McLeod RXT owners, Pedal heigh/release point questions

[DHGTerminator]

Interesting stuff in this thread, and a great in depth explanation from Kevin!:rockon::beer04sleeper).

I am probably going to buy one of these RTXs as soon as my stocker decides to give up.
I am pretty certain that along with the Fore adjuster, new steel TOB sleeve, new FRPP TOB, 26 spline input shaft , I am also going to install the LDC freeplay mod.

LDC Chicago Clutch Freeplay Correction Kit [LDC-FREEPLAY] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

I was wondering if any of you guys were running this yet?

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/driveline-216/578512-what-ldc-freeplay-mod-clutch.html

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/driveline-216/670705-ldc-free-play-mod.html

I love the clutch Jimmy, it grabs great even in the break in period. Kevin told me not to run the freeplay mid because it keeps the TOB from having the minor amount of pre-load that the factory pawl/quad maintains.

 

[04sleeper]

I love the clutch Jimmy, it grabs great even in the break in period. Kevin told me not to run the freeplay mod because it keeps the TOB from having the minor amount of pre-load that the factory pawl/quad maintains.

Correct.

Ford Throw Out Bearings are constant velocity units. They are made to always spin. The Freeplay Mod is made to hold the throw out bearing "Away" from the pressure plate so the throw out bearing does not contact it. This creates more harm than good. Instead of the throw out bearing already spinning at the same RPM as the engine, it slows down and stops. Now when you go to shift the clutch, say @ 6500 RPM. The bearing now has to go from 0 RPM to 6500 RPM instantly! The now "Stopped" bearing contacts the already "Spinning" pressure plate and creats extra wear and heat on the face of the throw out bearing. This will actually make your throw out bearing wear out faster.

Also the spring on the free play mod creates more tension on the clutch making it stiffer to push in.

Hope this helps explain it a little better.

 

[DHGTerminator]

Correct.

Ford Throw Out Bearings are constant velocity units. They are made to always spin. The Freeplay Mod is made to hold the throw out bearing "Away" from the pressure plate so the throw out bearing does not contact it. This creates more harm than good. Instead of the throw out bearing already spinning at the same RPM as the engine, it slows down and stops. Now when you go to shift the clutch, say @ 6500 RPM. The bearing now has to go from 0 RPM to 6500 RPM instantly! The now "Stopped" bearing contacts the already "Spinning" pressure plate and creats extra wear and heat on the face of the throw out bearing. This will actually make your throw out bearing wear out faster.

Also the spring on the free play mod creates more tension on the clutch making it stiffer to push in.

Hope this helps explain it a little better.

PERFECT explanation man, that's what I've been looking for! :beer:

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Good to know!

I can now scratch that off the list in good conscience.:beer:

 

[ScottsdaleSnake]

Interesting stuff in this thread, and a great in depth explanation from Kevin!:rockon::beer04sleeper).

I am probably going to buy one of these RTXs as soon as my stocker decides to give up.
I am pretty certain that along with the Fore adjuster, new steel TOB sleeve, new FRPP TOB, 26 spline input shaft , I am also going to install the LDC freeplay mod.

LDC Chicago Clutch Freeplay Correction Kit [LDC-FREEPLAY] : Lethal Performance, Performance parts for Ford Mustangs

I was wondering if any of you guys were running this yet?


My tuner added the LDC years ago -I had no idea what the heck he meant by LDC mod though!- when I had my old Centerforce installed. As such, I've pretty much been living with it since 2005...longer than living without it since getting the car in 2003, so I can't honestly describe the difference in pedal feel it makes up top since I just don't remember. But, if you're planning on a McLeod TD and worried that the LDC would stiffen the pedal feel...don't worry about that whatsoever. As you know, I just installed a RST and even with the LDC, the pedal is light as a feather. I remember reading in a previous thread you mentioned your leg hurts from your heavy clutch, or something to that extent. I just didn't want you to be discouraged from the LDC thinking that it would make the McLeod's light pedal feel heavy. My old TOB lasted over 30K+ miles with the LDC, but maybe the firewall adjuster -installed at the same time as the LDC- helped keep preload on it and allowed it to function properly as 04Sleeper described...:shrug:

 

[Double-D]

Correct.

