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Rebuild & Port TVS 2.3 or Gen 4 Whipple 2.9?

Discussion in 'SVT Shelby GT500' started by azc0bra, Jan 5, 2021.

  1. azc0bra

    azc0bra Active Member Established Member

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    Long story short, I've been chasing a squealing sound from the car for a while. Changed a bunch of pullies (as some were bad), and now have found that my TVS has developed a large and rather loud squeel which I pin pointed by taking the aux. idler and changing belts. I now have a choice to make.

    My current setup is as follows:

    Stock 13/14 Trinity w/ 2.4 Lower
    ID1050X
    VMP BAP
    1 7/8" Longtubes, X-Pipe
    JLT 127 Intake
    SCJ Throttle Body
    Stock ATI Balancer, Kinetik Crank Saver
    Bunch of suspension/cooling stuff

    My car sees around 15-16psi with this setup and made 680whp with spiked 91 octane (couldn't empty the tank). I have an ATI 10% lower that I will be putting on as well. The goals for this car are mid 700s as it sits, and it will rarely be on straight pump gas. Car will see a decent amount of strip time, as well as some street miles.

    My original plan was to sell the Trinity and use some of that to fund a Gen 4 2.9 Whipple, and run that with the 10% lower and 3.0 upper pulley (and adjust as needed).

    Now that my Trinity needs help, I started looking into getting it rebuilt/ported by Jokerz Performance.

    Long term goal for the car would be mid 8-900whp, as I have another factory short block sitting on a stand that just needs to be built. I'm struggling searching through so many posts and threads and comparing graphs and seeing the gap in TVS mid-range and Whipple, but none have compared the newer Gen 4 Whipple and it's hard to find a direct comparison that is unbiased. I like the idea of having a new blower with a warranty, but also think the TVS would be like new once I get it back from Jokerz. With the cost of the Gen 4 so low right now, I'm looking at about $1000 more to get the Whipple, and I can try and sell the TVS to someone looking for one to port/rebuild if that is the better choice.

    Anyone have any advice or recommendations?
     
  2. PM-Performance

    PM-Performance Well-Known Member Established Member

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    If you know your goals will be 800-900whp, and the spread is minimal I'd do the 2.9 or 3.0 honestly.
    I am in the same boat as I will have a built motor and e85 going forward. The Trinity will do it, but you will be pushing it to do it.

    To be honest, I see little to no value in porting one as the price of porting vs sales price and money saved on port would buy the Whipple.
    You can port it all you want, but it will never move the air that a larger blower can IMHO of course.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
    HKusp likes this.
  3. Catmonkey

    Catmonkey I Void Warranties! Premium Member Established Member

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    I'd get a bigger blower with your expectations, but I think you're going to need a built bottom end at some point to realize the potential. The Gen 4 makes a lot of sense at that price point.
     
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  4. 68gtscode

    68gtscode Well-Known Member Established Member

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    I hesitate to respond because I am not very familiar with the Trinity TVS or Gen 4 Whipple, but still have some potentially useful input. I had an 09 GT500 with a Whipple 2.9 (I believe Gen 2?) along with long tubes, etc. Shaun at AED tuned it, and it did 700rw on 91 and 730 on 93. Although I liked the car well enough, it wasn’t nearly as fun as the Whipple 2.3 Cobra it replaced. The Cobra with the little Whipple spun hard had so much more low and mid range, and instant throttle response. It was great with a stick. I put 4.10s in the GT500 which helped, but it was still a very heavy, lumbering car. My next Mustang was a 13 GT with a Gen 2 long block, cams, long tubes, etc. with a VMP Gen 2R. It made mid 700s on 93 and 840rw on e85.

    Its a bit difficult to compare that car to the GT500 because it had a built 6R80 with a converter, and the coyote is a higher spinning engine, but that little TVS ripped! I can’t help but think it would be a better blower for a heavy first gen GT500 at the 850rw level than my Whipple 2.9 would have been. Perhaps the Gen 4 2.9 or 3.0 make more mid range? If not and you’re content with the power capability of the TVS, that is the direction I would go for a heavy street driven stick car.
     
  5. azc0bra

    azc0bra Active Member Established Member

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    Thanks for the replies. I’m absolutely leaning towards the Whipple, I just have never ridden in a Whipple car to know the difference. If I did rebuild the TVS I’d almost certainly port it because it’s being taken off the car. I originally thought the Gen3 (not R) made sense but seems like everyone has been displeased with those and many have been sold. I also was not a huge fan of the adapter a few other things.
     
  6. Catmonkey

    Catmonkey I Void Warranties! Premium Member Established Member

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    The 2.65 Gen 3 has been showing "out of stock" on VMP's website for most of 2020. I'm thinking it's simply been replaced by the 3R and just hasn't been removed from the website. I don't think there's a whole lot of power difference between the two up to ~900 rwhp, but the 3 tapers off and the 3R keeps making power. The big monoblades the 3 was designed around didn't pan out, so there's no reason to market and peddle it.

    Whipple's Gen 4 and 5 leave the Whipple Gen 2 technology pretty far behind, so they're not comparable platforms. With the Christmas discount, the Gen 4 is "used blower" cheap for a brand new blower.

