Heel/Toe shifting question

[gcassidy]

...Racing bikes in the 70's and '80's I didn't use clutch, but matched revs every downshift. brake, blip, shift, gas...

...I'm a club racer, too, and to date haven't made a cent playing at any of this...

Could we have crossed paths at one time?

I actually made $21 back in '76 in WERA's national series in 125GP. :beer:

 

[David Hester]

I had a good buddy Kevin Rentzell that raced WERA years ago.
I did AMA enduros and hare scrambles with SETRA ('77-'84). I got passed by Burleson, the Pentons, Roseler, Higgins, all of them.

I lied. I did get a check from BFGoodrich in 1987 for $35, but I didn't declare it on my income tax that year. DOH!:uh oh: Busted!

 

[gcassidy]

I was racing '74 to '87. Kevin was starting out around the time I was slowing down for family, etc. He was (and may still be) very good. :beer:

 

[Cobra-R]

If a person is using trailbraking as a normal driving technique into every corner, they have some handling issues.

This was meant in the sense of having to use trail-braking to get the car to rotate, the the technique I associate with the real act of trail-braking.

Guys,
There are as many driving styles as there are drivers. To make a judgement about whether they can be fast with or without a particular style is worthless, (just as worthless as comparing lap times with dis-simular cars, my pet peve).


Brian

 

[Cobra-R]

I use trail braking quite a bit. It's just a habit of braking into corners. It's more of coming off the brakes slowly as to not upset the car. YingYang thing.
Come off quick, the nose wants to come up, lightens load on the front tires just as you want weight to hold your line through the corner. Yes, it can be used to tighten a line for a pass or whatever. (see below*) You continue to load front tires, just as you lighten the rear so car rotates a tad quicker than just steering. Not so sure a handling issue as a handling tool.
*A tip I have learned...finally.
If I late brake hell bent for leather into a corner, I can catch cars much faster than me going in and even make up ground at the apex, but coming out, they pull away!?!!??
Found out they were braking a tad earlier and getting on the power quicker, with better launches off the corners.
Late braking works with overtaking, but maybe quicker using a tad less other places.
If you are still braking at the apex, you are doing something wrong.
What say you, Brian?
Geez I sound like Nancy Grace. :xpl:

Once again, I am in complete agreement. One of the biggest gains I had in dropping my lap times was when I started braking earlier so I am on the gas at or near turn in. Thats not to mention that it is a very much safer driving technique.

Like someone said earlier, what feels fast isn't necessarily fast. It is very interesting comparing driving techniques with a GPS Data Acquisition System. I recommend that very highly.

Brian

 

[dtheo]

Here is our answer to no more heel&toe, Sean Hyland Motorsports, $12,995, there was a video to this in a mustang but I can't find it. It was pretty neat though........

 

[Cobra-R]

I had no friggin' time to be jagging around with a damn shifter at that point! All of that shifting business had to be done by then. That is when my driving style changed for the better. You really don't have time to be shifting at that most critical point of turn-in. At least I don't now. There just is too damn much going on at that point and it's happening way too damn fast! :idea: Two hands MUST be on the wheel! There's no time to be dicking around with no stinking shifter! :-D:

Bruce,

I have been thinking about this and am a little confused. Are you saying that if you don't heel/toe that you are more busy and or your hands arent on the wheel at turn in?(maybe you didn't mean this as part of the heal/toe discussion) I am unclear what you are saying here.


Brian

 

[ac427cobra]

Bruce,

I have been thinking about this and am a little confused. Are you saying that if you don't heel/toe that you are more busy and or your hands arent on the wheel at turn in?(maybe you didn't mean this as part of the heal/toe discussion) I am unclear what you are saying here.


Brian

Brian:

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

What I'm saying is I try to have the shift done say 25' before the turn in. I'm kinda guessing on that distance because I don't really pay a lot of attention to the distance. It's more of a time thing. In other words the heel/toe work is completely finished just prior to the turn-in so I can concentrate more on the placement of the vehicle on the track, the exact turn-in point and getting ready to get on the throttle just a tick after turn-in to get a little weight on the rear of the car because it can be pretty unloaded at that point depending on the track and the turn. I have historically fought a loose car (I know, it's hard to explain when everyone else has a Mustang that's tight :shrug so that is why I need to shift some weight at that point. I try to keep trailbraking to a minimum because that's how I used to drive (trailbraking all the way to the apex practically) and I found I wasn't fast doing that. I was fast going in but you spend an inordinate amount of energy getting the car slowed down enough to make the turn-in. Then you're not that fast coming out. You can either go into the corner faster than you normally do or come out of the corner faster than you normally do. Not both.

