Heel/Toe shifting question

[MFE]

Most will tell you it's unneccessary on a modern synchronized gearbox, and frankly it isn't truly necessary, but releasing the clutch in neutral while rev-matching helps get the mainshaft to the proper speed so the synchros have much less of a job to do.

 

[BlackBolt9]

Most will tell you it's unneccessary on a modern synchronized gearbox, and frankly it isn't truly necessary, but releasing the clutch in neutral while rev-matching helps get the mainshaft to the proper speed so the synchros have much less of a job to do.

Yeah I understand that part (dad taught me about double clutching while teaching me to drive a semi-truck, i.e. no synchros). I just wondered if there was a reason why he was only doing it on downshifts instead of all the time?

My only thought was that he was doing it (along with heal-toe) to make it an even smoother downshift.:shrug:

 

[MFE]

Because double-clutching the upshift of a synchronized box provides no benefit, as on an upshift the mainshaft needs to decelerate to the appropriate RPM and its natural tendency is to do that anyway, the synchros just speed the process. Whereas in a downshift, you're forcing the shaft to accelerate, opposite its natural tendency, and it's nice to give the synchro's a helping hand.

 

[SKMCOBRA]

I bought a set of aluminum Momo pedals. The gas pedal has has an extension towards the brake pedal and are wider than std pedals too. I also wear my indoor soccer shoes as they are wider at the ball of the foot. Work on rev matching first when down shifting and then move on to adding the breaking at the same time. That really has helped me.

 

[ac427cobra]

The heel/toe technique is not really for the sake of the transmission. (although it will aid in shifting) It's to match the engine revs to the drivetrain (and ultimately the rear tires) when down shifting. Otherwise your rear tires will "hippity hop to the barber shop" while trying to accelerate the engine. This will end up upsetting the ass end of the car and cause a spin if you're driving close enough to the traction limit.

FWIW

 

[bret a ewing]

There are pedal kits available, anybody use them?

 

[SKMCOBRA]

There are pedal kits available, anybody use them?

See my previous post two above this one. I bought mine on ebay.

 

[ShelbyGuy]

Not doing the heel-toe downshifts is hard on the synchros

20 meg quicktime movie
http://nitro.vapornet.net:16080/2007/August/Northwoods/box-o-neutrals.mov

The heel/toe technique is not really for the sake of the transmission. (although it will aid in shifting) It's to match the engine revs to the drivetrain (and ultimately the rear tires) when down shifting. Otherwise your rear tires will "hippity hop to the barber shop" while trying to accelerate the engine. This will end up upsetting the ass end of the car and cause a spin if you're driving close enough to the traction limit.

FWIW

 

[ac427cobra]

Not doing the heel-toe downshifts is hard on the synchros

20 meg quicktime movie
http://nitro.vapornet.net:16080/2007/August/Northwoods/box-o-neutrals.mov

So you allowed a Corvette past you for a minor transmission issue!?! :nono:

John, I'm so disappointed! ;-) I was going to give you some Leinie's Big Eddy Russian Stout but now I think I should find a more deserving candidate!

;-)oke:

 

[gcassidy]

The heel/toe technique is not really for the sake of the transmission. (although it will aid in shifting) It's to match the engine revs to the drivetrain (and ultimately the rear tires) when down shifting. Otherwise your rear tires will "hippity hop to the barber shop" while trying to accelerate the engine. This will end up upsetting the ass end of the car and cause a spin if you're driving close enough to the traction limit.

FWIW

He said "hippity hop". :lol:

I can't wait to get my car back and try playing with pedal position.

 

[SKMCOBRA]

Not doing the heel-toe downshifts is hard on the synchros

20 meg quicktime movie
http://nitro.vapornet.net:16080/2007/August/Northwoods/box-o-neutrals.mov

Man what track was that? If you go off there you are hitting concrete for sure! OUCH!!!

