Help with verifying correct suspension setup

[8ballBooker]

Hi, guys. Been reading a ton, and now I just want to verify that my suspension set up will be good to go when installed and that im not missing anything.

I have a 2012 base V6. This is a summer car that is not tracked, mainly a DD when weather is nice. Car is stored but want everything good to go late March/early April when it goes back on the road.

On black friday I purchased:
Eibach pro dampers (2011-2014)
Vogtland springs (1.2 drop)
20x10 foose rears +40 offset 7.0 back spacing
20x9 foose fronts +24 offset 6.2 back spacing

What I plan on buying:
Tires: Nitto nt555 285/35 rear 255/35 front
Adjustable panhard bar
New bump stops
MM camber plates

I think that's everything I need before I set up a shop appointment, but wanted to make sure. Any potential rubbing issues? Also, from what Ive read, the camber plates are much better than bolts. I hate dropping the cash, but would rather do it right the first time.

Any input is much appreciated.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[D1984]

for a 1.2" drop you don't even need camber plates. a little negative camber isn't going to kill you. it's toe that wears tires out. i zero out my toe when i get an alignment and with 2 degrees of negative camber i have completely even tire wear at a rate no faster than with 0 camber. i don't know why everybody freaks out over a little negative camber

 

[8ballBooker]

for a 1.2" drop you don't even need camber plates. a little negative camber isn't going to kill you. it's toe that wears tires out. i zero out my toe when i get an alignment and with 2 degrees of negative camber i have completely even tire wear at a rate no faster than with 0 camber. i don't know why everybody freaks out over a little negative camber

This would actually help me big time, by being able to divert money else where. Just use camber bolts? I know the gt500 mounts wont work due to the struts being 2011+. Am I going to be ok just using the factory mounts?

Forgive my ignorance, I still have a limited understanding of all suspension requirements after reading tons of threads.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[Norm Peterson]

What you should do first is make measurements of the cambers that are there now, which will give you some idea where it'd end up after the rest of the work gets done. Assuming that the car actually is lowered by 1.2", expect camber to go about 0.75° further negative. Plus or minus a little due to bolt to hole clearances allowing things to go back together in not precisely the same relationship they used to be in (think "wiggle room").

IIRC, while -0.75° is Ford's "factory preferred" camber setting, even Ford considers camber on these cars that's anywhere from 0° to -1.5° to be acceptable. So there's no need to put your car's cambers at "factory preferred". Heh . . . they may not have even been there right off the production line (My car's weren't, and they weren't even inside the range either . . . no, I did not even get that "fixed").

I more or less agree with D above that a bit more camber than factory-preferred is still do-able even in street-only driving (IOW, not autocrossing or doing HPDE days out on real road courses). That "bit more" depends to some extent on how briskly you normally tend to take corners . . . or perhaps how much more so you might start doing with the newly-firmer and more composed suspension.

Personally I don't like "camber bolts", which used to be called "crash bolts" in the repair industry (a quick, cheap way to get alignment on a crash-damaged car back somewhere near right when the car might not have been worth much to begin with). Insufficient clamp load has been identified as contributing to early S197 knuckle failures and slippage of camber settings at least in hard driving.

It's not that correcting camber at the strut to knuckle joint is a bad approach; it's the half-strength bolts that most camber-bolt suppliers provide that makes them a poor alternative to camber plates. If you can find full-strength fasteners (they'll call for something like 166 ft*lbs installation torque, where most aftermarket bolts specify something a lot closer to 80), they'd be acceptable. Ford at least used to have their own bolts and there was a necessary procedure that went along with them. I've done something very similar on a different car.

Another alternative would be Steeda's HD strut mounts, which offer some camber adjustability. Not as much as many of the plates, but having some is still better than none. I've been running the same set of these for 8 or 9 years. Like with plates, you'd just have to pick the right ones as Ford did change the strut mounting for the non-GT500 Mustangs somewhere around 2010 or 2011.