Ford Throw Out Bearings are constant velocity units. They are made to always spin. The Freeplay Mod is made to hold the throw out bearing "Away" from the pressure plate so the throw out bearing does not contact it. This creates more harm than good. Instead of the throw out bearing already spinning at the same RPM as the engine, it slows down and stops. Now when you go to shift the clutch, say @ 6500 RPM. The bearing now has to go from 0 RPM to 6500 RPM instantly! The now "Stopped" bearing contacts the already "Spinning" pressure plate and creats extra wear and heat on the face of the throw out bearing. This will actually make your throw out bearing wear out faster.

Also the spring on the free play mod creates more tension on the clutch making it stiffer to push in.

Hope this helps explain it a little better.

Thanks for the post Kevin, I will leave my yet uninstalled free play kit uninstalled during next clutch job (coming up shortly). Appreciate the info.

 

[ScottsdaleSnake]

Correct.

Ford Throw Out Bearings are constant velocity units. They are made to always spin. The Freeplay Mod is made to hold the throw out bearing "Away" from the pressure plate so the throw out bearing does not contact it. This creates more harm than good. Instead of the throw out bearing already spinning at the same RPM as the engine, it slows down and stops. Now when you go to shift the clutch, say @ 6500 RPM. The bearing now has to go from 0 RPM to 6500 RPM instantly! The now "Stopped" bearing contacts the already "Spinning" pressure plate and creats extra wear and heat on the face of the throw out bearing. This will actually make your throw out bearing wear out faster.

Also the spring on the free play mod creates more tension on the clutch making it stiffer to push in.

Hope this helps explain it a little better.

Your explanation is awesome! I was wondering though, should the freeplay mod be omitted with someone who has an aftermarket quadrant & firewall adjuster too, or only if you are running the stock plastic quadrant/adjuster? I may have read this thread incorrectly, but it seems like you're recommending to not install the freeplay mod only if you're running a stock quadrant. Is that correct?

I have an aftermarket quadrant & firewall adjuster as well as the LDC mod along with a new RST...it seems during the break-in period my engagement point has gotten much higher...it engages almost at the very top/just as my foot comes off the clutch - not a very comfortable position to have to hold/raise the clutch to everytime I go from a start! What do you recommend is the best way to lower the engagement point? The MM clutch lowering kit? Would removing the LDC mod lower the engagement point without needing the MM clutch kit - my logic is that by removing the spring the fork will move back and lower the engagement point? I hope that makes sense. Also, once and for all, is it correct to say the firewall adjuster is for nothing but to tighten/add preload to the cable/TOB, and NOT to lower/raise the engagement point?? It seems the more I read about how to adjust clutches, the more confused I get! Feeling a bit stupid here....thanks in advance for all your help.

 

[DHGTerminator]

Your explanation is awesome! I was wondering though, should the freeplay mod be omitted with someone who has an aftermarket quadrant & firewall adjuster too, or only if you are running the stock plastic quadrant/adjuster? I may have read this thread incorrectly, but it seems like you're recommending to not install the freeplay mod only if you're running a stock quadrant. Is that correct?

I have an aftermarket quadrant & firewall adjuster as well as the LDC mod along with a new RST...it seems during the break-in period my engagement point has gotten much higher...it engages almost at the very top/just as my foot comes off the clutch - not a very comfortable position to have to hold/raise the clutch to everytime I go from a start! What do you recommend is the best way to lower the engagement point? The MM clutch lowering kit? Would removing the LDC mod lower the engagement point without needing the MM clutch kit - my logic is that by removing the spring the fork will move back and lower the engagement point? I hope that makes sense. Also, once and for all, is it correct to say the firewall adjuster is for nothing but to tighten/add preload to the cable/TOB, and NOT to lower/raise the engagement point?? It seems the more I read about how to adjust clutches, the more confused I get! Feeling a bit stupid here....thanks in advance for all your help.

