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Discussion in 'Driveline' started by T800, Sep 14, 2012.
Let me know if know know why things like torque arms, pan hard bars and watts links were developed.
This is funny! You are still avoiding my question and original beef. As per your statement, is it your belief that a solid axle equipped car can only go in straight lines? Simple question man. I can re quote you original statement for the third time if you forgot what you said.
I'm not avoiding your question, I know what I said. Here's the quote to remind you:
I will reiterate for you. For drag racers that want to go in a straight line as their primary concern and don't care about ride OR handling, will be well served with a SRA. This covers what, 1% of Cobra owners? Maybe 2%, but certainly not more.
Let me know when you're done researching my question I proposed to you because it's clear to me and everyone else reading this thread that you don't know what those things were invented to do. I'll give you a hint, none of those items would be found on or needed with an IRS.
Just have to put my 2 cents in here...
I never installed the FTBR kit in my car. I had the complete Kenny Brown system in the car when I bought it. Broke a halfshaft and the diff cover at the track on dr's. Fixed it and broke another halfshaft on the street on my R888's on the 1-2 shift at wot.
Traded my IRS after I fixed it again for a fully built SRA with adjustable upper and lowers, shocks, springs, etc. Installed it in the car and honestly haven't noticed a difference in ride quality and handling.
I believe the majority of cobra owners are not driving their cars to the limit of handling, myself included. I'll run 3-4 autox events a year and haven't noticed any negative effects to the SRA. I'm not the quickest by any means, but I still have fun.
The part of the SRA I enjoy is being able to play when I drive the car (once a month or so, 1500 miles a year) and go to the dragstrip or backroads when I have the time and enjoy the car without worrying about towing the car back home. After $300 in towing bills I don't have to worry about it anymore.
Everyone has their opinion, but in all honestly I don't think the majority of cobra owners will notice a negative side effect to swapping to SRA over building the IRS. I completely agree the FTBR kit is a quality kit, just took less time and effort for me to swap to a built SRA and eliminate any doubt from my mind.
Where in your quote does it talk about being concerned with both ride and handling? Your statement says if you swap to an SRA that "Hopefully you're only concerned with going in a straight line and never needing or wanting to turn the steering wheel."
Are you really so thick headed that you cannot admit that your statement was false? I know what watts link and panhard setups are intended to do. They assist in making SRA setups GO AROUND CORNERS. Low and behold that according to your statement this cannot be done. That is why I argued with it in the first place. So getting back to my original question. Do you stand behind your original statement? If you switch to an SRA, will you only be able to travel in a straight line and never turn a wheel? The thick headedness of some people on this site never ceases to amaze me...
Of course if you switch to an SRA you can still go around corners silly. You can find a SRA in ALL sorts of vehicles that go around corners. Those vehicles include, but are not limited to, dump trucks, school busses, firetrucks, garbage trucks, ambulances, Greyhound busses, motorhomes, Peterbuilts and Kenworth semi tractors, farm tractors, front end loaders, mail delivery vehicles, UPS and Fex-Ex cargo vans, etc, etc, etc. Not a single one of those vehicles are incapable of going around corners. But fast or efficient is a word that is NOT in their vocabulary.
Feel free to convert your Cobra to a SRA. It's a free country. As long as you don't ask me to drive it on track and pass a bunch of much more capable vehicles with it, to shoot some videos for you, I'm fine with it! :-D
But this is SVTP, and if you're on an internet message board, you're looking for ways to make your car go faster. And if you want to go faster around corners, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE CONVERTING A COBRA TO AN SRA, unless you are 16 and don't know any better and get advice from SRA converters on an interent message board.
The development of torque arms, pan hard bars and watts-links were added to the SRA suspension because they were not efficient and did not like going around corners "With Efficiency". Key words bolded for you.;-)
:lol: Very well said, Bruce!
KB's kit is very poor. We had a guy post here a few years back regarding the very poor qaulity of those rear upper/lower control arms, which were the primary parts of his IRS kit. Not sure what the qaulity is now since he's back in business but he turned a lot of peoplem off to guys coming up with a fix for the IRS 'issues.'