Sig pic is showing about -2° camber, tires are still fully street-legal and capable of passing inspection anywhere after 5000+ street miles . . . and over a dozen track days.


Norm

 

[8ballBooker]

What you should do first is make measurements of the cambers that are there now, which will give you some idea where it'd end up after the rest of the work gets done. Assuming that the car actually is lowered by 1.2", expect camber to go about 0.75° further negative. Plus or minus a little due to bolt to hole clearances allowing things to go back together in not precisely the same relationship they used to be in (think "wiggle room").

IIRC, while -0.75° is Ford's "factory preferred" camber setting, even Ford considers camber on these cars that's anywhere from 0° to -1.5° to be acceptable. So there's no need to put your car's cambers at "factory preferred". Heh . . . they may not have even been there right off the production line (My car's weren't, and they weren't even inside the range either . . . no, I did not even get that "fixed").

I more or less agree with D above that a bit more camber than factory-preferred is still do-able even in street-only driving (IOW, not autocrossing or doing HPDE days out on real road courses). That "bit more" depends to some extent on how briskly you normally tend to take corners . . . or perhaps how much more so you might start doing with the newly-firmer and more composed suspension.

Personally I don't like "camber bolts", which used to be called "crash bolts" in the repair industry (a quick, cheap way to get alignment on a crash-damaged car back somewhere near right when the car might not have been worth much to begin with). Insufficient clamp load has been identified as contributing to early S197 knuckle failures and slippage of camber settings at least in hard driving.

It's not that correcting camber at the strut to knuckle joint is a bad approach; it's the half-strength bolts that most camber-bolt suppliers provide that makes them a poor alternative to camber plates. If you can find full-strength fasteners (they'll call for something like 166 ft*lbs installation torque, where most aftermarket bolts specify something a lot closer to 80), they'd be acceptable. Ford at least used to have their own bolts and there was a necessary procedure that went along with them. I've done something very similar on a different car.

Another alternative would be Steeda's HD strut mounts, which offer some camber adjustability. Not as much as many of the plates, but having some is still better than none. I've been running the same set of these for 8 or 9 years. Like with plates, you'd just have to pick the right ones as Ford did change the strut mounting for the non-GT500 Mustangs somewhere around 2010 or 2011.


Sig pic is showing about -2° camber, tires are still fully street-legal and capable of passing inspection anywhere after 5000+ street miles . . . and over a dozen track days.


Norm

Thanks Norm. Very good info. I wish I could kill the corners, but Western New York is almost completely flat and all the roads are parallel or perpendicular. I really have to go out of my way to find any exciting roads. I was in Pennsylvania last summer and hit some awesome roads and hills. I was in heaven, but that was pretty much the only time I went balls out.

Whether I like it or not, Im pretty much forced to either cruise or drag. Really just want even tire wear and the suspension will primarily be for looks. Guess this is why im debating plates or bolts. Pretty big difference between $30 and $300.

However, I dont want to run into a headache later, a part breaking or a potential accident. Then again, would rather not spend $300 for something that is pretty much useless for my application. Especially when I can put that money toward something else.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[8ballBooker]

for a 1.2" drop you don't even need camber plates. a little negative camber isn't going to kill you. it's toe that wears tires out. i zero out my toe when i get an alignment and with 2 degrees of negative camber i have completely even tire wear at a rate no faster than with 0 camber. i don't know why everybody freaks out over a little negative camber

D, if the toe is corrected upon alignment, does it usually stay good, like an alignment, or is this something I need to periodically check? Im aware of what camber is, but will have to look up toe. Guess I always knew if my car needed an alignment based on feel.

Thanks for the help guys.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[8ballBooker]

Ok, well, I understand toe and alignments now, lol. Toe is what pulls your car to the side. Sounds like a 1"drop will probably not affect tire wear after the alignment, if I'm correct.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[D1984]

D, if the toe is corrected upon alignment, does it usually stay good, like an alignment, or is this something I need to periodically check? Im aware of what camber is, but will have to look up toe. Guess I always knew if my car needed an alignment based on feel.

