Mail-in Ethanol blend testing?

RedVenom48

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Hi all. Does anyone offer test kits for ethanol blends? I'm specifically looking to test the local flex-fuel (E54) swill for anti-knock and compare to standard E85 and E70.

Some stations here in the Phoenix area offer higher Ethanol content flex fuel, but the one on my side of town (West Valley) is unknown.

Thanks!
 

gt347mustang

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Ethanol doesn't really knock like pump gas.

Youd be better off dynoing both fuels in your car to see if there's a beneficial difference with the additional ethanol content.
 

Dusten

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Ethanol doesn't really knock like pump gas.

Youd be better off dynoing both fuels in your car to see if there's a beneficial difference with the additional ethanol content.

That's not entirely correct.
His concern is where the E54 knocks vs the E70 or E85. Since each has an octane rating, it will have an anti knock rating.
 

gt347mustang

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Okay let me explain further. OP what's your setup? Im Assuming you're a v8 running low boost like 99% of the people on this site.

If I'm correct there will be negligible gains from going from e50 to e85 as far as power goes. You will hit MBT well before you start knocking the e50 fuel. This is why I suggested going to a dyno to actually see if there's a difference as thats the true test, not what some paperwork from a lab says.

If your plan was to increase timing until the car knocks on e85 this is 100% the wrong way to tune it.
 

MG0h3

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Isn’t there a graph showing the octane for different E %?

Just test on site and should be able to figure it out


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MG0h3

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I think we misinterpreted what he’s looking for.

OP I haven’t used this particular one but they are quite simple.

Add water to line. Then add E to next line. Shake. Got your answer in about 30seconds.


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Dusten

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I think we misinterpreted what he’s looking for.

OP I haven’t used this particular one but they are quite simple.

Add water to line. Then add E to next line. Shake. Got your answer in about 30seconds.


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I use those every fill up. I think he wants actual knock rating, which isn't something you can just test for at home.
 

RedVenom48

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Isn’t there a graph showing the octane for different E %?

Just test on site and should be able to figure it out


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Ive got a test kit and tested a few stations just for giggles to try it out. One station was around E70, but its a 40 mile round trip. Havent test the station near me yet, its advertised as E54.

Reason this is an issue is that for whatever reason, AZ legislated E85 away. We are allowed "Flex Fuel" and that can legally be anywhere from E54 (min) to E80 (max and no usual). So the legal spread is far looser than 87/91.

That's not entirely correct.
His concern is where the E54 knocks vs the E70 or E85. Since each has an octane rating, it will have an anti knock rating.

...E50 will typically have an octane rating of 101-102. E85 has a rating of about 109.

Correct sir. Also, I dont know if the E blend is on site or if its pre blended offsite then delivered. Preblend E54 with trash 85 octane is a vastly different story than E54 with 91 or even 87. Ill probably end up giving the station manager a call to see what they do. But a lab test should give facts, which is what my engine wants.

Okay let me explain further. OP what's your setup? Im Assuming you're a v8 running low boost like 99% of the people on this site.

If I'm correct there will be negligible gains from going from e50 to e85 as far as power goes. You will hit MBT well before you start knocking the e50 fuel. This is why I suggested going to a dyno to actually see if there's a difference as thats the true test, not what some paperwork from a lab says.

If your plan was to increase timing until the car knocks on e85 this is 100% the wrong way to tune it.
Not even close to my plans. I want to increase the static compression ratio when I pull my engine next year from 8.5:1 to 10:1, and at a later date add a TVS (cause Im not an SVTP baller unfortunately). Been waiting for Eaton to release a 3.0L+ TVS for some time and it looks like 2021 will be the year. I do not want to have to run 100 octane as a min fuel because Im not an SVTP baller. Im one of the poors so if I can run an E blend and not spend $140 a tank just to enjoy my car Ill invest in a fuel system now to do it.

My concern as noted above is that I dont know what the gasoline rating is that its cut with. I freely admit that I dont know if the gas rating effects the Ethanol's rating but one would assume trash base gas COULD.

So taking random samples and having them tested would put my mind at ease in investing in expensive injectors and a return system now than having to rely on pump 100 or even barrels of race fuel.

Im totally on board with the potential of ethanol and totally jealous of guys that can just go pump E85 gold and not really think about it.

If you have a link that explains how different ethanol blends are rated and how the gasoline component effects overall knock rating, Id love to read it.

Lol an actual picture of me reacting to it:
tenor.gif
 
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gt347mustang

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If you have a link that explains how different ethanol blends are rated and how the gasoline component effects overall knock rating, Id love to read it

I dont have a single link or anything that would tell you everything you need to know but i suggest reading some papers on here:

spark-ignition engines limit: Topics by WorldWideScience.org

There are several topics that describe the effects of ethanol blends in different types of spark ignition engines, some even give mon/ron ratings.

My suggestion is also based on reviewing thousands of datalogs, hundreds of dyno runs and reading/listening to others with more knowledge than myself on this topic.

My suggestion still stands. Dyno tune your vehicle on the e5x pump fuel and dyno it again on the e8x fuel. My guess is the car will take the same amount of timing and the difference in power will be a result of the added volume and slighter better cooling with the extra ethanol. I expect 3% or less gains in power if using the same a/f ratio and timing.

