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Ford equal to Junk?

Discussion in 'Road Side Pub' started by ON D BIT, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. CobraBob

    CobraBob Authorized Vendor Premium Member Established Member

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    When my Ford lease ended, I chose not to go with the Edge ST because, well, it was boring. Not a true Ford Performance ST! So I decided I wanted a car, but not a Mustang. I wanted a performance sedan. Crickets! Ford no longer offers those. So, I jumped ship and bought a Genesis G70 3.3T Sport. And I'm happy! But it's really sad that Ford has abandoned it's car offerings and it doing no marketing to excite the masses. Maybe that's because there really isn't much to be excited ABOUT.
     
  2. kevinatfms

    kevinatfms Ex-Ford/Kia/Hyundai Tech Premium Member Established Member

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    I would have loved to put a deposit on the new Fiesta ST or Focus ST. RIP Ford.
     
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  3. SHOdown220

    SHOdown220 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    +1 I would have traded my 16 FoST for a new one. I don't believe the ST badge should live on in the world of cross-overs and SUVs. Should have just killed the ST badge when they killed the FoST and FiST
     
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  4. GTSpartan

    GTSpartan Yield right!!!! Established Member

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    This is a very cyclical business, and they are just on the bottom side of the wave right now. They’ll turn things around. Ford does seem to have some more serious than usual structural issues this time around though. Limited opportunities for growth in the markets in which they compete, generally considered way behind their peers on ZEV and AV development, etc. Add to that, and I can’t believe I am even saying this, but GM’s operational efficiencies leave Ford in the dust. When has that ever been the case?

    Somehow Hack-ett has hypnotized Billy Ford into giving him the reigns of his families company
     
  5. 13COBRA

    13COBRA Resident Ford Dealer Premium Member Established Member

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    On the ST discussion. I just drove an Explorer ST this morning, awesome ride. I do no like the accelerator pedal though. It's strange.
     
  6. SolarYellow

    SolarYellow Sensei Premium Member Established Member

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    My pc knows I am looking to add another vehicle this spring. The MGT and even a Fiesta ST caught my eye with it wandering mainly towards the GT. I don't see ads for it or anything. I've been kicking around a Challenger with the scat pack and by god every time I am online I see ad after ad. I even kicked around a 150 abut fter seeing the oil drops left in my neighbors driveway from a new(er) one or two year old 5.0, I've checked it off the list.
     
  7. DSG2003Mach1

    DSG2003Mach1 Well-Known Member Premium Member Established Member

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    It's especially cyclical for Ford because they let dumb asses run things into the ground, finally hire someone like Mulally to fix it then they hire some dipshit to undo what he did and put that on repeat.

    those plastic, errr "composite", oil pans were a terrible idea. They've gone back to metal and don't have that problem anymore
     
  8. CV355

    CV355 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    "Ford's performance has eroded "during a period in which global automotive conditions have been fairly healthy," Moody's said."

    I agree with the first 4 words. Everything after that is a blatant lie.

    Automotive OEM/MFG work is a mess right now. Nobody has money, and re-tools are kludges. Many economic strategists are recommending avoiding automotive for the next two years for the industry I'm in. I thought 2014 was an abysmal year for automotive manufacturing, but 18/19 are far worse.

    Sometimes it boggles my mind how big automotive companies actually make profit. Tooling, machine, logistics, quality, scrap costs every part add up, and I just don't see how they make money. Then, I go to a stealership and see MSRPs in the $50k-$60k range for things that should really be in the $20k range and I go "hmm."

    I've worked on million dollar systems that produce a "widget" that hides under a dashboard. I've also worked on BIW systems that are well into 8 figures. Manufacturing isn't cheap. Just the capital costs (excluding labor) make it look like a non-lucrative business. I really have no idea how they make money. You don't make loss up in volume. Subtract out all of the cumulative margin from sticker price back to component price, and it does not make sense.

    Example: Tier 1 company bids on producing Component A. Component A = ((Labor + Capital + Wear/Maint + Raw Material / Incoming + Packaging) * (1/Yield) * (1/1-%Margin)) / Required Volume. In a nutshell. That's excluding project management / engineering resources. A component may cost $0.50 to make, but the compounded margins and overhead make it cost $15 to the end consumer.

    Too many hands in the pot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  9. me32

    me32 BEASTLY SHELBY GT500 TVS Moderator

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    Well the fusion sport actually was pretty nice. But a fusion st with better suspension and bigger brakes would have been great.
     
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  10. SID297

    SID297 OWNER/ADMIN Staff Member Administrator

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    The really sad thing is that the interior of the 2020 FiST is really nice. I'm not sold on the engine, but it's still a shame we won't be getting it in the US.
     