Thanks for the help guys.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

Toe is something that can be knocked out of whack by large potholes, curbs etc just like anything else in your alignment. However mine has never changed much even though we don't have the best roads around here. Toe is the angle of your tires from side to side. Think of it as looking down on the car, toe out means a V angle where the tires are angled away from each other at the front. Toe in is where they are angled in to each other at the front. Some toe in is usually good and will give your car more stability in a straight line, but less steering response. I used to have a fair amount of toe out and my steering response was insanely fast compared to factory spec, however it ate up my tires so fast and tramlined so much where it wasn't even worth it since I don't track the car (DD and canyons). I have it as close to 0 as possible now and the steering is still awesome. It was a lot slower and more vague when I first zeroed it out, but after getting my Steeda competition control arms and extended ball joints the steering is almost as quick as my old aggressive toe out, and way more precise with almost 0 tramlining.

As for camber bolts, I don't use them. I wouldn't recommend them due to being a failure point on some cars

BTW I am on H&R Super Sports which lower the car 1.7" in the front and 2.4" in the back and it handles amazing with my other suspension components and alignment. I hang with 911s on Skyline Blvd. on a regular basis (very windy road south of SF with low speed and high speed corners)

For what's it's worth, besides the H&R Super Sports and Steeda control arms I have Koni orange non adjustables, BMR rear lower control arms, Whiteline rear lower control arm relocation brackets, and a J&M adjustable panhard bar. Factory sway bars, no strut tower bar.

 

[D1984]

Thanks Norm. Very good info. I wish I could kill the corners, but Western New York is almost completely flat and all the roads are parallel or perpendicular. I really have to go out of my way to find any exciting roads. I was in Pennsylvania last summer and hit some awesome roads and hills. I was in heaven, but that was pretty much the only time I went balls out.

Whether I like it or not, Im pretty much forced to either cruise or drag. Really just want even tire wear and the suspension will primarily be for looks. Guess this is why im debating plates or bolts. Pretty big difference between $30 and $300.

However, I dont want to run into a headache later, a part breaking or a potential accident. Then again, would rather not spend $300 for something that is pretty much useless for my application. Especially when I can put that money toward something else.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

Don't bother with plates or bolts in your situation, just have them get the camber as close to 0 as possible (they probably won't be able to adjust to lower than -1.5) and zero out your toe

 

[8ballBooker]

Don't bother with plates or bolts in your situation, just have them get the camber as close to 0 as possible (they probably won't be able to adjust to lower than -1.5) and zero out your toe

Sweet. Thank you sir, that's what I was thinking.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[Norm Peterson]

Don't bother with plates or bolts in your situation, just have them get the camber as close to 0 as possible (they probably won't be able to adjust to lower than -1.5) and zero out your toe

Don't tell them "as close to zero as possible". Tell them to shoot for something between -0.75° and maybe -1.25°, but make both sides as close to equal as possible, even if they can't get one side down to -1.25°.

I agree on the matter of setting toe just a little 'in'. About 0.05° per side (0.10° total) is usually enough.


Norm

 

[D1984]

Don't tell them "as close to zero as possible". Tell them to shoot for something between -0.75° and maybe -1.25°, but make both sides as close to equal as possible, even if they can't get one side down to -1.25°.

I agree on the matter of setting toe just a little 'in'. About 0.05° per side (0.10° total) is usually enough.


Norm

Well I just tell them as close to 0 as possible because I know there's no way to get it below a certain amount without camber bolts or plates. Of course they're going to make it even on both sides

 

[Norm Peterson]

Of course they're going to make it even on both sides

Call me a skeptic, but I don't completely expect that from anywhere except a shop that specifically does get involved with track or other performance alignments. "In the green, with cross-camber only somewhere within that wide-tolerance spec" is about the best I'll ever assume anybody is otherwise going to get.