I like to have both hands on the wheel just prior to turn in for smoothness and control. I can't do that if one hand is shifting right at turn-in.

That better? :-D

 

[SKMCOBRA]

I was fast going in but you spend an inordinate amount of energy getting the car slowed down enough to make the turn-in. Then you're not that fast coming out. You can either go into the corner faster than you normally do or come out of the corner faster than you normally do. Not both.

I like to have both hands on the wheel just prior to turn in for smoothness and control. I can't do that if one hand is shifting right at turn-in.

This makes total sense to me. I tend to prefer not going in so hot so I can exit faster. It is definately easier on the rotors.

 

[AnaheimE]

Brian:

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

What I'm saying is I try to have the shift done say 25' before the turn in. I'm kinda guessing on that distance because I don't really pay a lot of attention to the distance. It's more of a time thing. In other words the heel/toe work is completely finished just prior to the turn-in so I can concentrate more on the placement of the vehicle on the track, the exact turn-in point and getting ready to get on the throttle just a tick after turn-in to get a little weight on the rear of the car because it can be pretty unloaded at that point depending on the track and the turn. I have historically fought a loose car (I know, it's hard to explain when everyone else has a Mustang that's tight :shrug so that is why I need to shift some weight at that point. I try to keep trailbraking to a minimum because that's how I used to drive (trailbraking all the way to the apex practically) and I found I wasn't fast doing that. I was fast going in but you spend an inordinate amount of energy getting the car slowed down enough to make the turn-in. Then you're not that fast coming out. You can either go into the corner faster than you normally do or come out of the corner faster than you normally do. Not both.

I like to have both hands on the wheel just prior to turn in for smoothness and control. I can't do that if one hand is shifting right at turn-in.

That better? :-D

hence the old racer adage. Slow in Fast out.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

What an outstanding thread this has turned out to be!!!:rockon:

I am totally eating this up!!!

I still have a lot to learn. Autocrossing 4 cylinder RWD and FWD slugs does not really prepare you for trying to manage a 2 ton softly sprung BEAST at the speeds it is apparently capable of.
I wish I could give quality advise like these guys are... but the stuff I've done and run is just so different to my current ride.... many of my old tricks just don't work.

My time on the ICE though I do think helped quite a bit with car control and NOT over correcting.

I would also like to thank Brian for his helpful advise at the Cobra Nationals!!!

I haven't had an instructor in the car for a quite while now... yet I think it's still a good idea every now and then to just get another opinion or two.
Coming off the brakes smoother and rolling the torque in smoother really did help.... A LOT!!! Thanks!!!:rockon::beer:
Autocrossing and Ice Racing a 1600 pound Fiesta that loved to get pitched gave me a few bad habits.:bash:
But I'm working through my "ISSUES" and I think I'm starting to make pretty good progress.:rollseyes

Great thread guys keep the valuable tips coming!!!:rockon:

..

 

[ac427cobra]

Guys,
There are as many driving styles as there are drivers.

I agree on this 100%. Everybody has a different feel as to what they want the car to feel like. One person is more comfortable in a tighter car (something I never understood, but have learned to accept) and the next person wants a loose car. (something I prefer) I prefer loose because I feel you can control loose a lot more than you can control tight.

(just as worthless as comparing lap times with dis-simular cars, my pet peve).

Brian

Brian, this is something you should be used to by now. Ever since there has been performance cars, car enthusiasts and car magazines comparing all of these vehicles, there will be people comparing car performance. Since the sixties (perhaps even earlier than that because that's when I started reading Hot Rod, Car Craft, Motor Trend, Road & Track etc. etc.) cars have been reviewed by car magazines. They run 0-60, 1/4 mi, 0-100, 60-0, 100-0, lap times at Laguna or Infineon etc, etc, It doesn't matter if it's a 2 door sports car like a Porsche or a four door like a Marauder or even a station wagon like a Subaru. Some cars cost $15,000, some cost $100,000 and some cost $1,000,000 and more. ALL of these cars, their cost, HP, price, and performance numbers are all listed in the back of the magazine that they have tested. These cars are so dissimilar it's not even funny. :read: Imagine a $15,000 car listed on the same page as the Enzo! And now the "Magazine Racers" have the internet to argue these facts adnauseum!

Here's a typical scenario for you. Fred has a single buddy George that just bought a Lotus Elise for open track and driving school events. Fred's wife is expecting a baby so his wife is only going to accept a four door car. So Fred is hoping to talk her into buying a Subaru WRX STI because he read in the magazine that the Suby is only one second behind the Elise in lap times at Watkins Glen. He figures he can make up that second in driver skill because George used to drive a Corvette and he knows he's slow! ;-) How different could these two vehicles possibly be?!

