Heel/Toe shifting question

[David Hester]

Dunno, Y'all may be making this too hard.
I started racing motorcycles with AMA in the mid '70's, have been racing cars since '84. I've instructed for SCCA, SVTOA and Integra R club.
Braking is the important part. The ball of the foot works great for this. Not the instep, not the heel. You have the power of the upper leg and the control of the end of the foot. I only use the right most part of the brake pedal and then blip with the little toe part of my shoe or sometimes even the side. I have scuffs on the side and even the top of my right driving shoe. Simpsons to Magnum duty boots it's the same. True you can feel better with a race shoe, but not necessary.
"heel"-toe works from street to autocross to roadracing.
John Baucom of TransAM fame was my roadrace instructor years ago.
http://www.johnbaucom.com/JohnBaucomProfessionalRaceCarDriverEZeComEc.aspx John's not a big guy.
He brakes hard and just moves his knee to the right. It is enough to blip with literally the side of the foot.
www.rheacermotorsports.com

 

[Cobra-R]

Bear in mind that "heel & toe" is a technique for matching revs between the engine and the lower gear. We have a tendency borne of history and habit, but NOT usually of necessity, of zinging high-rev downshifts in the braking zone.

Thus the biggest problem experienced by people who try to heel & toe but haven't got the hang of it yet is they still insist on downshifting prior to corner entry, and they either slip the clutch out and fry it over time, or let it out quickly and really shock the whole car out of balance and break the rear tires loose as they get subjected to engine braking.

So...until you have it figured out, which does take some time, forget all about downshifting until just before you finally release the brakes for a corner, or even after you've released them but before you're about to go to power. Right then, the revs are closely matched and the car will take the lower gear with no muss, no fuss, no chassis upset, no grinding gears, and barely a second thought. All you're really missing is the gee-whiz sounds of a zinging downshift. And the benefit is, you get to focus all your finite mental capacity on managing your braking and your corner entry, which is arguably the time when the car is the least stable and most likely to get out of shape, rather than devoting mental bandwidth to something that's more likely as not to screw you up.

I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!! Best drivers I know don't heel/tow synchronized transmissions.

Brian

 

[David Hester]

My braking point entering a corner is when I see the corner worker raising the yellow flag for me
As a F&C flagger past 24 years, that can't be a good thing. :lol1:
How do y'all down shift if you don't match revs?
Racing bikes in the 70's and '80's I didn't use clutch, but matched revs every downshift. brake, blip, shift, gas
How about
Brake in straight line
blip throttle, foot still on brake
downshift, foot still on brake
turn in, foot still on brake
trailbrake to apex
throttle out
Unsettling the car isn't a problem unless your timing is off.
You are slowing anyway, so you shouldn't be spinning the heck out of the motor.

 

[BlackBolt9]

Best drivers I know don't heel/tow synchronized transmissions.

Brian

Because of this:

2005 NASA American Iron Midwest Champion.
2006 NASA American Iron Midwest Champion

in your sig, I was considering you as one of those drivers I had heard this from when I said that on the first page of this thread oke:

 

[David Hester]

I was told this years ago when I drove a Formula Ford.
Yes, it worked, but after replacing a couple of gear sets (Hewland can be changed in about 20-30 minutes) I decided it was easier on equipment and wallet to use the clutch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4&mode=related&search
BTW, I've got 4 SEDIV SCCA championships in 3 classes (Club Formula Ford, SPO, and A/Sedan) since 1994, so maybe I've picked up some good habits, I hope.
http://www.rivergate5speed.com/scca/timetrials/SoloIChampions1982-2007.pdf

 

[gcassidy]

I'm a work in proccess..:rollseyes

Ain't we all! :lol:

I just wish I had a skidpad in my neighborhood to practice more of this. Track time is too intermittent. :cryying:

 

[SKMCOBRA]

How about
Brake in straight line
blip throttle, foot still on brake
downshift, foot still on brake
turn in, foot still on brake
trailbrake to apex
throttle out
Unsettling the car isn't a problem unless your timing is off.
You are slowing anyway, so you shouldn't be spinning the heck out of the motor.

This sounds like what I do...the trailbraking is still difficult for me. I've read that it is a more advanced procedure. Timing has to be just right has been my experience for it to work right.

 

[Cobra-R]

How do y'all down shift if you don't match revs?
Racing bikes in the 70's and '80's I didn't use clutch, but matched revs every downshift. brake, blip, shift, gas
How about
Brake in straight line
blip throttle, foot still on brake
downshift, foot still on brake
turn in, foot still on brake
trailbrake to apex
throttle out
Unsettling the car isn't a problem unless your timing is off.
You are slowing anyway, so you shouldn't be spinning the heck out of the motor.

How about: brake into the corner, downshiftt right before turn in, then slowly roll on the throttle.

If a person is using trailbraking as a normal driving technique into every corner, they have some handling issues. (if you need to heel/toe shift, you have driver induced shifting issues (in a synchronized transmission))

I don't claim to be a good driver, and my comment was not meant to be referring to me as being a "good" driver. I do know the mechanics of a synchronized transmission and have driven with people that feel heel/towing is necessary. There are many more important things to worry about. A synchronized transmission does not require this in my opinion........sorry.

