Motor Failure Causes??

[ANGREY]

To add to that. Most of the inherent advantages of a FPC vs. CPC were given up during development. I know you guys will probably shoot me over this, but it is almost a marketing gimmick.

When you look at what Ford could have offered in a conventional CPC for the $ they spent on developing the FPC, it looked mighty tasty.

That's not quite fully genuine.

Are the differences critical? No, you can make great power with a cross plane crank.

The biggest advantages are:

1) The firing order allows them to fully wring out performance from all 8 cylinders. With CPC and the inherent firing order and double up pulsing and localized issues, the engineers and tuners have to tune to the limiting cylinder. That means if 6 out of the 8 could handle more timing, they're missing out because they have to tune to the lowest performer for safety. This means that all things equal (same stroke and bore) a FPC engine will be able to put out slightly more performance because you're getting the most from all the rotating components.

1.b) The even firing order also helps scavenging and helps the motor breath better. You don't end up with a double pulse on each side, trying to stuff twice as much exhaust volume into the same tube. This can be and is resolved commonly with headers (adjusting the length of the primaries) to even out the pulse, but still.

2) The FPC is much lighter and "rev" happy. Does this translate into performance? Yes, but probably not for what most people EVER use it for. This isn't formula one where cars are doing laps and running WOT up and down the rpm range where hundreds of iterations at a fraction of a second equate to seconds in total race time. But it does rev better. In contrast, the lighter rotating components also are a bit of a negative for launching and drag racing where combined with the trans, it doesn't carry as much rotational momentum into the clutch engagement/launch. Basically, in order to bring the wood, it has to be screaming and grab, vs. a motor/trans with heavier components that can hit hard upon clutch release.

3) The sound. THAT is marketing, but it is by nearly any poll or opinion, BETTER sounding. I happen to think that Ford's newer "flat head" firing order sounds awful. Like garbage awful. There's less than I can count on my hand number of newer Coyote's that sound even okay. Most sound like dogshit to me. The old 302s were good, the 4V modular sounded magical, the newer Coyotes honestly sound like a poor man's build with a crappy Flowmaster exhaust. This is all opinion of course, but the growl of the Voodoo sounds exotic, refined, put together, precise with a bit of violence mixed in. The growl/whine of the newer Coyote sounds as refined as a fist fight in church.j

The numbers don't lie. The voodoo continues to make power almost all the way to factory redline. Even more when the intake and exhaust is opened up. Does it have drawbacks? Sure. Can you get to the same performance with a CPC. Yes, just add a little more volume.

 

[1FASFKR]

That's not quite fully genuine.

Are the differences critical? No, you can make great power with a cross plane crank.

The biggest advantages are:

1) The firing order allows them to fully wring out performance from all 8 cylinders. With CPC and the inherent firing order and double up pulsing and localized issues, the engineers and tuners have to tune to the limiting cylinder. That means if 6 out of the 8 could handle more timing, they're missing out because they have to tune to the lowest performer for safety. This means that all things equal (same stroke and bore) a FPC engine will be able to put out slightly more performance because you're getting the most from all the rotating components.

1.b) The even firing order also helps scavenging and helps the motor breath better. You don't end up with a double pulse on each side, trying to stuff twice as much exhaust volume into the same tube. This can be and is resolved commonly with headers (adjusting the length of the primaries) to even out the pulse, but still.

2) The FPC is much lighter and "rev" happy. Does this translate into performance? Yes, but probably not for what most people EVER use it for. This isn't formula one where cars are doing laps and running WOT up and down the rpm range where hundreds of iterations at a fraction of a second equate to seconds in total race time. But it does rev better. In contrast, the lighter rotating components also are a bit of a negative for launching and drag racing where combined with the trans, it doesn't carry as much rotational momentum into the clutch engagement/launch. Basically, in order to bring the wood, it has to be screaming and grab, vs. a motor/trans with heavier components that can hit hard upon clutch release.