What an outstanding thread this has turned out to be!!!:rockon:

I am totally eating this up!!!

I still have a lot to learn.

I haven't had an instructor in the car for a quite while now... yet I think it's still a good idea every now and then to just get another opinion or two.
Coming off the brakes smoother and rolling the torque in smoother really did help.... A LOT!!! Thanks!!!:rockon::beer:
Great thread guys keep the valuable tips coming!!!:rockon:

..

Jimmy:

EVERY time you go the the track you should learn something. Whether it's riding with other friends, talking to some fast guys, getting a tip from someone you saw go through a particular turn fast or whatever it might be.

One thing I really like about the BMW Club events I instruct at is they bring in a guest for the weekend. They are typically professional racers or retired professional racers. Instructors get his services on Friday (instructors day) and they are usually available for rides and drives. He gives us a lunch talk that is invariably hugely insightful. They also talk to students for selected classroom sessions on the weekend. I like to sit in on those sessions as well for a couple of reasons. The main reason is so I know what they learned in class so I can cover those areas on track. But the selfish reason is to pick up tid-bits of information I've never heard from anyone else.

The time the Windy City BMW Club had Ross Bently redo the student curriculum was a fantastic experience. Not only is he a great driver and racer he is remarkable at communicating the finer points of driving.

Not to mention the fact that we have all of the instructors we can ride with as well. Granted 80% or 90% of them are relatively slow but I've found even the slow guys can offer something as far as tips. Of course the fast guys give you the go fast tips. AND they are more fun to ride with! epper:

Ok, enough rambling for one night! :rollseyes

 

[wheelhopper]

Great info so far guys. My next event is coming up at VIR at the end of March. So in the mean time I am going to get some heel/toe practice in. As well as some maintenance.

Maybe I will see some of you there.

 

[Cobra-R]

Brian:

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

What I'm saying is I try to have the shift done say 25' before the turn in. I'm kinda guessing on that distance because I don't really pay a lot of attention to the distance. It's more of a time thing. In other words the heel/toe work is completely finished just prior to the turn-in so I can concentrate more on the placement of the vehicle on the track, the exact turn-in point and getting ready to get on the throttle just a tick after turn-in to get a little weight on the rear of the car because it can be pretty unloaded at that point depending on the track and the turn. I have historically fought a loose car (I know, it's hard to explain when everyone else has a Mustang that's tight :shrug so that is why I need to shift some weight at that point. I try to keep trailbraking to a minimum because that's how I used to drive (trailbraking all the way to the apex practically) and I found I wasn't fast doing that. I was fast going in but you spend an inordinate amount of energy getting the car slowed down enough to make the turn-in. Then you're not that fast coming out. You can either go into the corner faster than you normally do or come out of the corner faster than you normally do. Not both.

I like to have both hands on the wheel just prior to turn in for smoothness and control. I can't do that if one hand is shifting right at turn-in.

That better? :-D

Thanks for the explaination. Some time we are together I will pull out some incar video, in my case, you will find my hands very comfortably on the steering wheel before turn in. :beer:

Brian

 

[SKMCOBRA]

Let me add one more thing to this thread for those just beginning to attempt this method. 2007 was my first year to work on this and realize how it can really make your laps faster when done well. However be careful when on track. Your foot can slip off of the brake and hit the accelerator very quickly and potentially put you in a bad situation. I have the advantage of access to the local sheriff dept's one mile training track. I was able to practice three times with basically no other cars on the track before going to a faster track and implementing it. Just be carefull when at speed until you get the hang of it. I still have a long long way to go myself. Take it careful and be willing to run slower lap times until you are more comfortable with it.

 

[ac427cobra]

Let me add one more thing to this thread for those just beginning to attempt this method. 2007 was my first year to work on this and realize how it can really make your laps faster when done well. However be careful when on track. Your foot can slip off of the brake and hit the accelerator very quickly and potentially put you in a bad situation. I have the advantage of access to the local sheriff dept's one mile training track. I was able to practice three times with basically no other cars on the track before going to a faster track and implementing it. Just be carefull when at speed until you get the hang of it. I still have a long long way to go myself. Take it careful and be willing to run slower lap times until you are more comfortable with it.

I found that forcing myself to learn a new track was the easiest way to learn to H/T because you're relatively slow at first and gradually bring yourself up to speed.

I did it at Watkins Glen in 2004.

YMMV

 

[wheelhopper]

Since my March event is my first time at VIR that will be a perfect time for me to get my feet wet, so to speak, w/ heel/toe on a track.

 

[David Hester]

Late apex. Lotsa late apexing at VIR. Have fun!