    I'm not knocking the 2R TVS, but it's starting to run out of steam beyond 800 rwhp. To take advantage of E85 and/or cams, you have to spin it pretty hard and at that point, I just think a bigger blower that has the ability to deliver more boost at more reasonable blower rpm levels. It becomes a better option, but bigger also comes with a cost. I think the 2R is the perfect blower for a bolt-on, pump gas 5.4.

    All blowers are going to have a sweet spot and if you match that sweet spot to your actual rpm range and airflow requirements, you should be a happy camper. One reason you see such fat torque curves for the 2.3 on pump gas is it makes good boost in the low and mid-range, where a bigger blower is out of it's efficiency range and is down on boost until it's spun at higher rpm. Torque is a function of horsepower. Typically a bigger blower is going to make better power at the peak, but I think you have to analyze power in between. On the other hand, the 2.3 is somewhat tapped out if you start doing mods that demand greater airflow. I think some of the newer blower technology is focusing on better boost output at these lower rpm levels than their predecessors.
     
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  7. azc0bra

    azc0bra Active Member Established Member

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    Welp... I pulled the trigger on the Gen 4. Hope to have it all swapped over in the next few weeks and will post a comparison when I can get it on the dyno. Thanks for all the replies, I think this is the best option for going forward and having more headroom in the future.
     
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  8. tampasnake

    tampasnake Premium Member Premium Member Established Member

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    I'm late in the response here but I will say I had a similar dilemma with myself last year. I choose to have Jokerz rebuild my TVS. Brett is a great guy to work with. After all said and done hind sight is always 20/20. I should have bought the Whipple. I think you made a good decision.
     
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  9. azc0bra

    azc0bra Active Member Established Member

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    Good info for anyone who is in our same shoes! Thanks for sharing.
     
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  10. bg302

    bg302 Member Established Member

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    I had a Gen 4 2.9 Whipple on my 2012 GT, until I lost the battle with Colorado emissions last year. That car was amazing with the Whipple on it. Put down 630 RWHP at 10 PSI and it pulled hard through the entire RPM range.
     
  11. biminiLX

    biminiLX never stock Premium Member Established Member

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    $1000 extra to have a new Gen 4 Whipple 2.9 is better use of funds, but push it hard.
    Otherwise a fully maxed ported Trinity will still support 850rwhp on a built 5.4 with cams and running E85.
    My ported Gen2R VMP 2.3 rotor pack made 965rwhp SAE on my built cammed E85 5.8, so those 2.3s can get the job done.
    Good luck.
    -J
     
  12. PM-Performance

    PM-Performance Well-Known Member Established Member

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    How much hotter though is that lil Trinity gonna get it done at though?
    I am planning on pushing mine on my new build just because everyone wants Trinity's for nothing, so I am keeping it. I planned on E85 and Cams this time as well so I expect to see into the 800's on mine. I am ceracoating my headers this time as well to try and mitigate any unwanted engine bay heat. I would have preffered to run a 2.9-3.0 Whipple, but I refuse to give away a blower that can get into the mid 800's wheel range for nothing. People do under estimate these blowers.
    Ported, I have seen these dip into the mid 900's on 5.8's cammed

    I have a friend though spinning his regular Gen2 on his Coyote to like 830's range I think. He never complains about heat soak or losing power for some reason. Somehow that thing just takes it.
     
  13. azc0bra

    azc0bra Active Member Established Member

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    That was my thought, hard to pass it up. I ended up getting $700 for my TVS that needed to be rebuilt and picked up one of the last Gen 4 2.9's I could find. Plan to run it with a 2.875 pulley/10% lower and race gas and see what happens! I understand it can be done with the 2.3, but I wanted to potentially see a lower blower RPM for the slight reduction in heat, and have the headroom in the event I build this short block in my garage at some point. Plus E85 is kind of a a pain to use here, most of our pumps only offer E50ish and are not very close to me.
     
  14. biminiLX

    biminiLX never stock Premium Member Established Member

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    I have some cooling mods plus an ice tank, so I never had IAT2 issues. Heat soak can effect both. People tend to forget that for some reason the TVS rotor pack does fine with overspinning, so unless you’re talking Gen 5 3.0, I’m not sure I’d see a huge gain on an older 2.9 over the 2.3 TVS.
    -J
     
  15. biminiLX

    biminiLX never stock Premium Member Established Member

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    Honestly, if you are the serious sort, grab some E98 and spike your E50 when going hard or all the time.
    The E50 is still better than pump 91/93 but if you’re going race gas, that gets pricey.
    Cams are a great upgrade too.
    Good luck.
    -J
     
  16. PM-Performance

    PM-Performance Well-Known Member Established Member

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    I have some cooling mods already. Talking to Mike a L&M, he even said going any further than I did is pointless for a streetcar. I was all ready to buy a nicer brick and bigger lines, but he basically made it seem like whether I get 10 seconds before heat soak, or 15 seconds before heat soak, was it really worth it in the end? He assured me if its a street car unless I have a 30 gallon tank full of ice and 1" lines its gonna heat soak regardless. And even then I still maybe only have a minute or so on it until the ice melts.

    All my friends with bigger blowers and ice tanks and better bricks all have worse heatsoak problems than I do, so I am glad he saved me some money by confirming what I already felt was the case

    Yes, the TVS rotor pack tends to take the abuse though on being spun hard. So I guess screw it. Ill keep it around. Sure it doesnt look cool or get anyone excited when you talk about it, but it gets the job done.
     

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