GT350 vs. Z/28

[Lemers]

Check out the styling of Bumblebee from Transformers 4.

It looks like its on the current Camaro. Think this may be a preview of next next refresh or design cues for the next gen model?

 

[FIVEHOE]

Check out the styling of Bumblebee from Transformers 4.

It looks like its on the current Camaro. Think this may be a preview of next next refresh or design cues for the next gen model?

looks pretty sexy

 

[mustangletback]

:banana:that CRAPMARO looks like crap.

 

[thePill]

I think Bumblebee 4 would be a huge improvement over what's offered now. The 2014 Camaro looks like sh!t... With the considerable decrease in 5th Gen sales after the refresh, we may see a new 2016 Camaro that looks a lot like this.

If they have the money that is. Word is that the 5th Gen will finish in the negative. I can't tell you how bad that is for the 6th Gen's R&D. You won't see money spent if money wasn't earned.

 

[mustangletback]

I think Bumblebee 4 would be a huge improvement over what's offered now. The 2014 Camaro looks like sh!t... With the considerable decrease in 5th Gen sales after the refresh, we may see a new 2016 Camaro that looks a lot like this.

If they have the money that is. Word is that the 5th Gen will finish in the negative. I can't tell you how bad that is for the 6th Gen's R&D. You won't see money spent if money wasn't earned.

who knows,they might not get another car to even compete with a future shelby.the mustang will kick ass and take names very soon.:banana:

 

[thePill]

who knows,they might not get another car to even compete with a future shelby.the mustang will kick ass and take names very soon.:banana:

That is Team Camaro's fault... The whole z28 thing was conducted with limp wrist. Even marketing the slash between the "Z" and "28" was a sign of the marketing onslaught to come. It was also evidence that they were not serious about racing.... Pro or Am... They wanted the Boss 302 accolades but didn't do any of the work. Even though the Z/28 in GS is no more OEM than the GS.R, they still didn't start testing until a week before the race.

It's pathetic... From the half assed effort in Motorsport to the overly mismarket heritage... the car is a flop...

 

[GTSpartan]

Word is that the 5th Gen will finish in the negative. I can't tell you how bad that is for the 6th Gen's R&D. You won't see money spent if money wasn't earned.

Pill,

You and I disagree on a lot of things, but you definitely know your stuff when it comes to Mustangs, but how can you possibly know this "rumor" unless you have a mole high up in GM accounting. OEM's never release profitability numbers on individual models. Everything else is speculation and/or highly questionable extrapolation.

Good or bad, the Camaro used a lot of existing parts and architecture that had already been used for years across many different models. Very different compared to the Mustang approach. That helps greatly with depreciation.

 

[VNOMIS]

Check out the styling of Bumblebee from Transformers 4.

It looks like its on the current Camaro. Think this may be a preview of next next refresh or design cues for the next gen model?

Damn that's ugly!

 

[mustangletback]

That is Team Camaro's fault... The whole z28 thing was conducted with limp wrist. Even marketing the slash between the "Z" and "28" was a sign of the marketing onslaught to come. It was also evidence that they were not serious about racing.... Pro or Am... They wanted the Boss 302 accolades but didn't do any of the work. Even though the Z/28 in GS is no more OEM than the GS.R, they still didn't start testing until a week before the race.

It's pathetic... From the half assed effort in Motorsport to the overly mismarket heritage... the car is a flop...

i agree,and like i have said before,there are inner problems with the camaro that people dont know about.you hit it right on the head.in addition to that,its been said for a long time,the next camaro to come out will not be as light as people think,and there might not be a zl1,and a z28 at the same time.it may just be one or the other.i went to the chicago auto show,and a ford rep,did say the z28 wont have anything on their track car.epper:

 

[thePill]

Pill,

You and I disagree on a lot of things, but you definitely know your stuff when it comes to Mustangs, but how can you possibly know this "rumor" unless you have a mole high up in GM accounting. OEM's never release profitability numbers on individual models. Everything else is speculation and/or highly questionable extrapolation.