I spent about a year working at a new car dealership in a position that got me out in the shop on a regular basis.


Norm

 

[8ballBooker]

Thanks for all this guys, very good stuff. Since you're familiar with my situation. Does it matter if I get a panhard bar support as opposed to just getting the bar?

Thanks,
Eric

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[Norm Peterson]

Certainly as long as you're running street tires there isn't any need to, and even R-compound tires can't develop enough lateral grip to buckle it (plus bend the chassis side bracket enough at the same time) to let that happen. The car can't possibly load a PHB or its brace in their "flimsy directions" (pulling or lifting on it in the middle).

On the other hand, if the brace is showing signs of damage (such as from a right-side curb strike) or corrosion that's beginning to be more than just a little surface rust it can't hurt to replace it with something a little stronger.


Norm

 

[8ballBooker]

Certainly as long as you're running street tires there isn't any need to, and even R-compound tires can't develop enough lateral grip to buckle it (plus bend the chassis side bracket enough at the same time) to let that happen. The car can't possibly load a PHB or its brace in their "flimsy directions" (pulling or lifting on it in the middle).

On the other hand, if the brace is showing signs of damage (such as from a right-side curb strike) or corrosion that's beginning to be more than just a little surface rust it can't hurt to replace it with something a little stronger.


Norm

Sweet. Well, looks like the panhard bar and bump stops (might as well for a 2012 with 50,000 miles and since they are cheap) and Im good.

From what ive picked up, based on my rims and tires listed above, I dont see any issues with rubbing on a conservative drop.

I think ill be good. Thanks a ton fellas. My mind is at ease and you saved me money.

Now I just have to stare at my car sleeping in the garage for another month or two

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[FJohnny]

Any reason you are going with different diameter tires from front to back?

When I put taller tires on in the rear only my stability control started to act up a bit and do the antilock brake pulsing in some corners. I had to disable stability and traction control if I planned to drive hard in corners.

If you are going with 285/35 rear why not go 255/40 front to match them up?
Or 285/30 rear and 255/35 front if that works better with your speedometer.

Good luck and have fun. All the best.

 

[8ballBooker]

Any reason you are going with different diameter tires from front to back?

When I put taller tires on in the rear only my stability control started to act up a bit and do the antilock brake pulsing in some corners. I had to disable stability and traction control if I planned to drive hard in corners.

If you are going with 285/35 rear why not go 255/40 front to match them up?
Or 285/30 rear and 255/35 front if that works better with your speedometer.

Good luck and have fun. All the best.

To be honest, Im still going back and forth on the sizes and what would look best. Seems 285/255 is a very safe bet, but Im not too sure on heights. Awhile back I was using the size calculator online (extremely useful), but didnt directly search out pictures comparing the two. Ive always found tire sizes confusing due to actual height being affected by width.



Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[Cobrakit]

I have a set of new ford camber bolts if your interested. Full size, but you have to slot strut hole. Thats how they work. Also have ford caster bolts. More camber is great for cornering. I usually run 1/8in toe in for street and 1/8in toe out for track.

 

[8ballBooker]

Looks like I had 285-255/35 saved because I can get NT555 G2's end price from AM for $706. Seems like a great deal. Tire looks to be 26.7 rear and 26.0 front. Cant seem to find anything close to that price unless I went with Sumitomo, Nexen, etc... Dont know how I feel about cheap tires. I had Nitto NT555's on my GSR back in the day and I liked them.

Funny they are $199 ea for 285/35, but $250 for 285/30. With a wedding and a honeymoon coming up, I really have to *try* to keep things in an affordable range. And I can divert the savings to other things. She wants a new house, so Im gonna go out on a limb and say its easier to cut some expenses, load up on a ton of other stuff now, because once that ring goes on, its gonna be more difficult, lol.

Been checking the regular sites, tire rack, CJ, LMR and AM. Open to other sites if anyone knows any.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using the svtperformance.com mobile app