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  11. blk02edge

    blk02edge Well-Known Member Established Member

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    The number one biggest slap to me is why the hell did they even bother mentioning the Bronco...? I was so damn excited for it and now at a point where I dont care anymore. Not to mention the almost 100% guarantee that itll be a dissapointment
     
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  12. Coiled03

    Coiled03 Well-Known Member Premium Member Established Member

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    Uhh...what? It's easy. OK, maybe not "easy", but it's not super complex, either.

    1) Everyone in the entire supply chain marks everything up, the OEM usually most of all. I'm talking triple digit percentage markup, or more.
    2) Parts and service. They don't make money selling the cars. They make money on the back end when they need service.
     
  13. ON D BIT

    ON D BIT Finish First Established Member

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    Where is the bronco? But even if that is a success I don’t see them selling more than 100k units.
     
  14. 13COBRA

    13COBRA Resident Ford Dealer Premium Member Established Member

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    1. Yep. Crazy thing, dealers actually mark them DOWN haha
    2. Yep, only way dealers keep their doors open.

    In reality, manufacturers need to STOP offering rebates.

    They need to take the last 5 years or so of data, find the average amount of rebates applied to the vehicles sold, then just cut costs by that much on EVERY vehicle. Rebates are the way OEMs can control sales through their franchise system, it's bullshit.
     
  15. CV355

    CV355 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Haha, I do understand that. Where my dissertation was pointed was the "unseen" cost of manufacturing that directly affects profitability of the OEM and all tiered suppliers. I've seen fields filled with scrap parts that would easily go for $100ea on Craigslist (in fact, we have to purposefully destroy product before discarding it for that reason).

    The OEM sets a budget based on assumptions of capital and labor costs, which then trickles to Tier 1, Tier 2, 3, 4 suppliers. They're given a budget and coming in under budget = more profit. Most places have some percentage profit baked into their normal labor rates, pre-margin. Meaning, I charge $100/hr for engineering, but then apply a 25% GP on top of that, so even if I go over 25% on hours, I still make my pre-baked profit in burn rate to keep the doors open.

    I worked on one particular project in 2013, for a customer I won't name. Small injection molded components, feed/assemble/test/inspect/label them, out they go. I designed the entire mechanical system and acted as project manager. The customer (Tier 1) had five project managers involved. Five. Zero value added. If they were removed from existence, the project would have been completed faster and had no bearing on quality. Some of that cost is absorbed by the budget given by the Tier 0 OEM, but the rest is eaten by the Tier 1. They have to stay in business, so... how do they with 500% inflated overhead? They, any everyone else who "competitively" bid on the project for the Tier 0 / OEM added costs of project management, which then sets the bar for the next year's budgets. It's scope creep / bloat over time. The last 6-month business analysis I took part in put value-added efforts at less than 25% of total time for a project. Sickening. (oh, what used to cost $200k now costs $300k? Make sure accounting knows for next year... but nobody realizes that the $100k markup is bullshit water-cooler bureaucracy)

    tl;dr: An insane amount of logistics goes into automotive manufacturing, and it is hard to mentally picture how all of those transactions actually results in profit. Just like trying to visualize scales in astronomy. The cost of most things you buy is primarily bullshit, and a very small percentage is actual costs of production.

    2nd point, absolutely true.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  16. SHOdown220

    SHOdown220 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    I feel like they announced it too early and gave little information and haven't kept anyone updated. It's like they hyped it up, and now the hype is gone and the bronco is nowhere to be seen. I was excited for it, but not getting my hopes up, I truly feel like they will drop the ball and end up with an under-performing disappointment. I hope I'm wrong, I'll be in the market for an SUV in the next 3-4 years and would like to consider it as an option.
     
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  17. DSG2003Mach1

    DSG2003Mach1 Well-Known Member Premium Member Established Member

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    So would they be cutting that cost to you as the dealer and the MSRP remain the same so that margin now becomes the negotiating point between you and the customer?
     
  18. blk02edge

    blk02edge Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Yea, let all the hype fizzle and the only leak we've gotten is that its coming with the 2.3EB on a ranger chassis..... Yaaaaaaaaay. If thats true its an immediate fail no matter how correct the body lines may be.
     
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  19. Coiled03

    Coiled03 Well-Known Member Premium Member Established Member

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    You already explained it. They mark everything up so much that they're almost guaranteed to make a profit, no matter how sideways development or sales goes. They can't visualize it, or calculate it any better than you or I can. They just make sure their SWAG has enough safety factor to remain profitable.

    When we do a new product program, it's insane how we low ball our expectations so when we're done we can say what an awesome job we did at beating those expectations.
     
  20. Blk04L

    Blk04L . . . Premium Member Established Member

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    The real reason the junk rating was given was due to no v8 ecoboost.
     

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