 

[wheelhopper]

Took my 95 R out yesterday, since the weather was nice, and decided to practice some heel/toe on the backroads. Today I took the 03 out, to practice with that. The 03 pedal placement was much easier to heel/toe than the R. You would would think that it would be the other way around. The R pedal are spread farther apart, in depth. I would have to find some way to raise the gas pedal on my R, about 3/4 of an inch in order to get the same placement as my 03.

I found it easier to use the ball of my foot on the brake and simply give a quick rotation with the side of my foot to blip the throttle. It was not hard, but, will definitely have to practice to make it an instictive motion.

 

[MFE]

Took my 95 R out yesterday, since the weather was nice, and decided to practice some heel/toe on the backroads. Today I took the 03 out, to practice with that. The 03 pedal placement was much easier to heel/toe than the R. You would would think that it would be the other way around. The R pedal are spread farther apart, in depth. I would have to find some way to raise the gas pedal on my R, about 3/4 of an inch in order to get the same placement as my 03.

I found it easier to use the ball of my foot on the brake and simply give a quick rotation with the side of my foot to blip the throttle. It was not hard, but, will definitely have to practice to make it an instictive motion.

You'd find that in a track situation, where you're really braking hard, you're pushing the brake pedal lower, and then it's probably in a perfect position for the traditional time of heel & toe. It also helps insure you don't press the brake and the gas at the same time, which is the reason Bondurant's instructors gave me for trying to force me to actually HEEL and TOE. Fair enough, but doing so forced my leg to rotate over into the steering wheel and I couldn't steer. They gave up and let me do it my way...ball of foot on brake, flex ankle to blip gas with right side of foot.

 

[ac427cobra]

You'd find that in a track situation, where you're really braking hard, you're pushing the brake pedal lower, and then it's probably in a perfect position for the traditional time of heel & toe. It also helps insure you don't press the brake and the gas at the same time, which is the reason Bondurant's instructors gave me for trying to force me to actually HEEL and TOE. Fair enough, but doing so forced my leg to rotate over into the steering wheel and I couldn't steer. They gave up and let me do it my way...ball of foot on brake, flex ankle to blip gas with right side of foot.

I agree with this. It is very difficult to practice on the street what you're doing on the track. On the street you're going MUCH slower, things don't happen as fast, you're not depressing the brake nearly as far. All sorts of factors. But once you get on the track, everything seems to fall right into place.

FWIW

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Bear in mind that "heel & toe" is a technique for matching revs between the engine and the lower gear. We have a tendency borne of history and habit, but NOT usually of necessity, of zinging high-rev downshifts in the braking zone.

Thus the biggest problem experienced by people who try to heel & toe but haven't got the hang of it yet is they still insist on downshifting prior to corner entry, and they either slip the clutch out and fry it over time, or let it out quickly and really shock the whole car out of balance and break the rear tires loose as they get subjected to engine braking.

So...until you have it figured out, which does take some time, forget all about downshifting until just before you finally release the brakes for a corner, or even after you've released them but before you're about to go to power. Right then, the revs are closely matched and the car will take the lower gear with no muss, no fuss, no chassis upset, no grinding gears, and barely a second thought. All you're really missing is the gee-whiz sounds of a zinging downshift. And the benefit is, you get to focus all your finite mental capacity on managing your braking and your corner entry, which is arguably the time when the car is the least stable and most likely to get out of shape, rather than devoting mental bandwidth to something that's more likely as not to screw you up.

SAGE words of WISDOM spoken right there!!

I employ the last second shift method also.

1. I never learned to heel toe and didn't need to when I was Ice Racing... If you pitch the car sideways it's the same as hitting the brakes... except we would hit the gas ... FWD would pull you in and the revs are up and tires digging in before you even apex.

2. sticky tires + race pads + 4 piston Brembos + stock smushy suspension = a car that is way too easy to upset if man handled too hard.

3. Times I have shifted early... it was way too easy to upset the car on clutch release.

I brake really late and really HARD! Not a stab but still really hard. What I finally do NOT do anymore is an abrupt brake release... or an abrupt throttle up.

Everything has to be smooth or the car freaks out.