I realize you're fixated on the fact that the base fuel of the e5x fuel is probably very low octane but in your scenario it doesn't really matter because the ethanol will bring the anti-knock properties past the point where you need it. It will hit MBT before its knock limited.

On a max effort setup I agree that the more ethanol the better, but you're at a point where you dont even have a supercharger, so i think you're getting ahead of yourself trying to determine if your e5x fuel is 95 octane or 97 octane.
 

SecondhandSnake

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So basically you're concerned about octane? Doing some theoretical math just to set your bounds-

Assume that they blend anywhere from 85 to 91 octane. (Most of the pumps here state the gasoline used is 85 for blends, but that may vary by location) Ethanol has a blended octane value (BOV) that's going to vary based on what it's blended with (based on this link here https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ESOTA_RFA_Cooper_Octane.pdf). All calculations are in AKI [(R+M)/2 method, pump standard in the US).

E54 w/85 blend- (0.54 x 119) + (0.46 x 85) = 64.26+39.1=103.36
E54 w/91 blend- (0.54 x 112) + (0.46 x 91) = 60.48+41.86=102.34
E85 w/85 blend- (0.85 x 119) + (0.15 x 85) = 101.15+12.75=113.9
E85 w/91 blend- (0.85 x 112) + (0.15 x 91) = 95.2+13.65=108.85

Basically you're looking at a loss of anywhere from 5-11 points.

As for what you might need to do with timing that's another discussion altogether. I'm planning to do a linear blend between the gasoline and E85 values, but I'm sure that's probably on the conservative side.
 

RedVenom48

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I dont have a single link or anything that would tell you everything you need to know but i suggest reading some papers on here:

spark-ignition engines limit: Topics by WorldWideScience.org

There are several topics that describe the effects of ethanol blends in different types of spark ignition engines, some even give mon/ron ratings.

My suggestion is also based on reviewing thousands of datalogs, hundreds of dyno runs and reading/listening to others with more knowledge than myself on this topic.

My suggestion still stands. Dyno tune your vehicle on the e5x pump fuel and dyno it again on the e8x fuel. My guess is the car will take the same amount of timing and the difference in power will be a result of the added volume and slighter better cooling with the extra ethanol. I expect 3% or less gains in power if using the same a/f ratio and timing.

I realize you're fixated on the fact that the base fuel of the e5x fuel is probably very low octane but in your scenario it doesn't really matter because the ethanol will bring the anti-knock properties past the point where you need it. It will hit MBT before its knock limited.

On a max effort setup I agree that the more ethanol the better, but you're at a point where you dont even have a supercharger, so i think you're getting ahead of yourself trying to determine if your e5x fuel is 95 octane or 97 octane.
Ill definitely give that a read. I also want to be clear that Im not trying to come off as a prick or anything. Definitely learning a lot about Ethanol! One thing I know is that the factory supercharger on my car is called the Heaton by most of the tuners out there because of how hot the discharge air is. Im planning the fuel system before a new blower. Im interested to see how much it will help with timing compared even to 100 race fuel.

Im also starting understand that the MIX of E54 (and any ethanol blend) makes the base gasoline's stand alone rating irrelevant.

So basically you're concerned about octane? Doing some theoretical math just to set your bounds-

Assume that they blend anywhere from 85 to 91 octane. (Most of the pumps here state the gasoline used is 85 for blends, but that may vary by location) Ethanol has a blended octane value (BOV) that's going to vary based on what it's blended with (based on this link here https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ESOTA_RFA_Cooper_Octane.pdf). All calculations are in AKI [(R+M)/2 method, pump standard in the US).

E54 w/85 blend- (0.54 x 119) + (0.46 x 85) = 64.26+39.1=103.36
E54 w/91 blend- (0.54 x 112) + (0.46 x 91) = 60.48+41.86=102.34
E85 w/85 blend- (0.85 x 119) + (0.15 x 85) = 101.15+12.75=113.9
E85 w/91 blend- (0.85 x 112) + (0.15 x 91) = 95.2+13.65=108.85

Basically you're looking at a loss of anywhere from 5-11 points.

As for what you might need to do with timing that's another discussion altogether. I'm planning to do a linear blend between the gasoline and E85 values, but I'm sure that's probably on the conservative side.

Your figures are what Ive been calculating today with this calculator: Calculate Ethanol % of Mixture

Ive been assuming worst case scenario its indicating that 100 % Ethanol (at 112 octane for this calculation) and a base Gasoline rating of 85 mixed to 54% is coming out to about 100 octane. Im sure there is a few point difference in the real world.

Just for giggles, I recalculated with 91 as the base gasoline. Simulating adding Boostane Professional to the gasoline component, its calculating out to be 103 Octane.

So if this anywhere even remotely correct, that indicates the base mixing gasoline in the E54 isnt detrimental in theoretical rating. This was my biggest fear regarding E54, compared to E85. I know you guys have been saying that since I started this thread but Im one of those idiots where "I have to do it myself to understand it". E85 when run through this calculator is indicating 109 octane.

The theoretical 9 full octane points is something, to be sure. However seeing these calculations real time and that even worst case scenario E54 is 100 octane makes me MUCH more at ease about not having full power E85.
 

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