Incorrect. He's saying you should avoid running the free-play mod nomatter the case, because if you do not, your TOB will not have pre-load, and thus, will not spin the way that it is supposed to, then when you shift at higher rpms, your TOB can go out-prematurely from the shock of going from 0 RPM's to 6500 RPM's instantly. If you want to adjust the pedal there are 2 ways to do so. 1 is by going with an adjustable pivot ball, and the other is by using the MM clutch pedal lowering kit. The link I posted in the initial post is what i'm going to try, I have all parts on order right now, so I will let you know here in a couple weeks how well it worked. With any luck the clutch pedal will be lowered to the brake pedal height (great for driving at the track!) and the engagement point will be somewhere around there, which will be easy to get used to, as it will feel somewhat close to stock. Hope this clears things up for you a little! :beer:

 

[ScottsdaleSnake]

Incorrect. He's saying you should avoid running the free-play mod nomatter the case, because if you do not, your TOB will not have pre-load, and thus, will not spin the way that it is supposed to, then when you shift at higher rpms, your TOB can go out-prematurely from the shock of going from 0 RPM's to 6500 RPM's instantly. If you want to adjust the pedal there are 2 ways to do so. 1 is by going with an adjustable pivot ball, and the other is by using the MM clutch pedal lowering kit. The link I posted in the initial post is what i'm going to try, I have all parts on order right now, so I will let you know here in a couple weeks how well it worked. With any luck the clutch pedal will be lowered to the brake pedal height (great for driving at the track!) and the engagement point will be somewhere around there, which will be easy to get used to, as it will feel somewhat close to stock. Hope this clears things up for you a little! :beer:

Thanks! Yes, it does clear things up. Since I just had a clutch install and reused the stock pivot ball, I think the best bet is to get the MM kit you mentioned. Hopefully, that will solve everything as that would be a pretty easy fix for the high RST/RXT grabbing point. Please post your driving impressions with the MM kit installed when you get it...thanks again, man. :burnout:

 

[DHGTerminator]

Thanks! Yes, it does clear things up. Since I just had a clutch install and reused the stock pivot ball, I think the best bet is to get the MM kit you mentioned. Hopefully, that will solve everything as that would be a pretty easy fix for the high RST/RXT grabbing point. Please post your driving impressions with the MM kit installed when you get it...thanks again, man. :burnout:

I absolutely will. I just ordered the Steeda quad, as well as the OEM clutch cable. So i'll get the car in to have this done when I have my input shaft re-shimmed.

 

[04sleeper]

Thanks! Yes, it does clear things up. Since I just had a clutch install and reused the stock pivot ball, I think the best bet is to get the MM kit you mentioned. Hopefully, that will solve everything as that would be a pretty easy fix for the high RST/RXT grabbing point. Please post your driving impressions with the MM kit installed when you get it...thanks again, man. :burnout:

The MM Kit will lower the clutch pedal itself, but removing the Freeplay Mod and adjusting your firewall adjuster until you put a small amount of preload on the TOB will make your pedal engaugement lower. I would try this first before ordering the MM kit. It might be just right when you are finished.

Yes, the Firewall adjuster is not supposed to be used for pedal height. It is simply a device used to adjust the TOB into proper position. It is used because there are many differences between clutch thicknesses, flywheel thicknesses, cable lengths, differences in TOB's, etc.... The firewall adjuster allows you to make that adjustment without going with a cheap inferior adjustable cable and having to climb under your car to make that adjustment.

 

[ScottsdaleSnake]

The MM Kit will lower the clutch pedal itself, but removing the Freeplay Mod and adjusting your firewall adjuster until you put a small amount of preload on the TOB will make your pedal engaugement lower. I would try this first before ordering the MM kit. It might be just right when you are finished.

Yes, the Firewall adjuster is not supposed to be used for pedal height. It is simply a device used to adjust the TOB into proper position. It is used because there are many differences between clutch thicknesses, flywheel thicknesses, cable lengths, differences in TOB's, etc.... The firewall adjuster allows you to make that adjustment without going with a cheap inferior adjustable cable and having to climb under your car to make that adjustment.

Well, I wish I came on here a little earlier as I ordered the MM kit an hour ago...lol. Regardless, I'll try your suggestion first...I can always return the MM kit. If I jack the car up and remove the inspection cover, what steps do I need to follow to remove the LDC mod? I looked at the above pic with the mod installed, but I can't see how to remove the cable from the fork or how it would be installed onto the fork. Do I need to press the fork forward -toward the front of the car- in order to unhook it? Do I need to unhook the cable from the quadrant first, or from the fork first? Are there any tips/instructions I should follow to make this easier? I'm sorry if my questions sound stupid as it's basically installing a clutch cable, but I've never done it myself and I don't want to break anything and have to tow the car to my tuner's shop. Thank you very much for your info and help.