Glad I ditched the IRS brace for the LPW cover last year.
that new frpp cover is a pretty nice piece
lol, i can't believe people still think an SRA is better than IRS...so many dumb people out there
I didnt say sra is Better than irs. I refuted the dumb statement that just because you have a solid axle it means you can't go around corners anymore. That's simply not true. Now it turns out the person that made the comment was also implying in said comment that he was speaking about ride and cornering "efficiency" as well. I guess I just need to learn to read between the lines in terminator talk. It's funny even with people stating there cars still handle after the swap that 427cobra won't acknowledge that his statement was a blanket statement and stupid. Then he went on comparing every solid axle mustang to a garbage truck. But yes. You're right. Us people that have seen, been in, and driven solid axle cars that can actually take a corner are all so dumb. Classic
Yea it is. That's the one I'm ordering.
There is a clear and concise reason, which nobody can argue, that Cobras cost more than Mustang GTs when they were new. This is the exact same reason that Cobras command higher resale values than Mustang GTs when they are used. They originally came with better engines, better transmissions, better brakes AND, wait for it ................................................................ better suspensions that include the infamous IRS!!! :-D
So when you convert your Cobra suspension to a Mustang GT SRA, this makes the car less Cobra and more Mustang GT. It also speaks volumes for resale value that somebody most likely beat the crap out of the car drag racing it. This decreases value, plain and simple.
The team of SVT engineers, employed by Ford Motor Company, who by the way are engineering graduates that are specialists in vehicle suspension systems and vehicle dynamics. (they are not weekend warriors like most of us) These guys actually make a living developing cars and drive the top secret camouflaged prototype cars on Ford's proving grounds. They also go to tracks in the Michigan area like Waterford Hills, Grattan Raceway, GingerMan Raceway and Mid-Ohio. Some of these guys are friends of mine and I can tell you from personal experience they are VERY good at what they do! Not a single one of them are internet keyboard commandos or self professed internet experts. (although they do give excellent advice if you know their internet message board screen names) Their job is to evaluate the manners and handling characteristics of the vehicles they are developing. I guarantee you that if you ever got a ride with one of these cats on track, you would not believe a Mustang could do the things they do with these cars.
When this team of SVT engineers were working on the 1999 Cobra, developing the Cobra suspension, they decided that the IRS was the way to go. This was not one college educated engineer specialializing in suspension and vehicle dynamics, it was an entire team of SVT engineers combining their collective knowledge.
Unfortunately for many Cobra owners, me included, we were significantly disappointed in the end result in the performance of the factory delivered IRS. This was mainly due to the NVH requirements for production vehicles. After one year of tracking my 2000 Cobra R, I ripped apart the IRS to try and figure out what was going on because that car simply would not go around corners on the race track. Corvettes were kicking my ass which is something I was NOT ok with! This by the way is the same reason drag racers can't launch their cars, have wheel hop and poor 60' times with a stock rubber bushed IRS. Not to mention broken halfshafts along with cracked and broken rear covers. There is absolutely no stability in all of the components in the entire IRS assembly when mounted in rubber. This is why the IRS has received so much hatred. After I pulled the IRS out of this brand new track car of mine, to my shock, I found WAAAAY too many parts mounted in soft compliant rubber bushings. I took the project on and fixed the IRS. It wasn't easy and I didn't nail it on the first attempt. It actually took five years with five in and outs of the IRS assembly in my R&D car. So I understand people that have hatred for the IRS. I was once one of them! But I wouldn't put a SRA in my car if someone put a gun to my head. I have SRA's in two of my Mustangs and neither one of them could negotiate a corner if their life depended on it. They are my 1966 Mustang Coupe and my 2007 Shelby GT500, which by the way was one of the first GT500's delivered in the Midwest back in August of 2006.
Now the aluminum, UHMW and Delrin bushed IRS in my 2000 Cobra R actually makes me a better driver now that I've fixed it. It's SIGNIFICANTLY more forgiving than an SRA, has a larger window between traction and slip and the time frame somewhere between 'woops' and 'oh shit' is like a minute compared to 10 seconds with a typical SRA.
