Making a Murderer - Netflix Series

[ElscottHavoc]

The thing is, even if the bottom line is that he's guilty and deserving of being behind bars, I think the key take away of the documentary is that the case was handled improperly and very suspiciously on the part of the courts and law enforcment - not just little mistakes either like people forgetting to sign in to the crime scene log, but blatant mishandling and tampering of evidence, questionable use of the term "beyond a scientific reasonable doubt" when claiming it was scientifically provable that all 6 blood samples in the RAV4 didn't contain EDTA when only 3 we're actually tested, etc.

If Avery and Dassey are guilty (and I'm actually inclined to believe they are) then I'm certainly glad they're not out in society. That said, looking beyond the verdict, even if it was a result information outside I the documentary, I think what the documentary did show that can't be offset by outside information is some obvious corruption and behind the scenes hand shaking that should never occur in the justice system that has no place in court, politics, or law enforcement.

Again, either way if Avery and Dassey ought to be behind bars, then I'm glad, but looking passed that there were still so many things that made me think "hmm"...

 

[hoamskilet]

The thing is, even if the bottom line is that he's guilty and deserving of being behind bars, I think the key take away of the documentary is that the case was handled improperly and very suspiciously on the part of the courts and law enforcment - not just little mistakes either like people forgetting to sign in to the crime scene log, but blatant mishandling and tampering of evidence, questionable use of the term "beyond a scientific reasonable doubt" when claiming it was scientifically provable that all 6 blood samples in the RAV4 didn't contain EDTA when only 3 we're actually tested, etc.

If Avery and Dassey are guilty (and I'm actually inclined to believe they are) then I'm certainly glad they're not out in society. That said, looking beyond the verdict, even if it was a result information outside I the documentary, I think what the documentary did show that can't be offset by outside information is some obvious corruption and behind the scenes hand shaking that should never occur in the justice system that has no place in court, politics, or law enforcement.

Again, either way if Avery and Dassey ought to be behind bars, then I'm glad, but looking passed that there were still so many things that made me think "hmm"...

Agreed. I don't claim he's innocent, but I feel like it should have been at least a mistrial. There's so many things that don't add up and you simply cannot ignore the county's involvement, especially with the collection of crucial evidence when they shouldn't have been there in the first place

 

[hoamskilet]

I think it was posted earlier in here, but I find this rather disturbing as well:

http://www.today.com/popculture/mak...ur-goal-was-question-us-justice-system-t65161

 

[kirks5oh]

Such a solid foundation! Tell people they are gullible because a lot of information was excluded from the documentary (that you admit to not viewing) but not a peep about what information was left out.

I'm sold! :lol:

I stated my opinion based on everything I know from people who know first hand, and reading I have done. I'm not forming a foundation for any argument, or trying to sell you jack shit. I'm not trying to convince you of anything--get that through your head. I stated an opinion. If you disagree, fine. Links have been provided to much of the missing info.

 

[venom_inc]

I'm only a few episodes in but I have read spoilers.

Avery had time to destroy the RAV 4, incinerate her body, and clean up after the mess. This idiot failed to do the easy stuff but somehow cleaned up all the blood from the kill like he was Dexter? I don't buy it. How do you leave zero evidence of a murder but leave a blood smear in the victims not destroyed car, leave the victims car key on your floor, and a bullet laying around? Not to mention burning her in a fire pit instead of his incinerator.

He's stupid, but not that stupid.

 

[1997Slobrah]

Girl I'm seeing was telling me she thinks that his brother/the kids killed her out in the woods which is why she would have been in the rav4. They framed Steve because they wanted to take over his business. they got greedy/jealous.. especially on top of the money he would have gotten from the State for false imprisonment. But they didn't use the incinerator and used the burn barrel so they could plant the bones in the pit. Since their house was only like 200 ft from Steve's house it made it easy for them to put stuff everywhere when the cops weren't there.

She probably got it from somewhere because she isn't that smart to think of this but I'm too lazy to look.

Edit: found it

http://www.thewrap.com/making-a-mur...eves-brothers-may-have-killed-teresa-halbach/

Probably not the same one but you get the point if i didnt explain it very well.