Good or bad, the Camaro used a lot of existing parts and architecture that had already been used for years across many different models. Very different compared to the Mustang approach. That helps greatly with depreciation.

The word came from Camaro5, a moderator (or stand in) at that. It was posted a few months ago and talked about briefly. The vibe was that the 5th Gen made strides elsewhere, as in the HALO effect for the brand and getting the name out there again. I am on board there... I guess it was talked about during a show or Fest, the program, profit wise, was worse than the Corvette.

Who knows, perhaps Chevy intends to elevate the Camaro up to a HALO car... Ford is taking small steps towards that goal. Look at the 5th Gens progression...

2006-2009 was an extended advertising campaign. Rumor from Steve Saleen is that Chevy even paid $20m to bump the Mustang from the Bumblebee spot. R&D and advertising for 3 full years is starting deep in the red. Budget cuts didn't seem to affect the Camaro much, maybe just delays. Material quality is justified for its ranges of MSRP. 2010 the convertible was released, and the R&D was done after the initial 2010's. The cars got heavier, although unreported, due to the structural reinforcement. 2011 the ZL1... Probably the most R&D went into to Vert and ZL1.

The extra support gained during the Vert/ZL1 probably went hand in hand. The best move Chevy made was here... I know they don't tell customers those fine details but, it's just good business. The Vert and ZL1 needed major reinforcement (like the 2007 GT's got) to support the large engine. Ford opted for a convertible at release, also a great business plan. Either way, it's costly...

The 1LE and "Z/28" programs were probably linked... If you think about it, Team Camaro said there were 3 different Z/28's. The pre-ZL1, the now ZL1 and the actual "Z/28". Which turned out to be 1LE, ZL1 and "Z/28". Programs scratched? Maybe, most likely evolved to save potentially wasted R&D dollars. Again, this is great business and nothing wrong with that.

You have a product in constant R&D since as far back as 2005... Wasn't on sale till 2009... Had to extend MY10 out to 16 months, fell short on Chevy's 150,000 sales in 12 months (129,000 in 16) and are now masking the production numbers are not good signs. They have almost equal work in the 5th Gen as Ford does the S197... the 5th Gen has only 1/3rd the sales though.

Whether or not it's true is beyond me, that's why it's only the word. I guess they could be wrong, they are on most occasions. It was discussed in short but, it only rekindled what I already knew.

On a side note, I try to approach each topic with equal skepticism and acceptance. It's a balance hard to scale... The only real delight I ever get is a chance debate with an exceptionally articulate member with overwhelmingly logic, reason and understanding... and calm.

 

[GTSpartan]

The word came from Camaro5, a moderator (or stand in) at that. It was posted a few months ago and talked about briefly. The vibe was that the 5th Gen made strides elsewhere, as in the HALO effect for the brand and getting the name out there again. I am on board there... I guess it was talked about during a show or Fest, the program, profit wise, was worse than the Corvette.

Who knows, perhaps Chevy intends to elevate the Camaro up to a HALO car... Ford is taking small steps towards that goal. Look at the 5th Gens progression...

2006-2009 was an extended advertising campaign. Rumor from Steve Saleen is that Chevy even paid $20m to bump the Mustang from the Bumblebee spot. R&D and advertising for 3 full years is starting deep in the red. Budget cuts didn't seem to affect the Camaro much, maybe just delays. Material quality is justified for its ranges of MSRP. 2010 the convertible was released, and the R&D was done after the initial 2010's. The cars got heavier, although unreported, due to the structural reinforcement. 2011 the ZL1... Probably the most R&D went into to Vert and ZL1.

The extra support gained during the Vert/ZL1 probably went hand in hand. The best move Chevy made was here... I know they don't tell customers those fine details but, it's just good business. The Vert and ZL1 needed major reinforcement (like the 2007 GT's got) to support the large engine. Ford opted for a convertible at release, also a great business plan. Either way, it's costly...

