GT500 vs GT350
- Thread starter 4VFTW
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Yep seems to talking in circles. The base will be close but since it doesn't come with those tires we have to use a 100k version and then it over priced to a 65K C8. Anything to fit a narrative.
Exactly.
It'd be good to see a Base and a CFTP car run at a given track and then to run again after swapping the wheels/tires. Instantly the Base becomes the star and the "100k" version loses much of its advantage. Heck, I'll be happy to see just a the tires alone taken out of the equation, with each car wearing the same tires. At that point the CFTP car still has ~100lb weight advantage along with more rear downforce available at high speed.
It'd be good to see a Base and a CFTP car run at a given track and then to run again after swapping the wheels/tires. Instantly the Base becomes the star and the "100k" version loses much of its advantage. Heck, I'll be happy to see just a the tires alone taken out of the equation, with each car wearing the same tires. At that point the CFTP car still has ~100lb weight advantage along with more rear downforce available at high speed.
Well I dont know what the point is debating not stock... Put a cup 2 and race pads on the C8 then... Where does it end.
In the real world, I do agree as thats what people will actually do but any form of debate or metrics is thrown out the window.
We will never see a comparison between a base with added cup 2's vs a cftp in a real professional test so thats a complete waste of keyboard strokes
In the real world, I do agree as thats what people will actually do but any form of debate or metrics is thrown out the window.
We will never see a comparison between a base with added cup 2's vs a cftp in a real professional test so thats a complete waste of keyboard strokes
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I knew you'd go this route. No need to overcomplicate.
Rubber is the big difference between the two. And most anyone that tracks any car, uses an appropriate tire. And since the CFTP cars are as good as unobtainable, you are going to see plenty of Base car owners that track change to a more appropriate tire. Simple.
Regarding a comparison - never say never. A "real professional test" will likely be done by people who will want to know the answer to the exact same question. A jack and a lug wrench are all that is needed here. No waste in sight in this regard.
Data point, related or not (so a potential "waste of keyboard strokes as some would call it). At the IMSA finale at Road Atlanta I had some great discussion with Dean Martin and Nate Stacy. I asked if they could pin down an improvement in lap times to the mere switch from Continentals to Michelins. Both Nate at Dean agreed that at Road Atlanta there was a solid 3 second improvement. This led to my next question, and I wrongly assumed that this improvement came at the expense of how long it took before the tires were wiped out. Again, both said the same thing - the Michelins last longer too. Michelin seems to be doing a great job of improving their street tire compounds as a direct result of testing to the limit in various race environments.
Same engine, transmission, driveshaft, differential, half shafts, and brakes. I'd guess that Ford tunes the Mag dampers differently between the CFTP and Base cars due to the weight of the wheel/tire package, spring rates (and I've seen nothing to indicate they are different), the friction coefficient of the tires, and the implied intended usage of the car itself. So again, the biggest variable is Ford's decision to use different tires, one with a rather large advantage at the track over the other. If the Base car is allowed to run on equal footing, the CFTP advantage quickly evaporates.
Rubber is the big difference between the two. And most anyone that tracks any car, uses an appropriate tire. And since the CFTP cars are as good as unobtainable, you are going to see plenty of Base car owners that track change to a more appropriate tire. Simple.
Regarding a comparison - never say never. A "real professional test" will likely be done by people who will want to know the answer to the exact same question. A jack and a lug wrench are all that is needed here. No waste in sight in this regard.
Data point, related or not (so a potential "waste of keyboard strokes as some would call it). At the IMSA finale at Road Atlanta I had some great discussion with Dean Martin and Nate Stacy. I asked if they could pin down an improvement in lap times to the mere switch from Continentals to Michelins. Both Nate at Dean agreed that at Road Atlanta there was a solid 3 second improvement. This led to my next question, and I wrongly assumed that this improvement came at the expense of how long it took before the tires were wiped out. Again, both said the same thing - the Michelins last longer too. Michelin seems to be doing a great job of improving their street tire compounds as a direct result of testing to the limit in various race environments.
Same engine, transmission, driveshaft, differential, half shafts, and brakes. I'd guess that Ford tunes the Mag dampers differently between the CFTP and Base cars due to the weight of the wheel/tire package, spring rates (and I've seen nothing to indicate they are different), the friction coefficient of the tires, and the implied intended usage of the car itself. So again, the biggest variable is Ford's decision to use different tires, one with a rather large advantage at the track over the other. If the Base car is allowed to run on equal footing, the CFTP advantage quickly evaporates.
Im aware of that, I even agree'd with it as i am very aware of what people actually do at tracks. Im just not sure of the point of the discussion?
I wont hold my breath seeing a legit back to back pro difference between the two though..
All I was saying to begin with is the CFTP outclasses a z51, obviously, but the base car will be a good battle. I too would love to see the C8 z51 on a cup 2 and head to head all the possible variables but again, I wont put stock on that happening.
Not a point but rather a response to the following comments from you.
There you have it. Bar size, spring rate and one would assume damper calibration. Interesting that the changes look to be somewhat minor.
We can go round in circles all day. Bottom line is that when the cars are on track as opposed to arguing what is "stock" vs what isn't, tires run the gamut from different manufacturers, different sizes, different compounds, etc. Everyone changes tires that actually tracks a car. In this case we are talking about two versions of the same car and why they differ from each other. Playing fair with an equivalent tire is just that. But you can argue to the contrary all day long.
LOL. And all bets are on once you actually take the car to the track "like everyone does."
We can go round in circles all day. Bottom line is that when the cars are on track as opposed to arguing what is "stock" vs what isn't, tires run the gamut from different manufacturers, different sizes, different compounds, etc. Everyone changes tires that actually tracks a car. In this case we are talking about two versions of the same car and why they differ from each other. Playing fair with an equivalent tire is just that. But you can argue to the contrary all day long.
Well the Demon sure gets a hard hate on as far as stock goes... Thought it was common knowledge that we only debate factory parts. Imagine saying well the C8 with cup 2s would be faster... That wouldnt go over well.
We are arguing two different things. So whatever, you can have it.
Say what you will. 1:20 at that track is ****ing fast. 5 seconds on a mid engine car is an ass kicking, and the corvette should be easy to drive fast. Point and go. You sit on the front bumper almost in the new vette.
Im not ragging on the c8 z51, I plan to buy a used one in 3-5 years and daily driver the shit out of it.
Im not ragging on the c8 z51, I plan to buy a used one in 3-5 years and daily driver the shit out of it.
I figured somebody would then throw in the Demon crate blather, yada, yada.
This isn't overly difficult. Equalizing two versions of the same car by using the same tire to counter a statement that "only the CFTP will be putting up the insane numbers. The base cars will be far off" is about as reasonable as it gets. Everyone knows the Cup2 is a great track tire and that the 4S can't match it. Point being that "far off" might correlate to a brochure on a shelf at your dealer but anybody that tracks their car isn't going to waste too much time making a choice once the set of 4S tires is shot. They won't be changing the engine, or adding an engine tune, no headers, no nitrous, no gears, etc. No. They'll go to the tire store and get some Cup2's mounted. Hardly crate parts ala Dodge.
And at that point "far off" is just that. Far off.
You are right, its not that difficult. I am comparing two cars how 99% of people on the internet compare them... From the factory..., for arguments sake as thats how it works around here. Nothing new.
Ive said about 100x that I agree, in real life people will put a cup2 on it.
Not so far off when your tires wear out and you put on a replacement set. That's what 99% of those that actually track will do. And they can do it with a factory tire that only came on the much more expensive model.
Real life is all that matters.
Real life is all that matters.
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