3) The sound. THAT is marketing, but it is by nearly any poll or opinion, BETTER sounding. I happen to think that Ford's newer "flat head" firing order sounds awful. Like garbage awful. There's less than I can count on my hand number of newer Coyote's that sound even okay. Most sound like dogshit to me. The old 302s were good, the 4V modular sounded magical, the newer Coyotes honestly sound like a poor man's build with a crappy Flowmaster exhaust. This is all opinion of course, but the growl of the Voodoo sounds exotic, refined, put together, precise with a bit of violence mixed in. The growl/whine of the newer Coyote sounds as refined as a fist fight in church.j

The numbers don't lie. The voodoo continues to make power almost all the way to factory redline. Even more when the intake and exhaust is opened up. Does it have drawbacks? Sure. Can you get to the same performance with a CPC. Yes, just add a little more volume.

Stated very well. I found the Road Runner Boss motors to sound pretty good with the marketing gimmick quad exhaust. Don't really know if the quads add a little HP or not really. But when you remove the restrictor plates on each side, the exhaust sounds really good. Second best factory mustang exhaust...behind the Voodoo imo.

 

[ElCoyote]

350 < Z/28 < 350R

The reliability on these motors just leaves way too much to be desired .
Unlike the LS7 head fix, I've yet to see a "fix" for the VooDoo's oiling issues..

 

[GTSpartan]

That's not quite fully genuine.

Are the differences critical? No, you can make great power with a cross plane crank.

The biggest advantages are:

1) The firing order allows them to fully wring out performance from all 8 cylinders. With CPC and the inherent firing order and double up pulsing and localized issues, the engineers and tuners have to tune to the limiting cylinder. That means if 6 out of the 8 could handle more timing, they're missing out because they have to tune to the lowest performer for safety. This means that all things equal (same stroke and bore) a FPC engine will be able to put out slightly more performance because you're getting the most from all the rotating components.

1.b) The even firing order also helps scavenging and helps the motor breath better. You don't end up with a double pulse on each side, trying to stuff twice as much exhaust volume into the same tube. This can be and is resolved commonly with headers (adjusting the length of the primaries) to even out the pulse, but still.

2) The FPC is much lighter and "rev" happy. Does this translate into performance? Yes, but probably not for what most people EVER use it for. This isn't formula one where cars are doing laps and running WOT up and down the rpm range where hundreds of iterations at a fraction of a second equate to seconds in total race time. But it does rev better. In contrast, the lighter rotating components also are a bit of a negative for launching and drag racing where combined with the trans, it doesn't carry as much rotational momentum into the clutch engagement/launch. Basically, in order to bring the wood, it has to be screaming and grab, vs. a motor/trans with heavier components that can hit hard upon clutch release.

3) The sound. THAT is marketing, but it is by nearly any poll or opinion, BETTER sounding. I happen to think that Ford's newer "flat head" firing order sounds awful. Like garbage awful. There's less than I can count on my hand number of newer Coyote's that sound even okay. Most sound like dogshit to me. The old 302s were good, the 4V modular sounded magical, the newer Coyotes honestly sound like a poor man's build with a crappy Flowmaster exhaust. This is all opinion of course, but the growl of the Voodoo sounds exotic, refined, put together, precise with a bit of violence mixed in. The growl/whine of the newer Coyote sounds as refined as a fist fight in church.j

The numbers don't lie. The voodoo continues to make power almost all the way to factory redline. Even more when the intake and exhaust is opened up. Does it have drawbacks? Sure. Can you get to the same performance with a CPC. Yes, just add a little more volume.

Agree with everything you wrote, just pointing out that Ford gave up most of those advantages that you listed during development, to achieve acceptable levels of durability and NVH.

*Crank design - Basically every FPC has a U-D-D-U configuration. The Voodoo has a U-D-U-D. This comes at a weight penalty to quell vibration.
*Lightweight rotating assembly - The dual mass flywheel installed on the Voodoo negates any weight advantage over its CPC cousin.


SID197 did a fantastic write-up on this very subject. In the end, the Voodoo only managed 4hp more than a CPC version of itself. In my numble opinion, to go through all that work for those gains puts this as a marketing exercise to me. Given that Ford chose not to even use the engine in their race mustangs should tell you something.

https://www.svtperformance.com/thre...use-of-the-gt350s-fpc-5-2l-voodoo-v8.1166797/

 

[gimmie11s]

That was a great article.