I have never ever had a synchronizer related failure in the years I have been tracking, sorry for feeling less than concerned about the issue here.

Brian

 

[Cobra-R]

Because of this:

2005 NASA American Iron Midwest Champion.
2006 NASA American Iron Midwest Champion

in your sig, I was considering you as one of those drivers I had heard this from when I said that on the first page of this thread oke:

I appreciate your confidence, but don't give me too much credit. If I was good I would be earning a living doing this...... or giving advice on the internet............woops............................

Brian

 

[Cobra-R]

Because of this:

2005 NASA American Iron Midwest Champion.
2006 NASA American Iron Midwest Champion

in your sig, I was considering you as one of those drivers I had heard this from when I said that on the first page of this thread oke:

Just for the record, I don't mean to give the impression that only "good" drivers don't heel/toe. It was a bad choice of words on my part, I know many good drivers that heel/toe too. My point was that I don't feel it is necessary in order to be fast in a cars like we are driving with synchrhonized transmissions. There are better things to concentrate on perfecting as far as driving technique goes ,at our level of driving.

Brian

 

[David Hester]

LOL
No problem. That's why we have chocolate and vanilla.
I'm a club racer, too, and to date haven't made a cent playing at any of this.
Just telling what works for me.
Not sure I have an issue with trailbraking or shifting with a clutch, though.:??:

trailbraking as a normal driving technique into every corner, they have some handling issues
You know I race a Fox body, don't you. ;^)

 

[ac427cobra]

IMHO,

#1. The more you have to trailbrake, the more handling issues you have! :read:

#2. After listening to Richard Spenard (Google him if you don't know who he is) sitting in my passenger's seat screaming at me (trrrottle, trrrottle-with a thick French accent) just prior to turn-in, I had no friggin' time to be jagging around with a damn shifter at that point! All of that shifting business had to be done by then. That is when my driving style changed for the better. You really don't have time to be shifting at that most critical point of turn-in. At least I don't now. There just is too damn much going on at that point and it's happening way too damn fast! :idea: Two hands MUST be on the wheel! There's no time to be dicking around with no stinking shifter! :-D

After I saw what he was telling me to do when I was sitting in the passenger seat it made a lot more sense. (yes, he drove my car as well and he loved it!)

I used to be a HUGE NASCAR fan and spent quite a bit of time in the garage area at numerous Nascar events. Talked to guys like Ricky Rudd, Mark Martin, Greg Biffle, Boris Said (we have identical hair!) etc. etc. Many others as well. These guys are professional racers that earn their living racing cars. All of them are masters at H/T'ing pedals. :idea: I've never heard of a single professional racer that didn't believe in proper H/T technique. Watching the 'foot cam' on Ricky Rudd's car at either Watkins Glen or Sears Point was memorizing for me. He IS a MASTER on the pedals! Mark Martin as well. As a foot note, Nascar transmissions are set up to the point that they hardly need a clutch to shift. They get rebuilt every 500 miles (or less) yet these guys are masters at H/T technique. Go figure! :read::idea:

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[CobraRed01]

FWIW...on the street I H/T to improve setting up for a turn (right-gear, right time, right speed) ... and....and trail-braking (on back roads in great moderation) to improve turn-in. The later really is a compensation for Mustang understeer tendancy so in effect I/we may be making up for "handling issues" with trail-braking. Although I've never been on a road race course (in anger... or bliss),I can see how you can actually be SLOWER by miss-using these techniques (more so with trail-braking). As Bruce (and others) have pointed out many times...."momentum" is the key to optimized corner speeds and lower track times on a road course. If you are over compensating with poorly executed technique that could very well be slowing you down....though it "feels" faster. So many - with significant driver mod - may be able to make their Mustang fly with or without H/T and trail-braking. Personally, I can't imagine how one could survive on a road course without H/T....it's got to help you brake harder...find the proper gear and be perfectly balanced for max momentum and power-out. Maybe some day I will have the opportunity to experience this. My guess is I will have to "unlearn" some bad habits from years of "thinking I'm going fast" on the street. :beer:

 

[BlackBolt9]

I appreciate your confidence, but don't give me too much credit. If I was good I would be earning a living doing this...... or giving advice on the internet............woops............................

Brian

From what I see it takes a lot more than just talent to make money as a road course driver. Unless you get into something like MX-5 cup where Mazda actually makes sure the winningest driver moves up to the next level.

Just for the record, I don't mean to give the impression that only "good" drivers don't heel/toe. It was a bad choice of words on my part, I know many good drivers that heel/toe too. My point was that I don't feel it is necessary in order to be fast in a cars like we are driving with synchrhonized transmissions. There are better things to concentrate on perfecting as far as driving technique goes ,at our level of driving.

Brian

I understood you correctly. I have talked with my dad about the same issues (he has been a mechanic all his life and used to drag race a bit). He had the same opinion, "it doesn't hurt but it's not necessary".