 

[DHGTerminator]

Well, I wish I came on here a little earlier as I ordered the MM kit an hour ago...lol. Regardless, I'll try your suggestion first...I can always return the MM kit. If I jack the car up and remove the inspection cover, what steps do I need to follow to remove the LDC mod? I looked at the above pic with the mod installed, but I can't see how to remove the cable from the fork or how it would be installed onto the fork. Do I need to press the fork forward -toward the front of the car- in order to unhook it? Do I need to unhook the cable from the quadrant first, or from the fork first? Are there any tips/instructions I should follow to make this easier? I'm sorry if my questions sound stupid as it's basically installing a clutch cable, but I've never done it myself and I don't want to break anything and have to tow the car to my tuner's shop. Thank you very much for your info and help.

I believe the cable just needs pushed into the larger hole on the clutch fork, then it will slide out and be very easy to remove. Or, if you needed to you could just cut it off with some wire-cutters likely, it's just a spring. Aside from That, I adjusted my FW adjuster to minor pre-load and my release point was still over the brake pedal, so the MM kit will probably be a good investment. I'll be able to tell you shortly enough!

 

[04sleeper]

Well, I wish I came on here a little earlier as I ordered the MM kit an hour ago...lol. Regardless, I'll try your suggestion first...I can always return the MM kit. If I jack the car up and remove the inspection cover, what steps do I need to follow to remove the LDC mod? I looked at the above pic with the mod installed, but I can't see how to remove the cable from the fork or how it would be installed onto the fork. Do I need to press the fork forward -toward the front of the car- in order to unhook it? Do I need to unhook the cable from the quadrant first, or from the fork first? Are there any tips/instructions I should follow to make this easier? I'm sorry if my questions sound stupid as it's basically installing a clutch cable, but I've never done it myself and I don't want to break anything and have to tow the car to my tuner's shop. Thank you very much for your info and help.

All you need to do is to pry the clutch fork forward enougn to push the cable end over enough to pop it out of the release hole. (Only about an inch inward from where it is hooked up now) I like to use a large screw driver or small pry bar to push the fork forward.

No need to unhook it from anywhere else. Just unhook the cable, slide off the Freeplay Mod, and reinstall the cable and adjust thefirewall adjuster outward until there is a small amount of preload on the TOB.

 

[ScottsdaleSnake]

1

 

[ScottsdaleSnake]

I believe the cable just needs pushed into the larger hole on the clutch fork, then it will slide out and be very easy to remove. Or, if you needed to you could just cut it off with some wire-cutters likely, it's just a spring. Aside from That, I adjusted my FW adjuster to minor pre-load and my release point was still over the brake pedal, so the MM kit will probably be a good investment. I'll be able to tell you shortly enough!

Thanks for pointing that out...I forgot that you don't have the LDC mod in place yet still have a high grabbing point. I'm glad I ordered the MM kit then...I guess I'll be installing it shortly, too! Thanks again for your help.

All you need to do is to pry the clutch fork forward enougn to push the cable end over enough to pop it out of the release hole. (Only about an inch inward from where it is hooked up now) I like to use a large screw driver or small pry bar to push the fork forward.

No need to unhook it from anywhere else. Just unhook the cable, slide off the Freeplay Mod, and reinstall the cable and adjust thefirewall adjuster outward until there is a small amount of preload on the TOB.

Thank you very much for your help and advice. I'll get on this ASAP...

 

[black 10th vert]

Man, this is an interesting thread because ever since first learning about manual transmissions, and clutches back in the '80's, I was always told that the T.O. bearing should contact the fingers, and stay spinning with the clutch. When I got into the Terminator scene back in '06, EVERYBODY insisted that the proper way to adjust the clutch on these cars was to leave the bearing about 1/8" off of the fingers so that it doesn't spin when the pedal is released. Now there is contrary info in this thread going back to my original way of learning.:rollseyes I have mine setup with the stock clutch, Fore adjuster, UPR quick release quadrant, LDC Freeplay mod, and stock cable. It is adjusted as EVERYONE both here, and ModFords recommended with the 1/8" gap, and it shifts perfectly, and 100% better than it did with the stock quadrant. What Kevin said about it hitting the plate at high rpm from a stop, and creating heat definitely makes sense, though, so I may go back and tweak the adjustment to make it just touch the fingers.

 

[ScottsdaleSnake]

Correct.