Sent from my iPhone using svtperformance.com

 

[ANGREY]

Agree with everything you wrote, just pointing out that Ford gave up most of those advantages that you listed during development, to achieve acceptable levels of durability and NVH.

*Crank design - Basically every FPC has a U-D-D-U configuration. The Voodoo has a U-D-U-D. This comes at a weight penalty to quell vibration.
*Lightweight rotating assembly - The dual mass flywheel installed on the Voodoo negates any weight advantage over its CPC cousin.


SID197 did a fantastic write-up on this very subject. In the end, the Voodoo only managed 4hp more than a CPC version of itself. In my numble opinion, to go through all that work for those gains puts this as a marketing exercise to me. Given that Ford chose not to even use the engine in their race mustangs should tell you something.

https://www.svtperformance.com/thre...use-of-the-gt350s-fpc-5-2l-voodoo-v8.1166797/

Again, penalizing the 350 for having a superior clutch isn't apples/apples. Anyone who builds a CPC configuration and wants torque capability above stock levels is going to have to (eventually) swap to a better (most likely twin disc) clutch as well. If you compare apples to apples, the Voodoo, even with the NVH efforts still has less mass in the rotating components (of the motor). Paired with an equally capable clutch, the savings are there.

As I conceded, you can make as much or comparable performance with a CPC setup and for most applications, it's just as capable. The CPC approach has had infinitely more R&D applied to it over the decades in terms of mass production offerings.

One thing I didn't mention was the RPM range, and that's another power increasing advantage the FPC offers (given equal displacement). Revving to 8250 and the firing order allows it to make power (without diminishing returns) up high. Granted, can you rev to 8250 with a CPC? Sure, some of it's in valve train and springs, but a good portion of it's also rotating components.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of equal displacement, and see which motor could max out with the most output. I think for everything we're accustomed to seeing (street, strip, drag, blower cars) CPC makes sense, but for a high revving, N/A track car, I think FPC makes sense.

 

[ANGREY]

350 < Z/28 < 350R

The reliability on these motors just leaves way too much to be desired .
Unlike the LS7 head fix, I've yet to see a "fix" for the VooDoo's oiling issues..

While I generally don't like to point at others' backyard as a defense of my own, the Coyote's certainly have just as many issues lately what with the infamous "tick" and now the latent issues with the 10 speed autos. The MT has always had issues (that are well documented) and there's plenty of people with 18's and 19's having issues with 3-4 gears and forks failing. Combined with the infamous typewriter tick that many/most are experiencing, it's not like the Coyote offerings are any better at the moment. Additionally, people are starting to find out that taking a 6 speed gear box and stuffing more gears into the same size package is resulting in durability issues (who'da thought?)

In summary, if I had to choose between a motor that burns oil and one that ticks, I'd probably sleep better at night with the former.

 

[GTSpartan]

Again, penalizing the 350 for having a superior clutch isn't apples/apples. Anyone who builds a CPC configuration and wants torque capability above stock levels is going to have to (eventually) swap to a better (most likely twin disc) clutch as well. If you compare apples to apples, the Voodoo, even with the NVH efforts still has less mass in the rotating components (of the motor). Paired with an equally capable clutch, the savings are there.

As I conceded, you can make as much or comparable performance with a CPC setup and for most applications, it's just as capable. The CPC approach has had infinitely more R&D applied to it over the decades in terms of mass production offerings.

One thing I didn't mention was the RPM range, and that's another power increasing advantage the FPC offers (given equal displacement). Revving to 8250 and the firing order allows it to make power (without diminishing returns) up high. Granted, can you rev to 8250 with a CPC? Sure, some of it's in valve train and springs, but a good portion of it's also rotating components.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of equal displacement, and see which motor could max out with the most output. I think for everything we're accustomed to seeing (street, strip, drag, blower cars) CPC makes sense, but for a high revving, N/A track car, I think FPC makes sense.

I think we are violently agreeing on the theoretical merits of both configuration, but I'm probably not doing a very good job at articulating what concessions/trade-offs Ford was forced to give up during development, that eliminated most of the inherent pros of a FPC.