The 1LE and "Z/28" programs were probably linked... If you think about it, Team Camaro said there were 3 different Z/28's. The pre-ZL1, the now ZL1 and the actual "Z/28". Which turned out to be 1LE, ZL1 and "Z/28". Programs scratched? Maybe, most likely evolved to save potentially wasted R&D dollars. Again, this is great business and nothing wrong with that.

You have a product in constant R&D since as far back as 2005... Wasn't on sale till 2009... Had to extend MY10 out to 16 months, fell short on Chevy's 150,000 sales in 12 months (129,000 in 16) and are now masking the production numbers are not good signs. They have almost equal work in the 5th Gen as Ford does the S197... the 5th Gen has only 1/3rd the sales though.

Whether or not it's true is beyond me, that's why it's only the word. I guess they could be wrong, they are on most occasions. It was discussed in short but, it only rekindled what I already knew.

On a side note, I try to approach each topic with equal skepticism and acceptance. It's a balance hard to scale... The only real delight I ever get is a chance debate with an exceptionally articulate member with overwhelmingly logic, reason and understanding... and calm.

Your reasoning is solid, but we just don't really know how much of the developmental cost burden was carried exclusively by the camaro. There has been ~1M zeta based cars sold globally since 2006. Some scale has been achieved.

FYI, R&D expenses for U.S. companies can fall under the Research & Experimentation Act, which allows a significant portion of expenses to taken as a tax credit. It never makes it to the bottom line. Given that many of the components that make up the camaro were already being used elsewhere vs. a clean sheet design, capital costs were probably fairly modest.

 

[Shawnski]

Interesting

Yes all engines are air pumps, but don't make the mistake of an OHV to OHC apple to apple analogies. It reminds me of people using SBC methods to build SBFs. In the case of the SBF, the truer path of its intake and exhaust means you don't need to have huge amounts of CFM, because it does'nt need to make up for its unequal port lengths like a SBC head (Siamese). People underestimate the potential of the factory 5.0 E7 for example because it has "puny" exhaust ports, but when correctly ported they are actually a very good performing head and being iron promotes excellent exhaust scavenging (heat). Hard to beat a $1200 set of aluminum heads but you can...and win.

Since we are talking physics here, let's examine the so called low torque Mod motor. As stated earlier the 2 v makes excellent torque because of fast velocity build since it has modest port volume and relatively long intake track. The 4v is the best performance head currently available from Detroit (the most potential with factory parts by far), it has the valve area of a larger bore big valve 2v, yet offers good low end velocity since it is two smaller straws vs one big straw to promote energy at lower RPM....the long rod mod engine with multiple small valves is simply a better air pump across a wider RPM "torque curve". GM simply counters with more cc to offset design inferiority, remember all pushrods interfere with exhaust and intake port design i.e. compromise.

Yes a pushrods motor is smaller, but if your car is designed around the engine well I guess it fits. Pulling engines is not a reason to buy a car! Last I checked Coyotes fit in any Ford I car to race.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I think you make great points. I guess in the end, the modular was a good enough engine for Panoz and Koenigsegg to utilize/base their past and present engines around.

Koenigsegg now makes it's own engine, but there is no denying that fords modular has a lot of similarities to the koenigseggs in house development.

Yes hennessey has made 1300hp with ohv, but I can say without question that koenigseggs 1300hp 4v is much more reliable. Also, hennesseys fastest accelerating vehicle to date, I believe, is still a 1500whp ford gt that utilized stock block, heads (ported) etc and I believe stock crank but new pistons/rods iirc, maybe not though.

Again, I get that these are highly specialized examples, and that koenigseggs mill is now their own, but they used ford mills thru 2007, and their 5.0 4v used now still has many similar design considerations with the ford mill.