 

[black4vcobra]

Excellent article here, it pretty much sums up my stance on the matter that regardless of whether or not Avery did it, the conviction should not be considered valid and at the very least he deserves a retrial far away from Manitowoc County - http://flavorwire.com/554591/it-doesnt-matter-whether-steven-avery-did-it

Just as Netflix’s Making a Murderer has solidified the trend of massively popular, serialized true crime, it’s also proven that the backlash to said stories is inevitable. With Serial, there were The Intercept’s interviews with witness Jay Wilds and prosecutor Kevin Urick; with The Jinx, there were concerns over filmmaker Andrew Jarecki’s presentation of the Durst case’s timeline. And now, almost three weeks after their ten-part documentary’s release, Making a Murderer co-creators Moira Demos and Laura Ricciardi find themselves at the center of a now-familiar debate.

Following the initial outpouring of outrage in reviews and on social media, including multiple popular, if misguided, petitions asking President Obama to pardon exonerated rapist turned convicted murderer Steven Avery and his nephew Brendan Dassey, the dissenters to Demos and Ricciardi’s basic narrative — that Avery, a man at both a social and economic disadvantage in the small, tightly knit community of Manitowoc County, was framed by the Sheriff’s Department, then faced an unfair trial — have begun to emerge.

Predictably, prosecutor Ken Kratz, who declined to speak to Demos and Ricciardi for the series, has come forward to present his side of the story. In a New York Times article published yesterday, Kratz claims “the jury in Mr. Avery’s trial considered evidence either left out or glossed over by the filmmakers,” including “DNA from Mr. Avery’s sweat found on a latch under the hood of Ms. Halbach’s Toyota RAV4” and “a bullet with Ms. Halbach’s DNA on it found in Mr. Avery’s garage [that] was matched to a rifle that hung over Mr. Avery’s bed.” Kratz does concede, however, that allowing the Sheriff’s Department Avery was suing at the time to participate in the investigation of photographer Teresa Halbach’s murder was a mistake, as was making a public spectacle of Dassey’s confession only to not use Dassey as a witness for the prosecution, effectively poisoning the jury pool without giving Avery’s defense a chance to demonstrate the confession’s questionable validity in the courtroom.

Meanwhile, Dustin Rowles of Pajiba has compiled a list of evidence against Avery and Dassey that was excluded from Making a Murderer. This includes details of Avery’s prior history with Halbach, Avery’s purchase of cuffs and leg irons of the kind Dassey describes in his confession in the weeks prior to Halbach’s disappearance, and the discovery of Halbach’s camera and PalmPilot in Avery’s burn barrel. (That last detail is courtesy of Angenette Levy, the local reporter whose obvious skepticism made her a popular avatar for scandalized viewers over the course of the series.)

The Making a Murderer subreddit, of course, is the perfect place to watch the resulting “Steven Avery did it after all!”/ “No he didn’t!” opinion wars to play out in real time. And then there’s the anecdotal, but somehow more troubling, example of my own social networks, where I’ve seen friends and acquaintances use damning facts like Avery’s animal cruelty as a teenager to conclude he killed Teresa Halbach after all.

Here’s the problem: It doesn’t matter if Steven Avery is actually guilty — that has nothing to do with Demos and Ricciardi’s larger points about the criminal justice system, or even the more immediate question of whether Steven Avery should currently be serving life in prison.

As Avery’s defense lawyers, the unofficial heroes of Making a Murderer, point out during the trial, the prosecution should always be “swimming upstream,” thanks to the presumption of innocence all defendants theoretically enjoy. It was on the Sheriff’s Department and the District Attorney’s office to prove Avery’s guilt, and if they failed to do so — or, far worse, did so through illegal and unethical means — then they haven’t earned a conviction.

Throughout Making a Murderer, both Avery’s defense and the series itself present a convincing argument for significant misconduct during the investigation of Halbach’s murder. Members of the Sheriff’s Department, who weren’t supposed to be handling the case in the first place, were apparently allowed unsupervised access to the Avery property. Halbach’s vehicle may have been in Sergeant Andrew Colburn’s custody days before it was supposedly discovered. A previously obtained sample of Avery’s blood showed signs of tampering. A key to Halbach’s car found in plain view, though not during several previous searches, contained DNA from Avery but none from Halbach, the car’s longtime owner. And Dassey’s confession may well have been coerced out of a mentally incapacitated minor.