Like I told you before, it's a free country. Nobody is holding a gun to your head preventing you from converting your Cobra from a modern day suspension system to an archaic SRA. The SRA was developed somewhere back in 3000 BC or earlier. (most likely earlier, when the wheel was developed) Lots of people are resistant to change and I understand why people like to (and to quote a famous saying) Keep It Simple Stupid because there are few things more simple than a SRA. OK, a SFA, (solid front axle) is pretty simple too but they have gone the way of the tyrannosaurus rex.
Some food for thought.
Here is Griggs shop car that's daily driven. Its a 98 cobra vert with there gr-40 suspension. There gr-40 is the street setup. It sure looks like it can't take a corner at all with that silly SRA:rollseyes
Griggs GR40 Mustang at Virginia City Hill Climb - YouTube
This is a video of a vendor on our website in his stock gt500. He is keeping up with some cars that handle very well and is still running the stock 285 goodyears. Yes, it sure looks like his lousy solid axle should only be used in a dumptruck.
2013 GT500 Revan Racing VS. Camaro ZL1 Torq Road Course - YouTube
I too could post a million videos of cars with solid axles passing vets and other cars with irs. Bottom line is you CAN set it up to handle efficiently, and take a damn good corner. And truth be told, its probably much easier to set up a live axle to put power down on corner exit then it is an irs. I am sure ac427cobra knows a ton about irs and has some great ideas to make his work well. But the bottom line is, in his original statement he told a fellow Terminator owner that if he switches to a live axle he better hope he never wants to turn a wheel again and that live axles only work for people that are concerned with going in a straight line. That is just a dumbass blanket statement that either he really believes and is that dumb, or he just wants to push his irs on people and help sell products for his company by pushing people in that direction. I know it isnt the former as I can tell just by his posts that he is very intelligent and knowledgeable when it comes to suspension setup and the handling of our mustangs. I have even conceded to him a few points in our discussion. If its the latter, I hope it comes from a total belief in his products. If that's the case, I would advise him to take a look at some other companies success's with a proven platform. Contrary to his first statement in this thread, you can make a solid axle equipped car turn a corner.
One thing I would like everyone to know is the amount of use/abuse my particular car endures. It is driven EVERY day(except for snow days). I have put 30K miles on it in the last 11 months!!!
The car see's frequent 3rd gear pulls on the freeway. I don't rag on it in 1st(tires are expensive)...usually a soft launch, but the shift to 2nd is like a prison rape when street racing.
Just didn't want people to think my Terminator is one of the many that rarely get started, let alone driven. The brace has only been on for a little over a month and I am at a loss to figure out why NOW the diff cover decides to grenade. Have had the R888's since March(getting CRAZY mileage out of them!). I guess parts let go when they want...
They have come up with all sorts of things to make SRAs handle better in race cars because SRAs don't like going around corners.
99% of the people downgrading their Cobra IRS suspension to that of the cheaper Mustang GT suspension are NOT putting torque arms, pan hard bars or watts links in them. Perhaps it's more than 99%, I'm not sure? They are simply making a swap to a Mustang GT SRA four link also known as a 'quadra-bind' by some racers. So giving me examples on how well set-up SRA's can go around corners in well set up race cars isn't explaining much when 99% of the people doing SRA swaps are not using those SRA improvements! :-D
The first example wasn't even a race car. It was a street car as I plainly stated. It's ok. I am done with this convo. It's like talking to a wall.
I pointed out that the IRS has more in common with the stock SRA than the stock SRA does with a GR40 many, many posts ago. Yet you still act as though it's a trump card.
Do you ever wonder why one of the first ways class racing restricts suspension modification in nearly any type of racing is by limiting modification of the factory pick up points? Do you figure that may be for a reason, or are they randomly doing it?
Does the gr-40 kit utilize a live axle?? Does it go around corners good? That's the only point I have in this whole stupid thread. I'll repeat myself again for the thick headed dumb asses in here. I refuted a statement saying sra's will not go around a corner and are only good for going in straight lines. Well they can go around corners. And they do. They can be set up to corner really well. Does the gt500, which pulls almost a lateral g on the skid pad utilize the stock mounting points? Oh yeah. It does all that stock. That's the only point I am trying to prove. If that makes me a hypocrite so be it. I am not sure how it does but whatever helps you sleep at night