo with 10-speed and GT350 suspension/brakes will be even more amazing. Who is really complaining about that?
Fantastic, I can buy a GT350 and put a blower on it. That is totally fine. But many people would love to be able to have that blown GT350 and not have a Ford dealer laugh in their face if it breaks.
5.2 CPC w/twins and option of 10 speed auto and 6 speed stick is my guess. Can we expect 850 hp? Why not?
I know they were working on a TT 5.0, not a TT 5.2. I also know the first pull on the TT 5.0 they got 898 rwhp at 16 psi.
Then why are they even considering a PD blower, they obviously have the turbo tech worked out on 4 and 6 cylinders and had a prototype TT v8 shown for the CJ for years now?
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Being the only domestic: OHC V8, 4v V8, TT V8 on the market just isn't special enough apparently. Even though it would deliver better drivability and ultimate performance than a 2.65 TVS.
And,........that was the last we heard or seen of that car. You have a better chance of riding a unicorn over the moon then seeing that car any more. Why is that? (Not being facetious, just curious.)
Last I heard they were waiting for a clutch, which was about a year ago or more. LOL
As a former GT500 owner this is absolutely true. The ONLY thing that made the GT500 power plants (be it 5.4 or 5.8) better than the 5.0 from the factory was it was built to hold boost.
Plenty of supercharger 5.0's out there making the same, or more, horsepower than the 5.4/5.8 at lower boost levels.
Better power plant (and should have been considering how much newer it was).
IMO only the naive (or those fixated on individuality) would be upset with a twin turbo 5.0 built to handle boost from the factory.
Even with a 2.7 TVS it would still easily be in the 700+ range with very reasonable boost.
I expect that, whatever configuration it shows up as, will be incrementally better than what's currently available. It only makes sense. Dodge could have built a hellcat that absolutely destroyed the 13/14 GT500 if they wanted to but didn't. Chevy could have built a ZL1 that absolutely destroyed the hellcat but didn't.
Nobody is going to radically raise the bar as it gives them nowhere to go either down the road.
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The 15+ Coyote motors are extremely strong and will take 7-800whp without flexing.... roughly the same as a 5.4/5.8. There are actually several examples of 15+ motors taking 900+ on the dyno. Guys have gone 150+ mph in the 1/4. The motors are stout and bad ass.
11-14 coyotes had inferior rods and were only good for about 700 max before they'd wobble.
The 5.4/5.8 is old tech. Heads dont flow as good, vavles are too small, ECU capability is not as strong as the Copperhead in the Coyotes, no adjustable vavle timing... the list goes on and on.
The new GT500 WILL have Ford's latest tech and you can bet it will be some Coyote variant of a motor.
11-14 coyotes had inferior rods and were only good for about 700 max before they'd wobble.
The 5.4/5.8 is old tech. Heads dont flow as good, vavles are too small, ECU capability is not as strong as the Copperhead in the Coyotes, no adjustable vavle timing... the list goes on and on.
The new GT500 WILL have Ford's latest tech and you can bet it will be some Coyote variant of a motor.
Breaking news!! Fords new GT500 runs 8 second 1/4 mile!!!
I HIGHLY doubt ford is targeting the Demon with the GT500. Do any of you actually believe the next GT500 will run sub 9.50's at the strip and still compete with the ZL1 1LE at the road course to?? Why would ford target either of those special package cars with a normal package GT500. Lay off the Unicorn Frapps.
The next GT500 only has to target the Hellcat & ZL1. Which is realistically doable.
Not saying ford isn't capable of building a demon slayer, they're definitely capable, but it wont be the "base" GT500.
I know aftermarket Coyotes can put down huge power numbers, and I have little concern with a SC or TT 5.0 or 5.2 durability-wise. However, I do have a concern with the amount of power you can ultimately get on pump gas while passing all of Ford's long term and worst-case-scenario testing.
Let's face it, you can only put so much heat and pressure on pump gas before it detonates. That is ultimately going to be your limiting factor. The demon makes 840 hp on race gas, but only 808 on pump gas, and that's with a 6.2L. Getting the same or more air and fuel pumped through a SC 5.0 or 5.2 requires even more cylinder pressure. I'm not sure gasoline can take it.
Direct Injection will help (extend what can be done on pump gas before detonating). Higher RPM will allow a higher peak hp number, but ultimately I believe Turbos will be the magic bullet that is needed. It takes over 200hp to drive a PD blower at these power levels. Turbos will require much less. So while the Demon will have to make over 1000 hp in order to net 800 (due to the parasitic loss from the SC), a turbo engine would only have to make 875 or so to net the same output. This would allow the smaller 5.0-5.2 to run cylinder pressures similar to the Demon (and below pump gas thresholds) and still net similar power output.
Now I'm a PD blower guy. I love them. They are my favorite power adder and my first choice 100% of the time. I hope the next FPV Mustang has one, but if it's 840+ hp you're after while being OEM level bad-gas safe, I believe you'll need either turbos or more cubes...and Ford doesn't have any performance-ready offering in the stable with more cubes unless they I make a tall deck Coyote (a la the 5.4 version of the 4.6). I just don't see that happening, but I'm a pessimist.
Let's face it, you can only put so much heat and pressure on pump gas before it detonates. That is ultimately going to be your limiting factor. The demon makes 840 hp on race gas, but only 808 on pump gas, and that's with a 6.2L. Getting the same or more air and fuel pumped through a SC 5.0 or 5.2 requires even more cylinder pressure. I'm not sure gasoline can take it.