If any falsified evidence was used to push the jury over the threshold of reasonable doubt, then the resulting conviction was wrongfully obtained. That’s true whether or not other evidence holds up. It’s even true whether or not Avery actually committed the crime for which he stood trial.

As a casual viewer, it should be obvious that I’m no more qualified to declare Avery’s innocence, or even Manitowoc County’s wrongdoing, than others are to declare his guilt. But the question of whether Avery murdered Teresa Halbach seems to fundamentally miss the point of a tremendous and tragic work of documentary filmmaking. The terrifying possibility Making a Murderer presents is not that an innocent man is in jail, though that may well be the case. It’s that a man is in jail because a system with power over him decided he should be. And once that decision was made, there was nothing Avery or his family could do.
Without question, what happened to Teresa Halbach was horrifying. Without question, Halbach and her family deserve justice. But the entire premise behind the presumption of innocence is that, on balance, a society that punishes someone without sufficient proof is worse than a society that lets a murderer, let alone an innocent man, go free. So while the idea of a killer on the loose is scary, the idea of a system that can rob people of their freedom whenever and wherever it wants — that cases like these don’t just happen in Manitowoc County, and don’t just happen to Steven Avery — is scarier still. That’s what we ought to be obsessing over.

 

[Outlaw99]

my 2 cents.

first, and most important, that ****ing canadian accent...i swear if i hear "yoos guys" one more time im going to throw my remote through the tv. and that opening music is way creepy.


I am ex LEO. spent 11 years on the force. 8 months in the jail. the rest was divided up doing patrol, baliff and civil process. I spent 7 years on swat, my last command was assistant tactical commander, and i spent 6 years on the countys search and rescue, which 99% of the time, there was no rescue. only search, which was mostly evidentiary collection and preservation. mostly searches for missing people, which ended on finding a body. I have been state certified in interrogation tactics from salemburg nc. all that being said, here is my official take on the whole series.


It is very clear, the sheriff department had it out for avery, going back years. the deputy who originally arrested him back in 85, disregarded proceedures, as well as the whole department. they assumed guilt before any type of investigation. 18 years and 36 million dollars later....thats a pretty big motive for retribution if you ask me. he made the deputy, who is now sheriff look like a complete idiot, and a few detectives. I dont believe the sheriff ever let it go.

fast forward to the murder. during the interviews with avery, i did not see any triggers in his body language that would indicate to me any type of deception. he showed the palm of his hands several times, which can mean he is revealing himself in an honest way, or atleast he believes he is being honest. still, this doesnt mean he couldnt have done it. the interviews that the investigators conducted with avery are beyond my scope of understanding. they did everything in the book that you are instructed to NEVER do. you do not ever lead a suspect like they did in a confession. you especially dont do it while being video tapped. same with his 16 year old nephew. holy jesus how the feds do not nail that department on that alone is mind boggeling.

it is very unusual for a department to go out that many times to conduct searches. it borders on constitutionally offensive. i feel the key was definitely planted. 100% without a doubt. you dont miss something like that as many times as you had been out there before to search. It could have been detective lenk....who had a history of tampering with evidence before. but, it could have also been the older nephew, who lived next door who could have went over there at night to plant the key and shell casings.

i am not convinced that the test the FBI came up with in a few weeks to test for vile blood in accurate. I believe future technology will be available to disprove the FBI test. that just seems very odd to me. I believe the vile of old blood was definitely tampered with. ray charles could see that it has been opened and a needle injected into it. who had access to it? detective lenk.

you can not clean up blood. you might be able to mop it up. but it will always be there. she was not killed in the garage.

the purpose of a forensic scientist is to establish facts. not guilt. the detective that told her he needed her DNA in the house or garage....is so unethical that both her license to practice forensic science, and his ability to work in law enforcement should be revoked without question. that was a witch hunt.

no DNA on the bed. or in his trailer anywhere. the key was wiped clean? that speaks volumes. its easy to put someones dna on anything. grab a toothbrush, comb or anything and rub it. boom DNA.

I believe we have 2 things going on here.

1, i believe that she got in her car to leave, and passed by the older nephew who lived next door, who probably stopped her to have a conversation with her. maybe he told her he had another car to list. i believe he got in the car with her and they drove to the back of the salvage yard, where he possibly raped and killed her. that is why the blood was in the back oh the car. he hid the car back there knowing it would eventually be found.

the body was not burned in the fire pit. they found 3 locations with bones. i believe the body was burned in the back of the salvage yard in a burn barrel...and the remains were then placed in averys fire pit.

so ask yourself, who had the opportunity to do all of this? the older nephew. he had complete access to the property all hours of the night.

how come lie detectors were not used on anyone?

i also believe, the sheriff department wanted to make sure they nailed this guy this time....so, they may have manipulated the evidence to make sure it pointed to avery, all the while not even looking at the older nephew who is most likely the killer. they didnt want avery getting away this time and making them look like fools. had they just done their job, they could have arrested and charged the correct killer.

ill probably think of more and edit this later.

 

[low03tb]

I'm only a few episodes in but I have read spoilers.

Avery had time to destroy the RAV 4, incinerate her body, and clean up after the mess. This idiot failed to do the easy stuff but somehow cleaned up all the blood from the kill like he was Dexter? I don't buy it. How do you leave zero evidence of a murder but leave a blood smear in the victims not destroyed car, leave the victims car key on your floor, and a bullet laying around? Not to mention burning her in a fire pit instead of his incinerator.

He's stupid, but not that stupid.

Girl I'm seeing was telling me she thinks that his brother/the kids killed her out in the woods which is why she would have been in the rav4. They framed Steve because they wanted to take over his business. they got greedy/jealous.. especially on top of the money he would have gotten from the State for false imprisonment. But they didn't use the incinerator and used the burn barrel so they could plant the bones in the pit. Since their house was only like 200 ft from Steve's house it made it easy for them to put stuff everywhere when the cops weren't there.

She probably got it from somewhere because she isn't that smart to think of this but I'm too lazy to look.

Edit: found it

http://www.thewrap.com/making-a-mur...eves-brothers-may-have-killed-teresa-halbach/

Probably not the same one but you get the point if i didnt explain it very well.

Exactly. Think about it......why would there be blood, etc in the Rav4? She would have gotten out, taken pictures, went to his trailer, etc. If she was raped and murdered in the house then why the hell would they place her BACK into the Rav4? Why would they let her get all the way back to her Rav4 and THEN decide to beat her and take her inside/to the garage/wherever?? It makes ZERO sense.


What does make sense is that she was IN her Rav4, meaning she was likely already gone or leaving the property. The bus driver saw her there so it wasn't before she got there. She left and was likely followed by someone.

 

[1997Slobrah]

Everything Outlaw said I can agree with. I 100% believe Steven is innocent. If he is just now coming out to say that Steven thinks the older nephew or his brothers did it, then I don't think he even knew about anyone doing anything. Which, I'm sure, he would have brought up in the beginning. Obviously. If he spends the rest of his life in prison, especially without another trial... that is just plain ****ed up, man.

 

[Sinister04L]

The Wisconsin court system is a joke. Nevermind Steven Avery, that's bad enough in itself, look at Brendan's case. The only evidence they have is a coerced confession made without the presence of his lawyer. A lawyer, mind you, that was not only not trying to defend him, but was actively trying to (and successful) get him to admit guilt. On the stand, under oath, his investigator admitted to working with the DA's office to gather evidence against Steven and use Brendan to solidify their case against Steven. That is absolutely unconscionable. It's a mockery of the justice system that he isn't retried.

 

[madscotsman]

Exactly. Think about it......why would there be blood, etc in the Rav4? She would have gotten out, taken pictures, went to his trailer, etc. If she was raped and murdered in the house then why the hell would they place her BACK into the Rav4? Why would they let her get all the way back to her Rav4 and THEN decide to beat her and take her inside/to the garage/wherever?? It makes ZERO sense.

Branden said In one of his many story versions that when he went to Steven's house for the bonfire, the RAV4 was backed into the garage and he helped Steven lift her body into the back if the RAV4 because Steven planned to sink the car/body in a lake, but Steven changed his mind and decided to use the fire pit bonfire he had started when everyone else that was supposed to come over for the bonfire cancelled on them. He said they took her back out of the RAV4 and carried her to the bonfire on a car creeper. WHO KNOWS at this point LOL...