FWIW He worked mostly on over the road trucks and told me he saw a test from (I think) Allison. They gave two guys exactly similar trucks. One guy double clutched every shift, the other guy matched RPM's and slipped between gears. They got the same service intervals for lubrication and everything. At the end of the test period (about 200,000 miles IIRC) they torn down the transmissions and there was less wear on the transmission that used the clutch, however both were still completely safe functional transmissions. I don't think that applies directly but it is another data point to consider.

As far as the trailbrake issue...

I need some clarification, I only have my ill handling beast of a machine to play with at this point so I may have some confusion. I brake pretty hard and late coming into a corner then ease off the pedal. I am still coming off the pedal after turn-in to keep from upsetting the truck too much. Would that be considered trail braking or is that just using the brake pedal smoothly? I started doing it after learning to brake much more smoothly in the rain. Either way I could agree I am doing that to overcome the handling issues of the vehicle. I don't find it to be difficult to get right since I have learned to left foot brake and don't have a clutch to mess with like the rest of you guys. So one foot comes off the brakes while the other foot rolls into the throttle smoothly.

 

[David Hester]

MASTER on the pedals! Mark Martin as well.
let me bust your bubble.
1990 or 91.
Roush had a couple of Mustangs at Daytona 24 HR
We were working turn 5. Just changed corner captains and we turned around to see one of the Mustangs making a REALLY aggressive pass on a Porsche coming into the corner. I said, "If he makes that, it's going to be a hellava pass." He didn't. Mustang slams headon into the bank driver's left.
Mark was driving. Any repairs on course have to be made by driver(s) so Mark Martin, Calvin Fish and another driver were replacing left front corner as mechanics told them what to do. Someone asked Mark what had happened.

"My foot slipped off the brake and got stuck between the pedals."

 

[ac427cobra]

MASTER on the pedals! Mark Martin as well.
let me bust your bubble.
1990 or 91.
Roush had a couple of Mustangs at Daytona 24 HR
We were working turn 5. Just changed corner captains and we turned around to see one of the Mustangs making a REALLY aggressive pass on a Porsche coming into the corner. I said, "If he makes that, it's going to be a hellava pass." He didn't. Mustang slams headon into the bank driver's left.
Mark was driving. Any repairs on course have to be made by driver(s) so Mark Martin, Calvin Fish and another driver were replacing left front corner as mechanics told them what to do. Someone asked Mark what had happened.

"My foot slipped off the brake and got stuck between the pedals."

Oh, and you've never made a single mistake driving on the edge?!? :bored:

;-)oke:

 

[David Hester]

LOL
Of course.
No, I've been off several times. NEVER my fault, though!
Managed to crash through a fence once in a Formula Ford. Thought I was going to rip my head off going through it. Broke a couple of hiem joints in the front suspension was all.
Some of my girlfriend's (wife now, yeah, I married her anyway) handiwork.

BTW, it didn't buff out. :^(

 

[MFE]

I need some clarification, I only have my ill handling beast of a machine to play with at this point so I may have some confusion. I brake pretty hard and late coming into a corner then ease off the pedal. I am still coming off the pedal after turn-in to keep from upsetting the truck too much. Would that be considered trail braking or is that just using the brake pedal smoothly? I started doing it after learning to brake much more smoothly in the rain. Either way I could agree I am doing that to overcome the handling issues of the vehicle. I don't find it to be difficult to get right since I have learned to left foot brake and don't have a clutch to mess with like the rest of you guys. So one foot comes off the brakes while the other foot rolls into the throttle smoothly.

ANY braking you're still doing after the initiation of the turn is trail-braking. Even most of those who insist they don't trailbrake are probably trailbraking whether they realize it or not. And if they truly are 100% off the brakes at turn-in, they're leaving significant tire capability on the table thanks to the realities of the Traction Circle, and consequently they're not nearly as fast as they could be.

 

[BlackBolt9]

ANY braking you're still doing after the initiation of the turn is trail-braking. Even most of those who insist they don't trailbrake are probably trailbraking whether they realize it or not. And if they truly are 100% off the brakes at turn-in, they're leaving significant tire capability on the table thanks to the realities of the Traction Circle, and consequently they're not nearly as fast as they could be.

Cool, thats what I thought/understood from reading. Thanks for the clarification:thumbsup:

 

[David Hester]

I use trail braking quite a bit. It's just a habit of braking into corners. It's more of coming off the brakes slowly as to not upset the car. YingYang thing.
Come off quick, the nose wants to come up, lightens load on the front tires just as you want weight to hold your line through the corner. Yes, it can be used to tighten a line for a pass or whatever. (see below*) You continue to load front tires, just as you lighten the rear so car rotates a tad quicker than just steering. Not so sure a handling issue as a handling tool.
*A tip I have learned...finally.
If I late brake hell bent for leather into a corner, I can catch cars much faster than me going in and even make up ground at the apex, but coming out, they pull away!?!!??
Found out they were braking a tad earlier and getting on the power quicker, with better launches off the corners.
Late braking works with overtaking, but maybe quicker using a tad less other places.
If you are still braking at the apex, you are doing something wrong.
What say you, Brian?
Geez I sound like Nancy Grace. :xpl: