question about headers

Van@RevanRacing

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I'm going to stick with the stock manifolds for now, buy an off road H pipe, and have the green cats welded in place. If my exhaust shop puts them in the same spot as the OEM cats I don't think there will be any issues, but only time will tell.

bluesnake263 for what it is worth my car picked up an additional 6 RWHP with an off road H versus the OEM Cats and H-Pipe.

Ford put a very good quality high flow catalytic converter on our cars from the factory. Which is one of the many reasons why ALMOST every aftermarket tune for 2013+ GT500's with stock exhaust still has the COT strategy turned on.
 

bluesnake263

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Van thanks for that info! The main goal for my exhaust is sound not squeezing out every HP I can. That's why I thought maybe the green cats would give me some more volume. on my old 2010 (the one in my avi) it really roared after I installed some high flow cats. However, since I was trying to not tune the car for now, the green cats seemed like a good option.

Van, would your recommendation be to stay with the stock set up, and go with the factory connect cat back from stainless works?
 

bluesnake263

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it would be nice if someone wold make some shorty headers for the 13/14. All I have seen is long tube set ups.
 

Kooks Headers

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I can't find the CARB EO number for these cats at the CARB website. Are they manufactured by someone else? And "Kook" (while you're on here), these are metallic substrate cats, correct? What is the cell count and how are they bonded to the stainless tube that encapsulates them?

I'm asking because historically, this type of cat has failed miserably when used behind a typical GT500. If you move them downstream of their OEM location, they may take longer to light-off and as such a check engine light may appear. I'm as curious as Van is regarding testing and answers other than "we ran it behind___________" and it did fine. In order to receive an EO approval, somebody had to provide evidence to the EPA that these cats do not degrade until a certain number of miles or years have passed, IIRC. I'd just like to know more about the specific vehicles that were used for the testing approval.

These cats are not CARB approved. They do have an EPA certification number on them which will qualify them for emissions testing in 49 states. As for the testing and other questions, I do not have that info in front of me, but I will have a response very soon.

Thank you
 

Van@RevanRacing

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Van thanks for that info! The main goal for my exhaust is sound not squeezing out every HP I can. That's why I thought maybe the green cats would give me some more volume. on my old 2010 (the one in my avi) it really roared after I installed some high flow cats. However, since I was trying to not tune the car for now, the green cats seemed like a good option.

Van, would your recommendation be to stay with the stock set up, and go with the factory connect cat back from stainless works?

There are a lot of options out there for a factory connect cat back and axle back. If you don't want to tune the car stay away from aftermarket high flow anything and focus on axle backs.

I've had some success with Stainless Works although they have had some fitment issues. I've also had success with Magnaflow, Ford Racing and Corsa.
 

Derek5774

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beefcake is correct. The GREEN cats are 49 state legal and have an EPA certification number on them.

As for endurance testing, we have these cats on cars making 900+ hp with no problems. We also have some NMRA racers running these cats on their racecars instead of off-road pipes.

The CATS are legal but the long tubes are not, correct? You said exhaust is not above. Trying to clarify.

I didn't say anything about 1200 HP Shelby's in relation to these catalytic converters and this discussion. Last time I mentioned anything about a 1200 Horsepower Shelby was regarding an alternator on FaceBook :shrug:

I asked about endurance testing which I will explain further in my next reply. :beer: Nothing loaded in the question whatsoever.



My question is specific to Catalytic Converter Over Temperature Protection Strategy within the tune for GT500's and any car for that matter. Although your Catalytic Converter is certified with an EPA # what has to be done within the tune of the vehicle to properly cool the catalytic converters to prevent failure?

The OEM Converters are adjacent to the OEM exhaust manifolds. Your catalytic converters and other manufacturers are further "downstream" after the long tube collector. Even if you leave the OEM tune in the car is the OEM Catalytic Converter Protection Strategy sufficient enough with your "Green Catalytic Converters" that they are sufficiently cooled to prevent failure? If the OEM Catalytic Converter Protection strategy is not adequate enough what parameters have you determined necessary to adequately cool your catalytic converter to prevent failure?

The above questions are a direct correlation to my previous question regarding "Endurance Testing". Although you have many vehicles running them with high horsepower what kind of mileage and heat range have your catalytic converters gone through? I'm sure many people are interested in your product however failed catalytic converters can cause catastrophic engine damage and this type of information is critical to consumers IMO.

When our cars go through the CARB Certification Process the catalytic converters are thoroughly abused and tested before receiving the certification. I see you have an EPA Certification please expand on the differences between CARB and EPA Certification with relation do your catalytic converters and how that will enable customers to pass emissions testing in states like New York for example.

Thanks in advance and I look forward to your response.

Van

These cats are not CARB approved. They do have an EPA certification number on them which will qualify them for emissions testing in 49 states. As for the testing and other questions, I do not have that info in front of me, but I will have a response very soon.

Thank you

KOOKS

These are valid questions and a lot of people are waiting for your reply.
 

bluesnake263

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yeah my top two choices would be the stainless works cat back or the ford racing sport mufflers axle back
 

bluesnake263

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unless SW would offer an H pipe setup....then screw it I'll do the full system, long tubes on back, and F&^# my warranty in the a$$
 

bluesnake263

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Beef I saw that you do have some great prices on that system, and the very day that I get my car delivered, I am calling you to overnight it to me :)
 

mwilson6192

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Are there any updates to this discussion?

I'm ready to embrace an exhaust solution which enables LT headers, an H-Pipe, and fully certified cats mated to the remainder of the OEM exhaust (which includes the OEM mufflers) that pass New York State (and thus 49-state) emissions. :)
 
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mwilson6192

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Kooks, you were going to supply some form of a report on the Kooks Green Cats and their ability to be 49-state legal. I am very interested to see evidence of the ability of the Kooks Green Cats coupled with the Kooks headers and be 49-state compliant.

Do you have that report completed and could you kindly post the information here?

Thanks!
 

biminiLX

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Kooks---do you guys offer an H-pipe for the longtubes? I'm only seeing X-pipe.
Would be going with 1 7/8" and would like an o/r H-pipe
Thanks, J
 

JimIII@jdm

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We have several customers in the NY NJ area running Green cats with 2007-2014 GT500's with all emissions controls on in the tuning and no CEL. We will only install Kooks Green Cat systems on our local customers cars because of the continuing issues running high flow or no cats and State Inspection.

JimIII@JDM
 

mwilson6192

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We have several customers in the NY NJ area running Green cats with 2007-2014 GT500's with all emissions controls on in the tuning and no CEL. We will only install Kooks Green Cat systems on our local customers cars because of the continuing issues running high flow or no cats and State Inspection.

JimIII@JDM

JimIII and/or Kooks,

I remain very confused by these types of statements. My understanding of the problem statement is that it is an engineering issue with the two following engineering problems:

1. Any aftermarket catalytic converter (Cat) must have the requisite testing by the EPA to not only pass EPA emissions requirements, but to have the durability and quality of construction to handle the heat and duty cycles of the 2013-2014 GT500 engine and supercharger boost pressures.

2. Any aftermarket exhaust solution must have the ability to pass both a visual inspection and the OBDII code inspection and/or tail pipe sniffer tests.

My understanding of the Kooks product was that the Kooks Green Cats are 49-state compliant, but the Kooks long tube (LT) headers are not legal. To review my specific application, 99% of my driving will be regular street duty, but 1% of the time I will go to race tracks (Watkins Glen in particular). Thus, my needs are simple in light of others. I want the exhaust solution to pick up the additional HP and torque that this performance upgrade offers. Accordingly, what I am seeking is a long tube header AND corresponding Cat that bolt to either the standard remaining OEM exhaust, or add a compliant Kooks H-Pipe that collectively pass New York State emissions, without so much as having to remove a bolt or applying multiple tunes.

From my somewhat challenged understanding, I believe the discussion centers on whether the OBDII can or cannot read the O2 sensors correctly as the "first set" of O2 sensors are much farther downstream on an LT installation versus the OEM manifold location and therefore the O2 sensors return an errant code. Additionally, if a tune attempts to turn off the O2 sensors (COT strategy disabled), a "not ready" or equivalent CEL code is reported. I am aware that some tunes may have a "armed" setting for passing an emissions inspection test and a "secondary" tune will have a "non-armed" setting for a non-inspection setting, which is something I don't which to have to do.

Again, just to reiterate, it would be grand to have a single long tube application with appropriately rated, duty cycle proven cats and, without fear, pass the stringent New York State emissions inspections without adding/removing/doing anything special. My research to date and interaction with vendors have resulted in the fact that a market performance solution does not yet exist for this specific application.

I appreciate the dialog but several vendors and SVTP posters (Tob for example) have asked for some level of proof and there seems that there is not general consensus that consumers who are asking for my type of requirements do not have a complete market solution available for this specific application.

To be crystal clear, what I am looking for (and will pay $$$$ for) is a 1-7/8 long tube header, coupled with certified EPA Cats with the requisite duty cycles, coupled with OEM stock or aftermarket H-pipe, coupled with OEM O2 sensors, with a tune, that is 100% compliant with New York State emissions inspection that requires ZERO manipulation of any kind - just like the OEM exhaust that comes with the 2013-2014 GT500.

Thank you to anyone who can address these requirements.
 

13RaceRedShelby

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I'd go with a SW if they made an H too, however I'll never change my mufflers until someone copies the same tip cut as the OEM mufflers. They look perfect like that! Gorgeous. Not matching that angle cut is a deal breaker for me.

The Corsa system has the same tip design... although I'd prefer a slightly bigger tip if I were going to the trouble of getting a new exhaust. I'm pretty sure these are 3.5" just like stock. :thumbsup:

2013-14 Shelby GT500 Exhaust: Corsa Sport Axle Back On Mustang GT - YouTube
 

13RaceRedShelby

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In resposne to the OP... Just get a catback and call it a day. LT headers don't effect the sound as much as you're hoping. LT headers are for gaining power and you're not after that. Yeah they change the sound some but not enough if that's all you are after. I have the offroad H-pipe from Van with stock mufflers. It's definitly louder but requires a tune. I assume you could use the offoad H-pipe, MIL eliminators instead of a tune, and swap out the pipe for inspection. The stock Hpipe flows REALLY well so i dont think you will gain much if any sound by going to a different style Converter. You'll just blow money and possibly end up with a quieter exhaust.

I too prefer the H-pipe over the X-pipe b/c i dont like "raspy" exhaust. This is also why I still haven't bought an aftermarket catback. Wait, didn't I just say the stock mufflers were raspy? Yes, but all the aftermarket catback options are straithorough/packed/perforated mufflers which equals raspy. Altough flow isn't as good, I prefer a chambered muffler. Call me old school but chambered mufflers are deeper, less raspy, and meaner sounding.

On that note... flowmaster is supposed to be sending me a prototype axle back to try out within the next few weeks. Problem, they are wanting to use their Outlaw muffler (their packed style muffler) instead of the 40 series chambered muffler. I am currently trying to talk them out of it. Anyways, we'll see what they send me.
 
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bluesnake263

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13 race red, thans for the advice! I believe I will just go with a catback for now and see how that goes. If I need more volume then I will go with an off road H and MIL eliminators. Here in NC there isn't much visual inspection, and I know a guy at a dealership that says he can get me passed. If all else fails, I can just swap the stock H pipe and cats back on once a year.
 

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