As the engine exists today in reality, it has no rotating mass advantage over a CPC version of itself, negating one of a FPC main advantages. Assuming the same valvetrain is used between CPC and FPC, it doesn't care what kind of crank is spinning it. If each rotating assembly has the same mass (which Ford says they do), RPM capability should be essentially the same between the two. Again, negating one of its main advantages. Given that it only made 4 more HP during Ford's development, should tell you that at the end of the day, there was basically very little measurable difference between the two.

Apples, oranges, or grapes, it's how the engine turned out. From me in the peanut gallery, taking all that R&D $$$$ and investing in a balls-out 9,000+ rpm CPC version would have been preferable.

 

[662]

agreement with the peanut galley can only come knowing most likely they don't own or have not driven FPC. In my humble opinion it's a phenomenal motor. To drive one is to love one knowing regardless of whatever mass is rotating, the FPC is a easily tunable fire breathing symphony of symmetric exhaust pulses.

Engines don't drink, they breathe. And this is what gives the GT350 it's primary advantage.

 

[gimmie11s]

Engines don't drink, they breathe. And this is what gives the GT350 it's primary advantage.

Ah yes, but the Voodoo does both!

 

[ElCoyote]

agreement with the peanut galley can only come knowing most likely they don't own or have not driven FPC. In my humble opinion it's a phenomenal motor. To drive one is to love one knowing regardless of whatever mass is rotating, the FPC is a easily tunable fire breathing symphony of symmetric exhaust pulses.

Engines don't drink, they breathe. And this is what gives the GT350 it's primary advantage.

But the GT350 does drink! oil... lol

 

[johnny2_3]

So it doesn't sound like there is a "single" cause for the failures. Not too concerned with the oil conception, within reason.

Has anyone tried a dry sump set up on their car yet?

 

[1FASFKR]

Can anyone confirm if Ford made a running to change to the 5.2 FPC? New design pistons and ring packs for 2018+? Can't get a hard confirmation on it. I'm at 1k miles and and still topped on the dip stick of my 18 R. Does it concern me that I could have an issue someday? Sure. I keep an eye on it. My 14 GT500 Trinity didn't use a drop. My 12 Boss used a 3/4 a quart per 1500 miles from day one.

 

[07 Black Beauty]

Can anyone confirm if Ford made a running to change to the 5.2 FPC? New design pistons and ring packs for 2018+? Can't get a hard confirmation on it. I'm at 1k miles and and still topped on the dip stick of my 18 R. Does it concern me that I could have an issue someday? Sure. I keep an eye on it. My 14 GT500 Trinity didn't use a drop. My 12 Boss used a 3/4 a quart per 1500 miles from day one.

I'm @ 3700 miles on my DD 18 R and it uses little to no oil thus far. Hopefully it doesn't develop issues that others have but worst case that's what the warranty is for. I will eventually do some engine mods to the car once I'm confident the motor is solid. Currently I'm leaning some 4.09 gears which I feel will pair nicely with how rev happy this car is.

 

[Race Red Boss]

Stated very well. I found the Road Runner Boss motors to sound pretty good with the marketing gimmick quad exhaust. Don't really know if the quads add a little HP or not really. But when you remove the restrictor plates on each side, the exhaust sounds really good. Second best factory mustang exhaust...behind the Voodoo imo.

Reminds me of a story when I had my 12 Boss.....driving along, cruising in 3rd gear and I have this guy come up beside and start pacing me, didn't pay attention initially, but then the guy hollers at me and says "that's the best @$%% sounding mustang I've ever heard!" Told him thanks and he sped off. Yes, restrictor plates removed...PLUS had the Corsa Extreme axle backs.

 

[Tank5879]

Its funny. Given how upset everyone is about the GT500 being a DCT car.... I was thinking if the GT350 was introduced with the cross plane crank, more of an evolution of say, the Boss Roadrunner. How would it have been received? How many "are you dissapointed?" threads would there be? It would be people screaming about how its a 'hot-rodded coyote" and "they want 50 grand for that engine?" Call it marketing if you want, but to make the 350 what it is they decided that it needed a more unique engine. While its not perfect, we are almost into the 4th model year with no power increases. Most previous SVTs didn't get that time frame, and all have their flaws.
03/04 cobra
07/10 GT500
11/12 GT500
12/13 Boss
13/14 GT500

I think its really interesting that the past few specialty vehicles are all unique. The new model doesn't automatically make the old one obsolete.