Direct Injection will help (extend what can be done on pump gas before detonating). Higher RPM will allow a higher peak hp number, but ultimately I believe Turbos will be the magic bullet that is needed. It takes over 200hp to drive a PD blower at these power levels. Turbos will require much less. So while the Demon will have to make over 1000 hp in order to net 800 (due to the parasitic loss from the SC), a turbo engine would only have to make 875 or so to net the same output. This would allow the smaller 5.0-5.2 to run cylinder pressures similar to the Demon (and below pump gas thresholds) and still net similar power output.
Now I'm a PD blower guy. I love them. They are my favorite power adder and my first choice 100% of the time. I hope the next FPV Mustang has one, but if it's 840+ hp you're after while being OEM level bad-gas safe, I believe you'll need either turbos or more cubes...and Ford doesn't have any performance-ready offering in the stable with more cubes unless they I make a tall deck Coyote (a la the 5.4 version of the 4.6). I just don't see that happening, but I'm a pessimist.
It is fishy that just before the Demon is unveiled, spy photos of a SC Mustang test mule are "leaked" wink wink. But after the Demon package details are released, suddenly Ford announces the GT350 is coming back for another year. I speculate that Ford was planning an unveiling of the GT500/Mustang Cobra/whatever? sooner rather than later, but decided to pull back one more model year for whatever reason, and a carryover GT350 was substituted at the last minute. FPP had already taken the GT350 name off its racecar offerings this year in preparation for not having a production model of the same name to promote. Conspiracy?
No I can see that happening inside baseball wise. Save face, bring out a reining champ, why not.
They'll release something this year as an 18 as well though. There's enough demand for something that even a bullet or Mach 1 would sell out.
I know 3 people who all are dying to get a special s550 and keep it for years. 1 already has a gt350, the other 2 have boss 302's/saleens etc.
I would love if for ford finds a way to release a true boost controller equipped turbo gt500. It would need 6psi to make 700hp, and maybe allow 7-9psi for overboosting. I'd love to see it down as a true controller though vs a temporary over boost function.
They'll release something this year as an 18 as well though. There's enough demand for something that even a bullet or Mach 1 would sell out.
I know 3 people who all are dying to get a special s550 and keep it for years. 1 already has a gt350, the other 2 have boss 302's/saleens etc.
I would love if for ford finds a way to release a true boost controller equipped turbo gt500. It would need 6psi to make 700hp, and maybe allow 7-9psi for overboosting. I'd love to see it down as a true controller though vs a temporary over boost function.
They were originally going with TT 5.0 for a very limited summer release to mark the 2017 anniversary of the GT500... but they ran into hard starting and oil consumption problems. When they had a dealer meeting they got huge pushback as the projected cost at the time of with the TT as it was 83k to 85k...dealers complained they wouldn't be able to sell competitively at that price point, so they decided to scrap the TT and go to the cheaper blower (along with cutting a lot of carbon fiber). When the Demon was released, they realized that the blower wouldn't be special enough and decided to skip the summer release and the TT is back on the table with an apparent announcement in June. Also told the price point should be about 75k.
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Above all else I feel worst for the poor dealers...after all the higher the sticker the higher the ADM.
...and one more reason to thank FCA for the Demon.
Sure they make a little power, however to sell, pass all green regulations, and warranty it all without losing your ass takes more than putting a blower on a 5.0 at 700rwhp and hope it last 10k miles.
Fords own pass/fail test on all its motors are 300 hours straight many of those hours(more than half) at wot.
Show me one of these aftermarket blown 5.0 motors that can pass this at the same time passing EPA regs.
Good post!
Fair enough but its ridiculous to insinuate that "the GT500 can do it, but a FI Coyote cannot" without incredible difficulty.
Its been said, by Ford, that the Boss 302 rod (same rod used in 2015+ motors) is one of, if not the strongest rod ever made by Ford--yes including the H Beams in the Cobra. Not my words, Ford's words.
To think the motor wont last with boost shows incredible bias or ignorance. You've been known to display both so.........:shrug:
I'd be willing to bet the Roadrunner might be the most stout performance offering by Ford to date----besting the 13/14 GT500.
If you're so confident I'm sure you will warranty all those after market blowers regardless of tune or fuel delivery.
All I'm stating whatever Ford produces aftermarket will be able to beat because they don't have the rules or liabilities Ford needs to deal with. I hope that's not too hard to understand.
All I'm stating whatever Ford produces aftermarket will be able to beat because they don't have the rules or liabilities Ford needs to deal with. I hope that's not too hard to understand.
Who is talking about aftermarket blowers?
We are talking about a hypothetical Ford-produced FI Coyote-variant motor.
We are talking about a hypothetical Ford-produced FI Coyote-variant motor.
You stated that 15+ mustang 5.0 motors with aftermarket blowers are making 800rwhp with no issues.
I'm stating Ford can't do this based on what I stated above. The aftermarket does not have EPA rules or liability issues to pay for when things go wrong.
Yes the 5.0 with blower or twins will be a hell of a beast. But the fact remains the aftermarket will always put down more power.
I'm stating Ford can't do this based on what I stated above. The aftermarket does not have EPA rules or liability issues to pay for when things go wrong.
Yes the 5.0 with blower or twins will be a hell of a beast. But the fact remains the aftermarket will always put down more power.
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