 

[mustangletback]

:dancenana:looking at randy drive the new z28,and seeing that it barely beats the Boss 302 in the 1/4 mile tells me,that the tires that ar on that z28,plus the power is the only reason it beats the BOSS 302 around the track.Randy at the end said the Boss puts down the power better.so,with a 475hp track-pack new mustang,it could very well upset the z28,with out the gt350.that would crush the Government Motor boys.

 

[Deranged2013]

:dancenana:looking at randy drive the new z28,and seeing that it barely beats the Boss 302 in the 1/4 mile tells me,that the tires that ar on that z28,plus the power is the only reason it beats the BOSS 302 around the track.Randy at the end said the Boss puts down the power better.so,with a 475hp track-pack new mustang,it could very well upset the z28,with out the gt350.that would crush the Government Motor boys.

Don't think we will be lucky enough to see a 475hp GT anytime soon but even if we get the rumored 435 to 450, plus IRS, more balance, and less weight, I still think it will upset the Z28. Ford already said it is pulling quicker times than the LS Boss.

 

[5 DOT 0]

:dancenana:looking at randy drive the new z28,and seeing that it barely beats the Boss 302 in the 1/4 mile tells me,that the tires that ar on that z28,plus the power is the only reason it beats the BOSS 302 around the track.Randy at the end said the Boss puts down the power better...

The Trefeo R tires are just short of a Hoosier R6. Put a set of 285 and 305 Trefeo R tires on stock Boss 302 LS wheels and run them stock and it will be close.

 

[mustangletback]

Don't think we will be lucky enough to see a 475hp GT anytime soon but even if we get the rumored 435 to 450, plus IRS, more balance, and less weight, I still think it will upset the Z28. Ford already said it is pulling quicker times than the LS Boss.

i hope it is quicker,that would really rubb piss in the z28s face.:banana:

 

[RTD]

We live in strange times.

Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 vs. Porsche 911 Turbo S vs. Nissan GT-R Comparison - Motor Trend

They put the Z28 against a 2014 Nissan GTR Track Edition and a 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo S and the Z28 annhiliated both on the road track (Barber). However, the Porsche and Nissan destroyed the Z28 in the 1/4 mile.

The Z28 is the real deal. If only it were 250 lbs lighter.

Will be interesting to see how the GT350 stacks up. Hopefully Ford learns a lesson and puts a decent tire on it.

 

[mustangletback]

We live in strange times.

Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 vs. Porsche 911 Turbo S vs. Nissan GT-R Comparison - Motor Trend

They put the Z28 against a 2014 Nissan GTR Track Edition and a 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo S and the Z28 annhiliated both on the road track (Barber). However, the Porsche and Nissan destroyed the Z28 in the 1/4 mile.

The Z28 is the real deal. If only it were 250 lbs lighter.

Will be interesting to see how the GT350 stacks up. Hopefully Ford learns a lesson and puts a decent tire on it.

i saw that,and to ME,i really dont believe that the z28 really beat the gtr on the track.the reason why i think that way is because chevy has a record of sending out ringer cars that are suped up way past what they will sell to the public.Look at the zl1,gm put out numbers for the car,and on camaro5 people that wasted their money on that car was saying that the zl1 was not as fast as gm said it was.At different tracks all over it showed,yea gm pulled a fast one on their so called numbers they got for the zl1.it was said that the zl1 would beat the Boss 302 and GT500.well maybe in a true race it can beat the Boss 302.At the leguna seca track,a zl1 did a 1:39.18,and a Boss 302 LS did a 1:39.50.thats close,looking at the power difference.the GT500 beat the zl1 at some tracks,and it was said that the zl1 won some at the track.i would like to have seen,the gtr,911s,and z28 tested on a dyno to see what power was being put out,and tested to see what kind of fuel is being used.When the GT350 comes out,i have no doubt that it will beat the z28 that is sold to the public.if it will beat the ringer z28,who knows.:dancenana:

 

[ViciousJay]

Check out the styling of Bumblebee from Transformers 4.

It looks like its on the current Camaro. Think this may be a preview of next next refresh or design cues for the next gen model?

This actually looks pretty sexy