 

[low03tb]

If she either had her throat cut OR was shot by a .22 from point blank..you'd think there would be A LOT of blood. That seemed like just little smudges here and there ya know. They couldn't have had her wrapped up or something b/c there was hair/blood found in a few spots.

I'm just amazed that they can convict Avery on something from Dassey's confession, while it changed 4-5 times. They can't prove rape, but because a kid that doesn't know what inconsistent means, changed his story 4-5 times, etc etc says it happened in one of his stories...rape charge. WTF. You'd think they'd find some sort of dna evidence, but nothing.

 

[phillycobra99]

It was a great documentary I binged watched in two days. Did anyone see the spoof of it done by Seth Meyers? It's hilarious.

 

[SolarYellow]

I stated my opinion based on everything I know from people who know first hand, and reading I have done. I'm not forming a foundation for any argument, or trying to sell you jack shit. I'm not trying to convince you of anything--get that through your head. I stated an opinion. If you disagree, fine. Links have been provided to much of the missing info.

You are just trying to tell everyone, believing he was not found GBARD, they are gullible yet won't defend such a position. I am interested in hearing why you think everyone is gullible. In the time it took to type multiple responses in this discussion, you could have easily provided a few pieces of info learned from those who know first hand.

my 2 cents.

first, and most important, that ****ing canadian accent...i swear if i hear "yoos guys" one more time im going to throw my remote through the tv. and that opening music is way creepy.

Is it Canadian or a combination of Canuck & Pollack? Either way, the accent is just a bit less annoying than a Boston accent as well as a NYC Italian accent.

Exactly. Think about it......why would there be blood, etc in the Rav4? She would have gotten out, taken pictures, went to his trailer, etc. If she was raped and murdered in the house then why the hell would they place her BACK into the Rav4? Why would they let her get all the way back to her Rav4 and THEN decide to beat her and take her inside/to the garage/wherever?? It makes ZERO sense.


What does make sense is that she was IN her Rav4, meaning she was likely already gone or leaving the property. The bus driver saw her there so it wasn't before she got there. She left and was likely followed by someone.

The simplest reason I can think of is that whomever killed her drove (gloveless) the RAV4 to its hiding spot and had a very small amount on their hand/finger. Then again, knowing how to handle all of the more important matters yet something o fthis nature was over-looked? Who the hell would kill someone then get in their car and drive it?

 

[1997Slobrah]

Who the hell would kill someone then get in their car and drive it?

Probably every single person in that family... they're (almost) all comatose and half retarded.

 

[SolarYellow]

More like 75% retarded but I would think a scrap yard or parts yard with at least 1k cars (or so it looked) would have some kind of front end loader or whatever it is to move the vehicles.

The fact of these people sounding so god damned stupid is what makes me question how he found the intelligence to take good care with some of the tough matters yet completely screwed up with the simple things like blood in a car, the car on your property, etc..,

 

[Brutal Metal]

So now Steven says he thinks his brothers did it? Did he see THEM cooking the body? Also how could the prosecution prove the girl was raped,throat sliced and shot in the head with a small box of burnt bones as evidence? THEN when Dassey was coerced into saying a gun was used to shoot her shells mysteriously turn up? Also saying the kids IQ was 73 was being Generous..

 

[low03tb]

The whole Bobby Dassey (Brendan's brother) and Scott Tadych (Brendan's stepfather) issue is a little weird. Both have MUCH more violent crime pasts then Steven, both were each other's alibi's (..sketch), both lied on the stand and were caught, Scott had a .22 rifle and was trying to sell it, etc. Both were on the property at the time and Bobby had scratches on his back that 'looked about a week old' when interviewed after a week of her being missing. Jealous? Trying to frame him for the money? Were they paid off so the county wouldn't have to pay?

 

[97ReoCobra]

I lived in Sheboygan, WI for 60 years. I've been to Avery's junk yard a dozen or so years ago. Watched the entire show, read this entire thread and visited the links posted. I have just two thoughts. 1, It is profoundly sad that a young women simply performing her job one day, had to endure what she must have and ends up a box of charred bone fragments. 2, With very few exceptions everyone that has watched that show smells a monumental sized pile of dung. Is there really that much we are not privy to that the jury heard/saw that led them to reach guilty verdicts. 2b, I don't believe a word the excused juror says. To me he seems like nothing more than a limelight leach. He'll say anything that will keep a camera pointed at him.