Ford Throw Out Bearings are constant velocity units. They are made to always spin. The Freeplay Mod is made to hold the throw out bearing "Away" from the pressure plate so the throw out bearing does not contact it. This creates more harm than good. Instead of the throw out bearing already spinning at the same RPM as the engine, it slows down and stops. Now when you go to shift the clutch, say @ 6500 RPM. The bearing now has to go from 0 RPM to 6500 RPM instantly! The now "Stopped" bearing contacts the already "Spinning" pressure plate and creats extra wear and heat on the face of the throw out bearing. This will actually make your throw out bearing wear out faster.

Also the spring on the free play mod creates more tension on the clutch making it stiffer to push in.

Hope this helps explain it a little better.

I'm a little confused, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I know the TOB sits/slides on the retainer sleeve, but the actual sleeve does not not spin, right? So, the only time the TOB actually spins is when it makes contact with the fingers, right? Therefore, if I understand correctly, you're saying the fingers actually spin??? I was not aware of that. I thought they are stationary, and only move forward and back to lift the pressure plate via the TOB when engaging the clutch. Where did I go wrong in my understanding....:shrug:

 

[04sleeper]

Man, this is an interesting thread because ever since first learning about manual transmissions, and clutches back in the '80's, I was always told that the T.O. bearing should contact the fingers, and stay spinning with the clutch. When I got into the Terminator scene back in '06, EVERYBODY insisted that the proper way to adjust the clutch on these cars was to leave the bearing about 1/8" off of the fingers so that it doesn't spin when the pedal is released. Now there is contrary info in this thread going back to my original way of learning.:rollseyes I have mine setup with the stock clutch, Fore adjuster, UPR quick release quadrant, LDC Freeplay mod, and stock cable. It is adjusted as EVERYONE both here, and ModFords recommended with the 1/8" gap, and it shifts perfectly, and 100% better than it did with the stock quadrant. What Kevin said about it hitting the plate at high rpm from a stop, and creating heat definitely makes sense, though, so I may go back and tweak the adjustment to make it just touch the fingers.

This is the way it is set up right from the factory on the 03-04 Cobras. The pawl/spring adjuster puts a small amount of tension on the TOB. Why would you change from that I do not understand. Never did. :??: :shrug:

I'm a little confused, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I know the TOB sits/slides on the retainer sleeve, but the actual sleeve does not not spin, right?

Correct. The sleeve does not spin.

So, the only time the TOB actually spins is when it makes contact with the fingers, right?

Correct.

Therefore, if I understand correctly, you're saying the fingers actually spin???

Yes.

I was not aware of that. I thought they are stationary, and only move forward and back to lift the pressure plate via the TOB when engaging the clutch. Where did I go wrong in my understanding....:shrug:

The entire clutch, pressure plate and flywheel all spin together as a whole. The flywheel spins and the pressure plate (that has the fingers) is bolted to it. So naturally it spins as well.

Right from the Ford Manual
The clutch is a single plate, dry friction clutch disc. The clutch disc has a splined hub with integral torsional springs. The clutch disc hub attaches to the input shaft.
Engine output is coupled to the transmission input shaft by friction existing between the clutch disc facings and the flywheel/clutch pressure plate assembly. The extent of this friction is directly related to the composition of the facing material and the magnitude of the clamping forces exerted by the clutch pressure plate and the flywheel on the facings. These factors limit the amount of torque that can be transmitted without slippage.
The clamping force is obtained from a diaphragm spring contained within the clutch pressure plate assembly. This force is developed during the attachment of the clutch pressure plate assembly to the flywheel.
The clutch system is disengaged when the clutch pedal is pressed and is accomplished when the release fingers are fully displaced toward the flywheel. This displacement removes the spring load from the clutch pressure plate and eliminates the coupling friction between the engine and the transmission.
When the clutch pedal is depressed a cable connected to the clutch release lever, hub and bearing actuates the clutch pressure plate diaphragm spring, releasing pressure on the clutch disc. This eliminates the engagement between the transmission and the engine.

Hope this helps.

 

[Alb Cobra]

How do you know or tell if you have proper preload on the TOB? I am assuming that as the clutch wares that this will need to be adjusted. So how can you tell you need to re-preload your TOB?

I just went though and expensive clutch cause I am sure I never had it properly adjusted. I don't want to do this again with-in 5k miles.

The RXT is going to be the next clutch I get.

Thanks!