I'd like to learn heel toe to save a little wear and tear on my syncros... but I'm just too darn busy at my current skill level trying to be smooth and hooked up to even try and mess with it.:smmon:

I'm a work in proccess..:rollseyes

 

[MFE]

Sounds like you're going about it the right way, focusing on your line and the sense of balance that comes with smoothness, which will serve you well all the way down the road. :thumbsup:

 

[SKMCOBRA]

I found it easier to use the ball of my foot on the brake and simply give a quick rotation with the side of my foot to blip the throttle. It was not hard, but, will definitely have to practice to make it an instictive motion.

This is the way I have read is the correct way to do it. Your heal rests somewhat in front of the gas pedal. You roll your knee towards the wheel a bit and apply half your foot to the brake pedal. Then the right side of you foot rolls to blip the gas pedal. This is also the way my friend taught me who was taught at the Bondurant driving school in Phoenix.

You'd find that in a track situation, where you're really braking hard, you're pushing the brake pedal lower, and then it's probably in a perfect position for the traditional time of heel & toe. It also helps insure you don't press the brake and the gas at the same time.

This is the case where your brake pedal is at the same position as your gas pedal under hard braking. However the problem I had learning this method in 2007 was that my brake pedal went down too far and I actually over accelerated while braking. This was because I couldn't get my foot off of the gas pedal due to the brake pedal going down too far and being level with the gas pedal. And yes...I have completely bled my brakes, run high temp fluid and have ss brake lines.

 

[AnaheimE]

This is the way I have read is the correct way to do it. Your heal rests somewhat in front of the gas pedal. You roll your knee towards the wheel a bit and apply half your foot to the brake pedal. Then the right side of you foot rolls to blip the gas pedal. This is also the way my friend taught me who was taught at the Bondurant driving school in Phoenix.


This is the case where your brake pedal is at the same position as your gas pedal under hard braking. However the problem I had learning this method in 2007 was that my brake pedal went down too far and I actually over accelerated while braking. This was because I couldn't get my foot off of the gas pedal due to the brake pedal going down too far and being level with the gas pedal. And yes...I have completely bled my brakes, run high temp fluid and have ss brake lines.

heel-toeing has a few different variations, however the basic principle is the same. I'm sorry I haven't read the thread so I might be repeating already spoken knowledge. In mustangs, it's better to have larger feet so you can easily roll your ankle onto the throttle pedal.

I learned to Heel-Toe from practice on the street. I'm not quite there while under extreme braking, but I'm getting better. I'm also hesitant to throw in new rear gears as I know what rpms most of the speeds are at.

Does anyone think that it's better to level the mustang's pedals rather than roll the ankle? At this point I'm better with the roll. My feet are too big (size 12) and when I was driving my friends autocross spec Miata, I couldn't properly Heel-Toe because my feet would overlap onto the throttle and over-rev the engine for the speed I was at.

 

[ac427cobra]

Does anyone think that it's better to level the mustang's pedals rather than roll the ankle? At this point I'm better with the roll. My feet are too big (size 12) and when I was driving my friends autocross spec Miata, I couldn't properly Heel-Toe because my feet would overlap onto the throttle and over-rev the engine for the speed I was at.

Heel-toe originated 'back in the day' when gas pedals were attached to the floor.

In today's cars with suspended gas pedals, heel-toe is a roll of the ankle. It's just too difficult to say 'side of foot-toe'. :lol:

 

[SKMCOBRA]

Does anyone think that it's better to level the mustang's pedals rather than roll the ankle? At this point I'm better with the roll. My feet are too big (size 12) and when I was driving my friends autocross spec Miata, I couldn't properly Heel-Toe because my feet would overlap onto the throttle and over-rev the engine for the speed I was at.

The same thing still occasionally happens to me in the Slobra under very hard braking.

Heel-toe originated 'back in the day' when gas pedals were attached to the floor.

In today's cars with suspended gas pedals, heel-toe is a roll of the ankle. It's just too difficult to say 'side of foot-toe'. :lol:

That's awesome! Well said. ;-)